Q & A: Mary Robinson on China's human rights record

Mary Robinson acknowledges applause from Chinese Vice Foreign Minister Wang Guangya after her address during the seminar 'Punishment of Minor Crimes' in Beijing

CNN Beijing Bureau Chief Rebecca MacKinnon talks to UN High Commissioner on Human Rights, Mary Robinson.

MacKinnon: My first question relates to your main purpose for being here, which is to run a seminar dealing primarily with China's labor reform system.

The system is outside of China's criminal justice system and people, including political dissidents and members of the Falun Gong group, are being held without having had a formal trial. Do you think the labor reform system should be abolished?

Robinson:Yes, I hope on very serious review that it will be abolished because I think it is contrary to international human rights standards, particularly in the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights. That's a covenant that China has signed, but must now be examining what changes need to take place for ratification.

MacKinnon: President Jiang Zemin has indicated to your boss, Kofi Annan, that China may soon ratify the U.N. Covenant on Economic and Social Rights.

Robinson: I understand it's going before the National People's Congress in these few days. And I would hope before it goes through the third reading there that we are very close to ratification.

MacKinnon: A number of dissidents have appealed to you just in the past day for the release of political activist Xu Wenli, who is being held on a long jail sentence and whose health is very bad. Are you going to appeal to the Chinese government on his case?

Robinson: What I normally do, and will do this time, is take opportunities to raise individual cases and that certainly is one case that I will seek to raise in my discussions with various ministers, including this time the foreign minister.

MacKinnon: Another major issue right now is the Chinese government's crackdown on Falun Gong. The government says that it is not a human rights problem -- that in fact the crackdown is protecting the human rights of the Chinese people by saving them from what it believes is an evil cult. How are you going to respond to this?

Robinson: I've had a number of discussions with the Chinese authorities, including President Jiang Zemin, on the Falun Gong. My focus at this point is not so much the background to or the reasons for people adhering to Falun Gong, but how they are dealt with by the authorities.

They certainly have human rights that must be respected, and I think really my message is that much more regard must be had to ensure that there is no violation of those human rights.

My office receives a lot of complaints about torture, ill- treatment, severe penalties for demonstrating. It's not for me to make a judgment of how China views Falun Gong generally, but I can and do express very deep concerns about how individual members are treated by the system. That's the main concern.

MacKinnon: Are you concerned that perhaps you and the Chinese government may be operating on different planes of logic when it comes to defining and perceiving human rights?

Robinson: I've been aware over the last three years and particularly since the first official visit in 1998, that there is a process of deepening the relationship. I have no doubt about that. And it's very important, because China does have different approaches. It has a different approach to the definition of crime. And that's one of the problems about the wide scope of re-education through labor.

I have understood more deeply this time that there is a requirement under existing Chinese law that re-education through labor contradicts Chinese law, and therefore there must be amendments. And my task is to persuade the Chinese authorities, to ensure that that change conforms with international human rights standards.

MacKinnon: Are you concerned that while there are signs of progress in legislation, that in certain cases, on certain issues it seems that the regime's survival seems to supercede the need to protect human rights or to adhere to legal procedure?

Robinson: Yes, to an extent. There are certainly changes that I welcome, and an increasing focus on what the Chinese call rule by law, which means a legality of approach. And in a way, my task is to say, yes it's important to have rule by law, but also there is the human rights component of rule of law -- that it must comply with international human rights standards.

I'm particularly concerned in three areas that I raised before -- the fact that there are still such constraints on freedom of political expression, freedom of expression generally; the fact that freedom of religious belief is still very constrained; and freedom of association, which is particularly relevant to the covenant that I hope China will ratify in the very near future -- the Covenant of Economic and Social Rights.

I hope that there will be no reservation on article eight, which deals with trade union rights. China has already accepted the fundamental principles founded by the International Labor Organization and accepts freedom of association. I hope therefore that there won't be any reservation.

MacKinnon: Do you think the life of ordinary Chinese people will change, in any significant way, as a result of this ratification?

Robinson: Well I do see changes. I see an opening up of society here in the hope of joining WTO this year.

What I also see is inequalities -- the fact that certain people are advancing very rapidly and others, particularly in the west of China, are finding that the standard of living is dropping and access to education and health care is dropping.

This is where human rights comes in as a very strong support. If the Chinese people generally can see human rights as being very relevant to them … and that there be more equality of opportunity and access here in China for the vast majority of the Chinese people, that is important.

MacKinnon: The United States is expected this year to sponsor a resolution in Geneva condemning China's human rights record. Do you think such resolutions are productive?

Robinson: Well firstly, I don't know what the situation will be during this coming Commission on Human Rights.

Secondly, I keep a distance. That is very important for my own work between the inter-governmental commission on human rights and the issues that it addresses. Once a Commission resolution has been adopted and a mandate, for example, given to a special rapporteur, then my office and I completely support that process.

But I don't engage in that particular discussion because I feel its extremely important to have the integrity of my own mandate as High Commissioner. It's a non-political, non-selective mandate and that enables me to work very closely with any country that is addressing human rights problems and there is no doubt in my mind that China is addressing the problems.

It's a country of nearly 1.3 billion people, and it has to build up a whole system. But it is committed to rule by law, I wish it would have more courage in a way in opening up to political debate. I know that it is encouraging the media here in China to probe and to be more outspoken and I welcome that.

MacKinnon: As of course you know, Beijing is bidding for the 2008 Olympics. Human rights groups have criticized this bid and said that China doesn't deserve to host the Olympics because of its human rights problems. What's your view?

Robinson: Well I don't have any view on where the Olympics will be held in 2008. That's a matter for the Olympic committee. But I am aware that it can be a context where a country will try to show its best face in a rather superficial way. My task is to insure, for example with this workshop, that it has real substance, that it has very practical recommendations, that those recommendations go to the National People's Congress and are very widely known.

I hope the people here in China would be very aware of this workshop. I would welcome media attention during the workshop to what we'll be discussing.

MacKinnon: Have you been satisfied in your previous visits about the kind of media attention and publicity that your visits have had within China?

Robinson: In a sense yes, because it has helped me to show that my approach is two-fold -- that I'm working very closely and deepening the working relationship through our memorandum of understanding with the Chinese authorities.

The next step will be the police and human rights, and human rights education. But also that I must, and do, retain a critical voice. I have to speak out. I spoke yesterday evening about the issue of torture. There was a recent Amnesty (International) report dealing with the extent of torture. I'm pressing for a visit by the special rapporteur on torture, Nigel Rodley, and it's very important that the Chinese have accepted that I operate very firmly in raising human rights issues as well as discussing how we can move forward constructively. I think the relationship has been built on in that way.

MacKinnon: The Chinese government has not acknowledged or accepted the fact that torture is as big of problem as human rights groups say it is. What is your message to the Chinese government on torture?

Robinson: Well first of all very few countries will publicly admit the extent of the problem of torture when it is identified. I think the most important thing is an acceptance of the international human rights mechanisms.

I would judge it as being extremely significant that Sir Nigel Rodley come on a working visit as he has again reiterated his wish to do. I also believe that it is important that the legal aid be extended, that people have access to lawyers to pursue their appeals, and again that the media here follow cases. I've been aware of some recent cases that are very striking, where it was the media that highlighted a situation of torture or ill-treatment. That's extremely important.

MacKinnon: Do you think it's possible to achieve your standard of human rights under a regime that doesn't allow for real political challenge from outside the ruling party?

Robinson: Well first of all it's not my standard. It's a guarantee as a birth right to everyone. That is what the Vienna declaration and plan of action said, that international human rights are the birthright of all peoples and every individual. So it is very important that that message gets home. It's more difficult when there is not an openness in political debate. Its one of the issues that I raise each time.

It's important for China's development that more space is created for political diversity and political expression. It's in the interest of sustainable security, which I know is a very important issue, understandably, in such a very large country.

So I think the way in which China is evolving is helping to reinforce a climate for, not for just rule by law, which is important, but also rule of law which is that guarantee of the birthright of international human rights to every Chinese citizen.

MacKinnon: So you're an optimist in the long run?

Robinson: I think you have to be optimistic in human rights work because you have to address a lot of problems with a framework that is positive , that is forward looking, and as I say is the entitlement of people. I'm not giving, it's not my standard, it is the international standard China is accepting by the fact that China has already ratified the convention against torture, the convention against the elimination of racial discrimination, the convention of the rights of the child and is now addressing the two covenants and hopefully is about to ratify the Covenant on Economic and Social Rights. That is setting that standard for Chinese people.

See related sites about Asia

Note: Pages will open in a new browser window

External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive.