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INSIDE AFRICA

INSIDE AFRICA: South Africa: '10 Years of Freedom'

Aired April 24, 2004 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TUMI MAKGABO, CNN ANCHOR: South Africa, the post-apartheid era 10 years after the first multiracial elections. The people tell how the last decade of change has impacted their lives. The complex task of trying to correct the wrongs of the past. Just where is the middle ground?

We'll also look back on the dark days of apartheid and see how far the nation has come in healing the wounds.

Plus, an exclusive interview with President Thabo Mbeki.

It's "South Africa: 10 Years of Freedom" on this special edition of INSIDE AFRICA.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

Hello, and welcome to this special edition of the program. I'm Tumi Makgabo.

April 27 is observed as Freedom Day in South Africa. That's when apartheid -- a system of institutionalized racism -- came tumbling down a decade ago. In its place: a new multiracial democracy. It's that democracy that's under the spotlight this week, as we look at "South Africa: 10 Years of Freedom."

Certainly, much has changed in the country, but what is striking is the stability the people have enjoyed and the relative racial harmony that exists.

Our correspondents, Charlayne Hunter-Gault and Mike Hanna, are standing by to help us take stock of the last decade of freedom in the new South Africa.

We go first to Charlayne Hunter-Gault in Pretoria, where the official celebration will be held -- Charlayne.

CHARLAYNE HUNTER-GAULT, CNN JOHANNESBURG BUREAU CHIEF: Tumi, South Africans are getting ready for one big party to celebrate their 10 years of freedom. Behind me, they're busy dressing up the Union Building, where the inauguration of the president is going to coincide with this celebration.

Over 6,000 people from here and abroad will be joining in those celebrations, and they will be joined by some 50,000 people down on the lawns at the seat of power. No doubt all of them will see, as we have seen, some new South Africans.

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HUNTER-GAULT (voice-over): This is the new South Africa, pregnant with possibilities. Young, black South Africans, like Nkhensani Manganyi, confidently taking her place on a stage once reserved for whites only -- bringing a child into the world without the same worries about the future her mother had.

Gary LaGrange has his own ad agency, and is also part of the new South Africa -- an Afrikaner who grew up in a system that favored him, but no longer.

Tsidi Bishop is a television journalist, no longer rare in the new South Africa. Her British husband, Chris, is also in media. But what makes them part of the new South Africa is they won't be arrested for being an interracial union, as they would have been in apartheid South Africa.

The Bishops and their friends are among many South Africans today whose lives are not defined or limited by color.

CHRIS BISHOP, PRODUCER: Some of the stories I hear about the hostility that we would have got and the looks and the comments and the spitting on the street. I mean, and you look at it now, I mean, nobody -- I mean, people just walk past. Nobody even looks twice.

HUNTER-GAULT: Tsidi Bishop is looking forward to a very different life for her 4-year-old daughter than the one she had in the poor township blacks were forced to live in.

TSIDI BISHOP, JOURNALIST: And sometimes I would be very pressed, and I would pull my mother's dress and say, 'I've got to relieve myself right now.' And my mom would say, "We still have to walk, not here, we're not allowed."

HUNTER-GAULT: Fashion designer Nkhensani Manganyi's memories of life without freedom are also fresh.

NKHENSANI MANGANYI, FASHION DESIGNER: I saw army troops. I was in crowds that were tear-gassed. We had been kicked off buses.

HUNTER-GAULT: But those images are fading.

MANGANYI: Post-1994, there has been a really big psychological change in individuals such as myself, where all of a sudden you were living in a country where things were very possible, a country that's alive with possibility.

HUNTER-GAULT: This is the stuff of memory for Nkhensani now, the design she creates in her company, Stone Cherry -- designs celebrating a new African consciousness.

MANGANYI: For me, I think it's a conscious brand that is an expression of something far beyond the frivolity of fashion.

HUNTER-GAULT: Gary LaGrange celebrates a reality far different from the one he was born to.

GARY LAGRANGE, AD EXECUTIVE: I was raised in a conservative family, the conservative Afrikaner background. I was raised partially on a farm. You know, black people came to the back door.

HUNTER-GAULT: During his national service in the apartheid army, LaGrange's job was taking pictures of activists in the townships fighting his government.

LAGRANGE: So, we were just doing the dog's work.

HUNTER-GAULT: LaGrange left the country when the black-led government came to power 10 years ago, but South Africa didn't leave him.

LAGRANGE: It's in your blood. After three years away, living and working in Miami, which is a great place, but I'm not an American.

HUNTER-GAULT: LaGrange found that both he and the country had changed.

LAGRANGE: Yes, there are still a lot of problems, and that's OK. You know, we'll deal with them, too. Give us another five years, and we'll get past that, too.

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HUNTER-GAULT: South Africa may not yet be the rainbow nation its first black president, Nelson Mandela, dreamed of, but the country is clearly breeding a new generation who can make that happen. At the same time, the government is designing policies to help make that happen -- unapologetically promoting affirmative action, the advancement of blacks at all levels of society.

We look at one such case at one of the country's premiere institutions and its medical school.

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HUNTER-GAULT (voice-over): Young medical students working to fulfill dreams of becoming healers -- a long, hard road for most, even longer and harder for medical students like 22-year-old Sistelo Bangani. Sistelo was admitted into a program especially designed for students from disadvantaged backgrounds. His grades: lower than many whites who applied and didn't get in.

PROFESSOR NIABULO NDEBELE, UCT VICE CHAIRMAN: It is a concerted attempt to change the historical trajectory that we've been on of discrimination and affirmative action on behalf of white people in the past.

HUNTER-GAULT: At universities like this, at least half of the student body is now black, many admitted with lower grades than rejected white applicants, including at the university's medical school.

The dean here remembers the apartheid days when even he was not allowed to live on campus or examine the specimens from white cadavers unless they were in a jar. Apartheid history makes him passionate about the black admissions.

NICKY PADAYACHE, UCT MEDICAL SCHOOL DEAN: Our history of 12 years of seriously-disadvantaged, second-class education, they do and perform if you provide an environment because they have the potential. There is something special about them.

HUNTER-GAULT: A 23-hour drive and many cultures away, Sicelo Bangani takes us on a walking tour, showing us some of the special hurdles he had to leap to make it to UCT, not least overcrowded, overheated classrooms, some even without desks or teachers. But he had no help in preparing for the medical school exam. Now he returns a hero, and not just here.

At home, Sicelo is welcomed by an extended family, who have invested their own dreams in him. They've come from all around to see him and his visitors from CNN.

Sicelo's mother, a single parent who raised four sons with the help of relatives.

Unlike many white students, Sicelo was surrounded more by cows than computers, but the discipline of his chores helped prepare him for the discipline needed both to get to UCT and to deal with the multiple challenges he faced.

SICELO BANGANI, UCT MEDICAL STUDENT: Academically, I really struggled at first and would be (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to actually even hold a microscope.

HUNTER-GAULT: Sicelo believes the special considerations of students like him is completely justified.

BANGANI: I look at my white friends, and I don't think really -- not that I blame them for anything. They have never been exposed to the kinds of challenges that we are, and I don't think they understand them. And I wouldn't really expect that much of them as to go and make change in places like these will come from.

HUNTER-GAULT (on camera): Rejected white students didn't want to talk about being turned down in favor of blacks, but others spoke about not being black enough.

(voice-over): Despite straight A's, Ajna Maharaj (ph) was turned down for medical school by four universities she applied to, including the University of Cape Town.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel that I am a victim of the system, and it's so unfair.

HUNTER-GAULT: Ajna's (ph) father says he believes the promise of South Africa's first black president, Nelson Mandela, has been broken.

PRIM MAHARAJ, FATHER OF REJECTED MEDICAL STUDENT: And he defined blacks as being Indians, coloreds, whites and Africans. We were overjoyed to listen to this, only to find that when it matters most, then you're not a black that they want in the society.

HUNTER-GAULT: University officials refused to discuss individual students, but insists their procedures are fair.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

As more and more roads open to young black students like these, the challenge for the rainbow nation is how to keep them moving forward while holding on to other colors of the rainbow, whose dreams are being deferred -- Tumi.

MAKGABO: All right, Charlayne Hunter-Gault in Pretoria.

So, are the wounds of the past totally healed? We'll examine that after the break as we go back in time to the dark days of apartheid and the difficult path of reconciliation.

And later, an exclusive interview with President Thabo Mbeki. Don't go away.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm very pleased Nelson Mandela is free. Mandela is the freedom of the new South Africa.

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MAKGABO: Those were some of the images on the day that Nelson Mandela was released from prison in 1990.

Well, as South Africa emerged from the shadows of apartheid, there were concerns about how to make amends for the atrocities of the past.

For that part of the story, we turn to Mike Hanna in Johannesburg -- Mike.

MIKE HANNA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Tumi.

I'm standing on the Nelson Mandela Bridge, just one of the many changes in a society transformed. But it's a process of change that has not been without pain, for in building a new and better future, South Africa has had to confront its past.

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BISHOP DESMOND TUTU, NOBEL PEACE LAUREATE: We are charged to unearth the truth about our dark past, and that will thereby contribute to the healing of a traumatized and wounded people.

HANNA (voice-over): The Truth and Reconciliation Commission, headed by Nobel Prize winner Desmond Tutu, a forum for the victims of apartheid to tell their stories, to reveal what really happened in the days of white rule, and an avenue for those who repent past actions to seek forgiveness. It was a process, painful and cathartic.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: May I ask the Africans to turn around and face me?

HANNA: Here, three activists come face to face with the husband of the woman they had killed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We are asking from you, please do forgive us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want you to know that I forgive you unconditionally.

HANNA: And one of apartheid's agents comes clean about his past.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My method of interrogation was torture.

HANNA: And today, as the nation celebrates 10 years of democracy, a recognition that the process of truth and reconciliation was necessary, and that it worked.

Earlier this month, Limpho Hani held a memorial service for her husband, Chris (ph), a senior African National Congress leader who was gunned down by white right-wingers 11 years ago.

LIMPHO HANI, WIDOW: As a human being, I find it very difficult. But we live in a bigger country, where we stop thinking about ourselves, and then we think of the future of our country and of our children.

HANNA: Albie Sachs is a judge on South Africa's supreme legal authority, the Constitutional Court. The new court premises have been built on the site of a notorious prison, constructed by an Afrikaner leader in the late 1890s.

ALBIE SACHS, SOUTH AFRICAN CONSTITUTIONAL COURT: We knocked out the British, and the British won the Anglo-Boer War and knocked out the Boers, and the Boers got political power and knocked out the blacks, and someone had to say enough already. And it's our generation. We're the "enough already" generation.

HANNA: On April the 7th, 1988, Albie Sachs lay wounded in the streets of the Mozambiquan capital, Maputo, the victim of an apartheid agent who had placed a bomb in his car. He lost his right arm and the sight in one eye, but did not lose the willingness to reconcile with those who had maimed him.

SACHS: I don't see the word as "forgiving." Somehow that's not it. It's moving forward, embracing the new, and, what I call myself, vengeance, is living in a democracy, is living in a constitutional state, is living in a society based on the rule of law. That's immense to healing. And to send one rascal to jail, that doesn't signify very much. But when I voted for the first time as a free and equal person in the land of my birth, it was like roses and lilies were growing out of my arm.

The No. 4 prison, the worst of the prisons, is now a site of memory of people to visit, and right next to it is the new Constitutional Court of South Africa.

HANNA: Now the guardian of the democratic constitution, one built on the principle of reconciliation, Albie Sachs' soft vengeance is complete.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

It's a standing joke today that no one can be found whoever supported apartheid. But in a society where so many freedoms are taken for granted, it's hard to remember exactly how repressed it was in the past. For example, a vigorous, free and independent media is taken for granted, but it was not always that way.

Here's what it was like to report in the old South Africa.

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HANNA (voice-over): South Africa in the 1980s, a time of sorrow, a time of dead, and a time the state decided to kill the messenger. Cameramen shot, dozens of journalists arrested, a welter of security legislation aimed at silencing the media.

DAVID HOFF, MEDIA LAYWER: It's really quite bizarre when you think about it. Yes, it's sort of thought if you kill the messenger, you'll kill the message.

HANNA: In a nationwide state of emergency, the security police seemed to be everywhere. Filming these peaceful scenes at a township school in 1986 was, according to the officers who soon arrived, a contravention of the law. Confused and befuddled as to what could or could not be reported, the journalists turned to the lawyers for guidance.

(on camera): How does it differ from the old emergency regulations?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There has been a lot more specifics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And if the police there are dispersing what they would regard as an unlawful gathering, you can't film it.

HANNA: The contentious sequence under discussion, a group of elderly women carrying balloons, attempting to deliver Christmas presents to political detainees in prison.

The only official source of news was the Bureau of Information, which held daily briefings in the capital, Pretoria.

On this occasion, we were told, we could not even report our own questions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you want to report on that? I say no.

ANTON HARBER, JOURNALISM PROFESSOR: They tried to draw a line in front of all of the critical areas of South African life, what was going on in the prisons and what was going on with the military. And all of the most difficult and complex areas they were trying to cut off and leave certain areas free in order to keep up at least the fa‡ade of openness.

HANNA: Anton Harber was editor of the "Weekly Mail" newspaper, a constant target of government action and which was constantly exploring ways to highlight the repressive legislation that governed its existence.

HARBER: In fact, I think you would find a front-page here with lines blanked out. And part of what we had to do was constantly demonstrate to readers the fact that there was censorship. And, in fact, they passed what became known as the "Weekly Mail" law at one point, the "Weekly Mail" regulation, which is a regulation which said in a most (UNINTELLIGIBLE) fashion that you could not have an obliteration or a blank space that referred to the state of emergency.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it was panic desperation, and also I suppose just trying to keep the whites comfortable.

HANNA: Today, those whose words were outlawed, whose faces were unseen, whose organizations were banned, are the leaders of a country in which freedom of information is constitutionally guaranteed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of that restrictive legislation has been abolished. There's a lot more openness, and our presses are very, very free.

HARBER: That's not to say it won't face future threats, that vigilance isn't needed, but certainly we're strengthened by a strong Constitutional Court in protecting it, and also journalists who are ready to stand up and fight for it, as they did in the past.

HANNA: Earlier this month, I joined millions of other South Africans in casting a vote, a democratic process that after 10 years continues to hold its sheen, and perhaps this is the most potent weapon against those governments that would kill the messenger.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And times have indeed changed.

Back to you -- Tumi.

MAKGABO: All right, Mike, thank you very much.

In just a moment, the unresolved issues and the process of closing the economic gap. We'll put that under the microscope with our guest in Johannesburg, so stay with us for that.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela, you will hereby serve, to be faithful to the Republic of South Africa.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MAKGABO: Two former South African presidents, Nelson Mandela and F.W. de Klerk, receiving the Nobel Prize for steering South Africa towards a multiracial democracy -- those images that you saw there from the inauguration of Mr. Mandela.

Well, today there are concerns that democracy may be in jeopardy. Opposition politicians fear that strength of the ruling African National Congress may lead to a one-party state -- something reminiscent of the post-colonial era in many African countries.

Well, to discuss that a little more, we are joined from Johannesburg by Khehla Shubane, a former political prisoner who is now one of the leading political analysts in the country.

Khehla, good to have you with us, and welcome.

I guess the first question, in your sense, does the ANC simply have too much power?

KHEHLA SHUBANE, POLITICAL ANALYST: It could probably be argued that the electoral power that the ANC has is way too much, but you cannot blame the ANC for that. The electorate has decided that the ANC is an appropriate party to govern the country, and it's been given an overwhelming majority to do the job, yes.

MAKGABO: Well, you may not be able to blame the ANC, but many do blame an ineffective opposition. Why is the opposition seemingly so ineffective?

SHUBANE: I think the opposition parties have not come to terms with the reality of what we have currently in South Africa. The electorate doesn't seem to be receiving the messages of the opposition, and in a sense I think the opposition is far too stuck in what used to be messages that were appropriate in the past. They simply haven't addressed the issues that need to be addressed today.

It is when the opposition starts engaging with the population that I think the sort of majorities that we see in parliament today would be reduced a bit.

MAKGABO: Well, you say they need to engage more with the electorate. How do they set about doing that?

SHUBANE: I think none of the opposition parties, save possibly for the DA, for example, has a comprehensive enough set of policies. If you vote for any one them, you're simply voting for personalities or you're voting against the ANC. And the electorate has decided that they want to vote for a party that has an elaborate set of policies on a range of issues -- economic, social, foreign affairs and all of that. And none of the opposition parties address all of those issues as comprehensively as the ANC does.

And I think we're still fresh from the past the ANC is the best party to address the fears that the majority of the population might have in respect of the past.

Having said that, I must emphasize, though, that the ANC has tried to embrace the range of South Africans, both black and white. And I believe that they are just correct in addressing the fears, the wishes, and the likes of all of those constituencies.

MAKGABO: Well, I don't know how many people are going to agree with you in saying that they are just correct in the way in which they're addressing these issues. There are many people in townships throughout the country who would gravely disagree with you, saying 10 years down the road, I still have no job, I'm still not any more able to put food on the table for my family, and that is at the core of many people's grievances.

SHUBANE: You're correct, Tumi. Lots and lots of people have lost their jobs. Lots and lots of people don't have food on their tables. But the party best able to address those problems remains the ANC. This economy has had to go through very fundamental and massive restructuring, and the ANC has carried that through. But I think in parties in such the ANC that has...

MAKGABO: All right, Khehla, I'm sorry to interrupt you. I'm going to have to ask you to just hold that thought. I'd like you to pick up on that in just a moment.

We're going to take a quick break. We'll have more on 10 years of democracy in South Africa next. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MAKGABO: Hello again. We'll be returning to our guest in just a moment.

"South Africa: 10 Years of Freedom" is this special edition of INSIDE AFRICA.

First, let's take a look at the efforts that the country has been making in trying to move forward. There have been concerns that while blacks may now have political power, the economy is still largely in the hands of the white minority. To correct that, the government has introduced a rather controversial policy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAKGABO (voice-over): Meet Lesogo Sonelo, a manager at Deloitte & Touche accounting firm in Johannesburg. The 26-year-old is from the sprawling black township of Soweto, where generations of young, black South Africans grew up with almost no hope for the future, denied economic opportunities because of apartheid.

The ANC-led government's affirmative action program is designed to help people like Lesogo assume their rightful place in the job market. It aims to narrow the economic gap between black and white South Africans. And some companies, like Deloitte & Touche, have special units or departments that deal with affirmative action.

Lesogo joined the company as a trainee in 2000, two years after leaving college. She admits that affirmative action may have helped her career, but adds that her skills were a major factor.

LESOGO SONELO, MANAGER, DELOITTE & TOUCHE: I think affirmative action policies have opened the doors, but I actually believe that you need to work hard to get there. You need to have the right will, the right determination, and acquire the relevant skills to get the position that you want.

MAKGABO: There are many stories like Lesogo's -- young, black professionals whose economic fortunes have changed significantly, thanks in part to affirmative action. Yet, there's a debate in South Africa over just how successful the policy has been. Blacks still make up over 80 percent of the country's unemployed workers and occupy just 5 percent of management positions.

Some critics blame this on the shortage of skilled black workers, but Peter Marite, a Soweto resident, sees it differently. He's a trained electrician, who says he's been unemployed for six years with a wife and daughter to feed. He calls affirmative action a failure, saying government has not taken the necessary steps to compel the private sector to employ blacks.

PETER MARITE, SOWETO RESIDENT: Companies are only encouraged to (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and they were never even given quotas, or to say probably after so many years, companies that have employed quite a number of or a certain number of people must have attained a certain level of black empowerment, so to say.

MAKGABO: Then, there are those who see affirmative action as a form of reverse discrimination. Renee Wright is a qualified and experienced marketing manager who has been looking for work for the past nine months.

RENEE WRIGHT, UNEMPLOYED: As I've gone to quite a few interviews, I've (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of interviews with companies. I go through to the unemployment agencies. And they said to me, I'm sorry, it's all affirmative action.

MAKGABO: Renee believes the only solution to her problem would be to leave the country or set up her own small business.

This business executive believes that people like Renee should be encouraged to go into business for themselves. Dumisani Khoza is a veteran of the anti-apartheid struggle, who now heads a technology company, Sefikile (ph). He's also in charge of helping former members of the ANC's military wing, Umkhonto We Sizwe, resettle in the community. His primary goal, he says, is to encourage the former militants to turn to the small business industry.

DUMISANI KHOZA, CEO OF SIFIKJLE: The way forward is really to create an environment in the economy, where the small business person is able to come up with ideas and to create an opportunity where he's able to hire or he or she can hire three or four people.

MAKGABO: As the debate continues, many South Africans agree that affirmative action is necessary to correct some of the imbalances of the past. But just how it's implemented remains the sticking point, and many on both sides of the argument wait for their chance to enjoy the economic benefits of the new South Africa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

That certainly seems to be at the crux of many people's frustrations.

We return now to Khehla Shubane, our political analyst, who joins us from Johannesburg.

Khehla, we interrupted you a little bit earlier. You were explaining to us your sentiments about the frustrations that so many people feel.

Let's look a little bit closely at that. Affirmative action is one thing, but it seems thus far that the people who have benefited primarily from it are the black middle classes and perhaps the upper classes. Where does this leave the majority of people who are struggling to feed their families?

SHUBANE: My take on that, Tumi, is that South Africa is desperate to enlarge the middle class, and the emphasis should, in my view, be on creating a huge black middle class. But at the same, I think the country should focus on the white middle class.

Having said that, though, I think efforts should be directed at addressing issues of poverty. And, happily, the government is doing that. Massive amounts of money are being spent on housing, on health, on education. And those are precisely geared at ensuring that people who are less fortunate, who are not part of the middle class, are not left behind.

MAKGABO: One concern certainly is that it's one thing to say you have to address education, health, et cetera, in the poverty-stricken parts of the country. But let's talk about a phenomenon whereby, at the moment, many financial institutions, for example, are loathe to loan money to anyone who is poor because of fear of not getting their money back, which means that anyone who is already in a position of poverty is going to have a very hard time getting themselves out.

SHUBANE: That's true, and that's because the race techniques that big financial institutions are using are such that they are likely to leave out a great deal of the non-conventional things that this economy might need. And, again, the government has stepped in there, providing guarantees and providing institutions that provide credit to small emerging firms that don't have a history of financial management. And a great deal of people are benefiting from this.

I must admit, though, that those who are benefiting are few relative to people who are waiting to benefit of it.

MAKGABO: And one cannot discuss the situation in South Africa without touching on HIV/AIDS. Certainly, the government is saying that they are willing to provide medicines to people who perhaps previously may not have been able to afford them. But it seems that delivery is quite different to making a promise and a pledge.

SHUBANE: Sure, you're correct, too. I think there's been a huge amount of prevarication on the HIV/AIDS issue. Happily, we are moving away from that, and we're moving to a situation where government resources are being mobilized to provide all of these antiretrovirals that are required by a variety of people. And, happily, clinics around the country, almost 80 or so of them, are now providing these medicines.

The issue now is to address the constituency of people who are living with the HIV/AIDS issue to get to these facilities and get the help that the government is offering. But I do admit that a huge amount of time has been wasted on issues that have not helped this debate and this issue at all.

MAKGABO: Khehla Shabane, again, thank you very much for joining us.

And still ahead on the program, an exclusive interview with South African President Thabo Mbeki. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MAKGABO: Welcome back to this special edition of INSIDE AFRICA.

The man who has been at the helm of South Africa's transformation for the past five years is Thabo Mbeki. This month, he was elected to a second five-year term. He'll be inaugurated next Wednesday during Freedom Day celebrations.

Recently, he granted our Charlayne Hunter-Gault an exclusive interview.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. President, thank you for joining us.

THABO MBEKI, SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT: Thank you very much.

HUNTER-GAULT: How has the change from the reconciliation government of Nelson Mandela to the transformation government of Thabo Mbeki? How has that happened?

MBEKI: This is a continuing process of reconciliation, so it was not as though there was a period of reconciliation and now there's a period of transformation. There's a continuing process, both of reconciliation and transformation, and the two are interdependent.

HUNTER-GAULT: But in point of fact, the nitty-gritty details of making up for past discrimination have been left to your administration. Hasn't that been a more difficult task than, you know, national reconciliation and getting through the post-apartheid first period?

MBEKI: I would agree that we have sought to speed up the process of transformation, and I'm sure that we don't get the matter of national reconciliation defined in such a way as national reconciliation will succeed to the extent that you maintain and protect and defend the prepositions of the privileged, so long as they are comfortable in that, then we have a national reconciliation, which, of course, that's wrong. It must be changed. And you can't perpetuate the privilege of the past simply to reassure people that therefore there is national reconciliation.

HUNTER-GAULT: Isn't the economy still dominated by whites?

MBEKI: The economy is still essentially in the hands of white people. And to that extent, it indicates the distance we still have to travel to create a non-racial South Africa, which is what we say we're committed to.

So, it's something that we've got to try and push forward in the context of what we are saying about black economic empowerment. We've got to make sure that that process of black economic empowerment moves forward faster. We've got to allocate more resources to it, significant resources, to enable the emergence of black business people.

HUNTER-GAULT: You've talked about a massive public works program to help those at the bottom, because, as you have said yourself, there's a big skills gap.

MBEKI: It's a matter of moving, of acting. There is no constrained or obstacle to implementing a massive public works program to build infrastructure, for instance, using unskilled workers, but at the same time as they are working, training them so that they have some skills by the time they finish whatever the particular project might be. There is no reason why we shouldn't move, because I see the resources are there.

HUNTER-GAULT: There was a study recently that said as many as 100,000 public servants in South Africa were HIV-positive -- teachers and people critical to the functioning of this democracy. How worried are you about that kind of infection rate and that kind of threat?

MBEKI: Of course, we must be worried about the condition of health of all of our people, public servant or not public servant. And that would include people who might be either actual or potential AIDS sufferers. So, we must be concerned about that. And that is why the country runs a very big HIV and AIDS program affecting all elements of that kind of program.

HUNTER-GAULT: When you've been on the campaign trail, though, and have seen AIDS victims, do they touch your heart?

MBEKI: I'm saying that every person who is ill, whether they are suffering from AIDS or they are dying from TB or they are dying from other ailments, yes, people are dying from cholera, are currently dying from cholera, of course, they will touch your heart. If somebody is lying in a hospital, they are dying because of dirty water and unclean water, and we've got to solve the problem of clean water; otherwise, people are going to die. Death -- death for preventable reasons, of course, it must touch your heart, whatever the cause of death.

HUNTER-GAULT: And the antiretroviral program that the government is about to launch, what are your expectations for that?

MBEKI: Well, no different from expectations anywhere else in the world. I mean, the matter that we are concerned with is to make sure that we have the proper health infrastructure to do this, because they need very careful management. And bearing in mind what all medical science says that they don't destroy the virus, nor do they destroy AIDS. But they help to manage and give people a span of life that is perhaps longer than they otherwise would have.

HUNTER-GAULT: If you'll let me move to this other hot-button issue: Zimbabwe. How soon -- you know, your approach has always been to work quietly with both sides in Zimbabwe. How soon do you think we'll see an affirmation of this approach?

MBEKI: Well, I'm sure you have seen it. They've been talking. They continue to talk to each other. And I'm quite certain, as I've been before, that they'll find solutions. We keep urging them that in their own interest, in the interest of their own country, in the interest of their own people, not in the interest of South Africa, in their own interest they need to move that process forward quickly.

HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. President, South Africa in the last 10 years has re-entered the global arena as a major player, often taking positions different from partners in the West. What role do you see South Africa playing in the future, say in the next decade?

MBEKI: I think that there are certain things, I think, which are really quite obvious, which we must strive to achieve. One of them is the strengthening of the U.N. and the U.N. system, and the restoration of the United Nations Security Council to positions that were compromised, certainly by the war in Iraq and the processes leading to the war in Iraq.

We've got to attend all these challenges of African development -- political, economic, other development -- on the African continent, and make significant progress with regard to those challenges, entrenching the democratic systems on the continent, ending the wars and the violence, and changing the lives of the people for the better.

HUNTER-GAULT: Mr. Mbeki, thank you.

MBEKI: Thank you very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MAKGABO: South African President Thabo Mbeki speaking with our Charlayne Hunter-Gault.

And, of course, he'll be inaugurated on Tuesday, April 27. That is Freedom Day in South Africa.

And our special edition of INSIDE AFRICA continues next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MAKGABO: Welcome back, as we look at "South Africa: 10 Years of Freedom."

Since the end of apartheid, South Africa has become a major destination for international tourists. Determined not to let the past be forgotten, authorities have taken the necessary steps to make relics of the apartheid era part of the attraction for tourists.

More from Cynde Strand in Johannesburg.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CYNDE STRAND, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A highlight in this South African guidebook popular in the '70s is the Voortrekker Monument, a shrine to the Afrikaners, the creators of apartheid -- a system, a government, a tour book, excluding anyone not white.

Welcome to the new South Africa.

Meet Zulu's Cosa Bapeti Basutu (ph) and meet Baba Dlamini. At Lesedi Cultural Village, Baba Dlamini holds court and leaves visitors in awe.

BABA DLAMINI, TOUR GUIDE: They never knew about South African people. When you talk about South African people, you talk about Umundu (ph). And what is Umundu (ph)? Umundu (ph) that is hospitality.

STRAND: We're off to sample the hospitality of Soweto, with Lancelot Sello-Zuma.

LANCELOT SELLO-ZUMA, TOUR OPERATOR: Let's walk through this township. Let's meet people. Let's talk to people.

STRAND: His tours introduce visitors to the people of Soweto, from the new rich to the very poor.

SELLO-ZUMA: They've heard about it. They've read about Soweto. And now when they're here, to show them everything, and also correct those stigmas that they have about this place. I mean, it's a place of people. It's got life, and it's beautiful.

STRAND (on camera): This guidebook was dedicated to the wonderful roads of South Africa, but ignored the realities on the streets. In 1970 when this book was published, Nelson Mandela had already spent six years in prison, non-whites were being forced from their homes and dumped into segregated townships, and the black liberation movement was gaining momentum on the streets of places like Soweto.

This is the Apartheid Museum, where visitors can come and learn about what's excluded from this book.

(voice-over): Themba Mtwa takes his grandson, Sivu Elay (ph), on his journey -- a lesson in the cost of freedom, but one that no longer leaves a bitter taste.

THEMBA MTWA, SUWETO RESIDENT: I'm so glad that I am sharing it now with my grandson, explaining everything exactly as it happened and all that.

ALFRED SEGOWE, TOUR GUIDE: The skeleton dates back to 4 million years old.

STRAND: No history lesson here about Europeans colonizing Africa, but a journey back to the beginning, to the cradle of mankind.

Alfred Segowe takes great pride in leading tourists into these caves. Here, the fossils of our earliest ancestors have been found.

SEGOWE: This is where we originated, and no matter if you're from Europe or from where, that this is the cradle, this is where it all started.

STRAND: A postcard from the new South Africa is not just a picture of vistas and wildlife, but a picture of a nation celebrating its many cultures and its history, with a message about a long road traveled and that what makes us different is what makes us shine.

Cynde Strand, CNN, South Africa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MAKGABO: And speaking of pictures, it's time now to look back on the past 10 years in a picture form. To coincide with Freedom Day celebrations, award-winning South African photographer George Hallett has published a book that captures life during the first decade of freedom.

Hallett spoke with CNN's Phillip Littleton (ph) and talked about his motivation for the book.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE HALLETT, PHOTOGRAPHER: The book goes off into areas of magical realism, poetry, fantasy, photo-documentary realism, all kinds of styles, because there are 50 photographers in the book. The bottom line for the photographers was best-quality photography, even if you photograph AIDS, grinding poverty and unemployment -- and these are issues that's very important for all of us as South Africans -- you can photograph it poetically. You can bring all of the photographic skills to the fore, like a jazz musician. You know, you can play with reality out there in front if you're not distorting it and trying to soften the blow of poverty.

In '94, I think most of South Africans of all colors and classes went through profound psychological changes, including the poorest of the poor. You know what a great relief and how do you unburden all of that terrible racial obnoxiousness that was thrown at the people of color, suddenly it's gone, and you have a government and an army and a police force that supports you, protects you, that protects you. And it's a huge psychological change.

And for photographers working out there in all parts of the country, they picked that up. And you can see that young men adopted dreadlocks. You know, people's body language changed, and people were no longer cowering. They were walking with great dignity and somewhat noble stature in some cases. But they were cool. People became normal. You know, they were not afraid of the things that they were afraid of before, because those parameters have changed.

You cannot see the entire country in your lifetime, but if you have 50 photographers, you know, spread out all over the place, they can fine-tune and bring to the fore things that people are not aware of. The people of South Africa -- because I also photographed them, being an editor here was one thing, but I had to look at everybody else's vision -- is the incredible generosity, the reality and the spirit that South Africans have towards tomorrow, you know. There's a great, great feeling of generosity in the community.

They are the windows of our country's soul. They are the ones that tell the world how we see ourselves. So, therefore, photographers are the ones that will project the image of the nation. As communicators, they are showing the way forward, in fact. It's not so much about 10 years, it's about where we're at, because that took 10 years to get there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MAKGABO: That was photographer George Hallett.

Well, the views on just where South Africa is 10 years after apartheid may vary, but for many, the country is headed in the right direction.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAKGABO (voice-over): There is certainly no doubt that even after 10 years of democracy, there's much to be done in South Africa. The country's unofficial unemployment rate hovers at around 40 percent, while officially it's quoted at 28 percent. South Africa's crime rate is one of the highest in the world, and there's the HIV/AIDS pandemic dealing a severe blow to the population, as well as to the economy.

But what is most striking about the transition in the country? Perhaps Nobel Laureate Desmond Tutu sums it up best.

TUTU: We've had 10 years of incredible stability, you know? And maybe only people who have been unfree know what it means, hey, I'm free.

MAKGABO: With that freedom has grown an understanding of the responsibility that comes with democracy. And as often as people refer to the exodus of skilled labor, there's a renewed appreciation of the numbers of expatriates who choose to bear that burden.

And despite all of the doomsday predictions about post-apartheid South Africa, it seems Nelson Mandela's rainbow nation is slowly emerging, with the atrocities of the past forgiven, but not forgotten.

NELSON MANDELA, FORMER SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT: Never, never, and never again, shall it be that this beautiful land will again experience the oppression of one by another and suffer the indignity...

(APPLAUSE)

MANDELA: And suffer the indignity of being skunk of the world. The sun shall never set on so glorious a human achievement. Let freedom reign. God bless Africa!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MAKGABO: And that's our look INSIDE AFRICA for this week. I'm Tumi Makgabo.

END

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