Britain's queen: Fairy tale or tragedy?

Queen Elizabeth II is celebrating 50 years on Britain's throne

NEW YORK (CNN) -- Larry King recently posed the question: Is the life of Britain's Queen Elizabeth II a fairy tale or tragedy? Following is a transcript of the show:

Joining us in New York is Robert Lacey, the best-selling biographer and veteran royal watcher. His new book, finally out in America, is "Monarch: The Life and Reign of Elizabeth II."

In Washington is Kitty Kelley, the best-selling biographer and author of "The Royals." In London is Harold Brooks Baker, the publishing director of Burke's Peerage, and Hugo Vickers, best-selling biographer and veteran royal watcher.

Robert Lacey, with your book now out and published in America, we thank you very much for joining us. Is -- I don't know how we rate this, but is Elizabeth a great queen?

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ROBERT LACEY: Well, of course, it's difficult to compare her to the first Elizabeth who was the executive head of state. Elizabeth II, our present queen, plays a totally different role from the time of Queen Victoria, really. The role of monarchs has not been to run the country but to reign. And reign means inspiring affection, inspiring feeling, being the embodiment of the country both to the country itself and also, of course, to foreign nations who look to Queen Elizabeth II as the figurehead of Great Britain.

KING: Her father died young, did he not? What was he, 52?

LACEY: Yes, he was the -- well, one of four British kings in the last century to die of smoking related causes. And of course, that brought her to the throne at a comparatively early age, in her twenties, and that's why -- well, we think of her still, I suppose, as quite a young woman. I mean, she's 76. I suppose that's something to do with the long survival of her mother, the Queen Mum. And perhaps one of the things that the queen has had to cope with in the last months is becoming, all of a sudden, from middle aged to elderly.

KING: Kitty, in your opinion has she acquitted herself well as queen?

KITTY KELLEY: I think she's been quite dutiful, very dignified. I certainly don't think you could compare historically to Elizabeth I. I mean, there was an outpouring of the arts and culture and history and military triumph. It was a whole different era.

This Elizabeth came in to the monarchy and has sort of presided over the diminution of it, if you will. She's now head of the Commonwealth. A very dutiful queen.

KING: History, Harold Brooks Baker, will say what of her?

HAROLD BROOKS BAKER: I think history will clearly state that Elizabeth II is one of the best loved and respected monarchs of all time, and she was certainly the best informed of all time.

Queen Victoria read letters from all of her ambassadors in the field and was considered very well versed in what was happening. Elizabeth II has gone that one step further of knowing absolutely everything you possibly can imagine about her countrymen and her courtiers and the guy in the street. It's really very impressive.

And the great respect the people have had for the queen has now turned into great love and admiration, the type of love that people displayed toward her mother, the Queen Mother, who died recently. It's very, very impressive.

KING: Hugo Vickers, will she live out her term? Will she stay until she dies or will she give it up and let Charles become king?

HUGO VICKERS: Well, you know, Larry, there was a very exciting moment in Westminster hall the other day when she received the addresses from the two houses of parliament when she stated that she had every intention of continuing, and I must say I felt like a soccer fan. A great cry of "Yea!" went up in my house. I think it's very good.

She becomes more valuable as she goes on. She has been dealing with prime ministers since Churchill. The present prime minister, as we've said before, wasn't even born when she came on the throne.

She has an enormous accumulation of experience, so the longer she stays, the better.

KING: Robert Lacey, did she handle the aftermath of the death of the death of Princess Di well?

LACEY: Well, that's something I address particularly in my book. In the end, it turned out very well. But of course there was that moment right in the middle when the people called for her to come down to London. They protested at her for not lowering the flag. And now here we are, we're actually looking at her speaking to the nation but also to those crowds outside the palace who'd gather around to pay tribute to Diana.

The Queen with Diana, Princess of Wales

I think this speech of hers was the high point of her reign. It was a moment of great crisis. She had to go on live, and she had to express her own feelings about Diana, both positive and negative, in a way that people found convincing. Everybody knew that Diana and the queen did not get on that well in many respects, and yet the queen managed by being honest but by also concentrating on her positive virtues, but her mothering of William and Harry in particular, to pay a tribute with which everybody agreed.

KING: She has had, Kitty Kelley, a lifelong, almost, love relationship with her husband, has she not?

KELLEY: She has indeed. She was lucky enough to marry a man she really fell in love with, and one thing Robert points out in his book that's quite funny, he says that the queen has chosen as her favorite animal this snapping, nasty little dog known as the Corgi. And for a woman who chooses the Corgi, she can certainly get along with the Duke of Edinburgh.

He has been by her side all these years. He pledged to be her liege man. And say what you will about his dalliances, he is still there at the end of the day, and I think he brings an awful lot to her and to the monarchy.

KING: Harold Baker, what's the relationship between the queen and Charles?

BAKER: Well, I think it's obviously a relationship of great respect. They've had their differences. He has set up a completely independent organization at St. James Palace, as you know.

His idea on press coverage is very different than his mother's. But there's every indication that they are coming closer and closer together as the years go by, and I think that with the death of the Queen Mother, they'll be even closer. Of course, he will be the one who will be chosen to fill in constantly for the queen when she is unable to attend certain ceremonies. But of course, since she's an anointed monarch, she will remain on the throne until death. And I think it's very likely that Prince Charles will never be king, because the queen could last another 25 years.

KING: Hugo Vickers, what is Elizabeth's feelings about Camilla?

VICKERS: Well, we don't really know what her feelings are. I imagine she has to treat that one with some -- it's a rather difficult problem. Because there you have this kind of strange middle-aged pair who seem to be very content in each other's company. On the other hand, there are all sorts of complications in connection with any possible marriage.

But I have gone on record in the past and I stick to it by saying I don't think the Prince of Wales particularly does want to get married again. I don't think that the state of matrimony was one that made him particularly happy.

KING: Robert Lacey, do you agree with that, that they will not get married?

LACEY: I don't agree, no, with Hugo. I know that's his position. It's a matter of, obviously, intense debate in Britain. Prince Charles once did go on record as saying he had no plans to remarry.

Interestingly, last year, when a sly reporter poked the question at him and took him a bit by surprise about whether he was going -- if he had marriage plans in his future, he said, "Who knows what the good Lord will bring?"

Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles

And I myself interpret the press relationship that Harold's been talking about as definitely a campaign to soften up the British public, who will be the ultimate arbiters of this, for a regularization of his marriage -- of his relationship to Camilla, and I think that will be marriage. I don't think she'll be queen. I mean, British people, when asked about this, now are pretty relaxed in saying let bygones be bygones.

And then these same people when asked will say, no, we don't want her to be queen. And I think that will be dealt with by giving her some sort of title. Prince Charles has got lots of them -- Duchess of Cornwall, Duchess of Rothesay -- so just as we now have a queen and a Duke of Edinburgh, if Charles makes it to throne, and I quite agree that he may never make it, then he'll be king and then his consort, his wife, will be duchess of something, and I think ultimately the British people will want that.

They wouldn't want a king with a bit of stuff on the side. They want it to be regularized.

KING: Kitty Kelley, is there still a fairy tale aspect about the queen and the monarchy in London or has that changed?

KELLEY: Oh, no. I think that's the -- that fairy tale aspect, that fantasy, is what keeps it going for so many people. Absolutely. And I think that that fantasy is one of the reasons why there was such an outpouring when the Princess of Wales died, because it was a fairy tale that did not come true.

The princess did not live happily ever after. And I think people become invested in that kind of a fantasy. They become invested in the royal family. They identify with the royal family. They adored the Queen Mother. She was like everybody's grandmother. They look up to the queen. They forgive her for not being a good mother because she's a dutiful leader. They care about this family. They laugh at them. They make fun of them. But they still are invested in the fairy tale, and it is the fairy tale, I think, that keeps the monarchy alive.

KING: Harold, what did Queen Elizabeth -- what does Queen Elizabeth think of Fergie?

BAKER: Well, I think that if you really want to -- if you really wish to know what all these people think, read Mr. Lacey's book. It is one of the best books on the subject that I have ever read in my life. And he doesn't leave anything out, but he is clever enough not to be too controversial, so that he doesn't really offend anyone as far as the Duchess of York is concerned. I think that Fergie, as the public wishes to call her, is more and more respected as a person, but of course she's not the favorite of everyone at the palace. But you see that she is slowly coming back into her own.

KING: Robert, what does the queen think of Fergie?

LACEY: Well, to start with what we do know, we do know that Prince Philip does not approve of Fergie. He thinks that she brought enormous damage to the family and in the past. And, you know, it's a speculative line. She's now a wonderful mother -- well, she always was a great mother, but, you know, people do wonder whether that marriage between Charles and Diana might have lasted -- everybody knows about the Camilla factor, but if there wasn't a sense in which Fergie was egging the princess on in her antagonism.

Certainly that's what Prince Philip feels. We know that because at Christmas time we had this bizarre situation of all the royal family going to Sandringham and Fergie's daughters being in the big house, and Fergie being away, down the road in a farm, because of Prince Philip's disfavor, but we also know that the queen goes to visit Fergie, which I suppose at the end of the day, gives us some indication who really wears the trousers in the big relationship.

KING: Hugo Vickers, the queen's relationship with the late Margaret, who died a while ago at age 71. What was that like?

VICKERS: Well, the queen and Princess Margaret, and indeed the Queen Mother, were extremely close to each other. There was a lot of telephoning that went on between those three households.

They were a very, very strong triumvirate. It was a good and very intimate relationship. For example, if ever the queen went on a trip somewhere, state visit -- for example, if she went to China or India, then Princess Margaret would always go round to see her as soon as she came back on order to hear all the stories and see the pictures and things. No, that was very close.

So it has been a sad year for the queen, losing both of them. And for this reason, I for one very much hope that she will, you know, that what is already happening in this country, that the Golden Jubilee is a great success and everybody is celebrating and having fun and giving her a good boost.

KING: Robert Lacey, did you get interviews inside the palace?

LACEY: Yes, with a lot of people close to the queen. One never, of course, interviews the queen herself. I've been privileged to meet her. When you meet her she is -- but not interview her -- but when you meet her, she is immensely more lively and humorous than she appears in public.

She is, of course, a woman totally without vanity. I mean, it's not every woman who would cheerfully put on the crown like that and wear glasses with the strings hanging down from her ears. I think that's one of the reasons why she's lasted so long in public esteem in Britain. She has this word "stunt," which is her disparaging word for gimmicks.

She's been a gimmick-free queen for 50 years. And as compared to politicians, I think people more than ever now find that very refreshing.

KING: New Smyrna Beach, Florida. Hello.

CALLER: There was a discussion at one time of Princess Anne being able to succeed to the crown earlier than the current status. Whatever happened to that conversation?

KING: Kitty, do we know?

KELLEY: Well, right now she cannot do it. But there is a bill, I think, in the House of Lords so that she would be able to succeed down about three generations in line of where she stood. In other words, the first in succession would be Charles, the second would be Anne, then Andrew, and then Edward. Right now, as it stands, it has to pass from Charles, and this is saying that there aren't any children.

Let's say that none of the boys have children. Right now it has to go Charles, then to his brothers. And his sisters -- his sister would be way, way down the line. But now Charles, after the death of Diana, in an effort to make the royal family, the monarchy, more relevant, proposed two or three things, and one was that a woman could succeed in line, as Anne, and also I think he wanted to open it up to the Catholics in the United Kingdom. Please correct me if I'm wrong, gentlemen.

KING: Robert, is she right or wrong?

LACEY: She's certainly right about Prince Charles. And what will happen in the future, because, as Kitty says, the fact that Charles has children now means that the succession goes through him, but there has been a proposal put forward by this way ahead group, of which Prince Charles is a member along with the queen, that in the future it will be the first born child who succeeds whether that's a boy or girl. But it hasn't got to Parliament yet, so it's not the law.

KING: Robert Lacey's new book is "Monarch: The Life and Reign of Elizabeth II." We thank him and Kitty Kelley and Harold Brooks Baker and Hugo Vickers for joining us.