Clinton advisers tell of protesting Rich pardon

Nolan was accused of being "deliberately unclear" about details surrounding Hugh Rodham during her testimony

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Three of former President Clinton's most senior advisers told a congressional committee Thursday that they had opposed a pardon for financier Marc Rich.

"I think the president knew that each of us opposed the pardon," said former White House counsel Beth Nolan during the sometimes contentious House committee hearing.

Nolan, former chief of staff John Podesta and adviser Bruce Lindsey told the House Government Reform Committee of the unanimous -- and at times heated -- objections they raised over the pardon to Clinton.

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The committee is investigating whether the Rich pardon was linked to donations by his ex-wife Denise Rich.

But although the adviser disagreed with Clinton on whether the pardons should be granted, they were issued on their merits, not because of campaign contributions or donations to Clinton's presidential library.

"We never discussed any matters having to do with any of the things that have been alleged by his critics," said Podesta. "There was no wrongdoing."

Earlier, Beth Dozoretz, a Democratic fund-raiser and friend of Denise Rich, invoked her Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination and declined to testify.

"Upon the advice of my counsel, I respectfully decline to answer that question based on the protection afforded me under the United States Constitution," Dozoretz said when asked if she ever discussed donations with Clinton in connection with the Rich pardon.

Dozoretz's attorney, Thomas Green, had said on Monday that she would decline to testify because of a criminal investigation into the matter by the U.S. attorney in New York.

Podesta said "there was no wrongdoing"

Rich fled to Switzerland 17 years ago to avoid prosecution on racketeering, wire fraud, income tax evasion and illegal oil trading charges. His was one of 140 pardons that Clinton granted in his last hours in office on January 20.

Denise Rich has been a major contributor to Democratic campaigns and the Clinton presidential library foundation. Dozoretz has pledged to raise $1 million for the Clinton presidential library. The House committee is looking into whether those actions had any impact on Clinton's granting of the pardon for Rich.

Podesta, Nolan and Lindsey all said they recommended that the pardon be denied, but supported Clinton's decision-making process.

"I believe that President Clinton considered the legal merits of the arguments for the pardon as he understood them, and he rendered his judgment, wise or unwise, on the merits," Podesta said.

Committee Chairman Dan Burton, R-Indiana, asked why, on the night before the pardon was granted, Nolan did not more strongly express her objections.

Nolan testified that she had asked Rich attorney Jack Quinn , not the Justice Department, when allegations arose that Rich had been involved in forbidden arms dealing since leaving the country after being indicted in 1983 for tax evasion and racketeering.

"This was a very, very serious thing. It should have sent up red flags all over the place," Burton said. "And to ask the defense attorney for his counsel on this and not ask the Justice Department when you're going to be pardoning one of the most wanted fugitives in the world ... just doesn't make sense. It just doesn't pass muster."

Lindsey, along with Nolan and Podesta, said he had recommended that Clinton deny the Rich pardon

Nolan admitted that had it not been for the pressure of the final hours of the administration and the lack of sleep for her and the president, it might have been handled differently. However, she said she still did not know if those allegations were true.

Nolan was the target of harsher questioning from Barr, who accused her of being "deliberately unclear" in her testimony when she said she was not certain that a petition on behalf of Glenn Braswell came to the White House from Hugh Rodham, the president's brother-in-law.

"Are you asking me to testify to facts I don't remember?" she asked.

"Why would I do that?" Barr responded.

"Sir, you seem to be objecting to the level of my memory."

"That is true, I do object to the level of your memory, it's apparently pretty low," Barr said.

Three Democratic panel members jumped to her defense, including Henry Waxman, D-California, who said, "I don't think any witness should be treated in a shabby way as I thought you just were."

Podesta, in an opening statement, said that Clinton was urged by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak to support the Rich pardon, and that four days before granting the pardon Clinton said he thought Quinn had raised valid arguments.

Dororetz declined to testify on Thursday

Podesta, Nolan and Lindsey all testified they saw nothing in the administration's pardon considerations that indicated a quid pro quo or legal wrongdoing was involved.

President Clinton waived executive privilege, allowing his former advisers to appear without a legal dispute.

Many committee questions concentrated on whether another former close Clinton adviser, deputy counsel Cheryl Mills, played any role in the last-minute pardons.

Mills left the White House for private practice not long after her role in defending Clinton during the impeachment proceedings, but remained an informal adviser to the first family and was a regular visitor to the White House even after leaving the staff. She also is involved in Clinton's presidential library.

Lindsey said he invited Mills to join in a discussion with Clinton on January 19 about Clinton's negotiations with Independent Counsel Robert Ray because of Mills' familiarity with related issues. He said Clinton brought up the Rich pardon during that meeting, and Mills asked some questions about it but expressed no opinion.

Podesta and Nolan admitted that late pardon requests -- many of them from members of Congress -- may have overwhelmed the White House staff in the administration's final days.

"We were really inundated with pardon requests ... from members of Congress, movie stars, newscasters, former presidents, former first ladies," Nolan said. She said that by Christmas she already felt there were too many requests to give full consideration to all of them.

Podesta said that in the case of some late requests from senators and congressmen, the ones who asked "basically just didn't care if we followed Justice Department guidelines."

One in particular, he said, involved a request from Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, and Sen. Fred Thompson, R-Tennessee, on behalf of James Howard Lake. That pardon was granted.

"We bear the responsibility for having a process that we thought was manageable that in the last days, I think, broke down and let some of these (late pardon requests) go through," Podesta said. "There are very few that came up -- and I would put Rich as probably the number one example, in which the process broke down. I don't think the president got good and full advice on it."

Presidents and the power to pardon
House panel opens new hearings into Clinton pardons
February 28, 2001
Clinton waives privilege in pardons probe
February 27, 2001
Lawyer: Clinton ally won't testify on Rich pardon
February 26, 2001
Stuart Rothenberg: Clinton actions hurt friends and help adversaries
February 22, 2001

House Committee on Government Reform
The Democratic National Committee
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