Return to Transcripts main page
ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Vanished; Search Continues for Missing Pregnant Ohio Woman; Who is Jessie Davis?; New Offensive; Unbuilt Border Fence; "If I Did It"
Aired June 19, 2007 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We start with that.
Sue Redman joins me now on the phone.
Sue, we have a number of viewers who are just joining us now for the first time, so I just want to recap what you have just told us.
You found -- you came home a little bit after 7:00 yesterday evening and found a baby on your doorstep in a basket. What does the baby look like?
Try to get Sue. Sue, can you hear me?
We'll join up with Sue Redman as soon as we reestablish contact with her.
Right now, the search for Jessie, the latest on the investigation. We have new details there as well.
The Ohio woman was reported missing three days ago. It was Friday, a frantic 911 call by her mother who found her toddler grandson alone in Jessie's house. The house had been ransacked apparently. The 26-year-old was nine months pregnant, just days away from delivery.
CNN's Jim Acosta is standing by in Canton, Ohio.
Jim, what's latest?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest on the investigation is that big discovery that happened in Wayne County which is just the county west of the county that we're in right now. That is where Don and Sue Redman, that nice elderly woman you were just talking with on the phone, they, as she just told you, they found this baby about 7:45 yesterday evening as they were coming home from the grocery store. A beautiful baby girl, as she called it, sitting there in a basket on her front porch. And when she leaned over into that basket to check, as she has been telling you and our viewers, she found that umbilical cord still attached to this baby and tied with a black rubber band as I understand.
And then in that basket, some baby formula, some milk, diapers and so forth. Apparently, whoever dropped her off was at least trying to take care of her for that moment.
What we know about that baby now is that baby is now at the Wooster Community Hospital, which is in Wayne County, and the baby is said to be in good condition.
COOPER: And in terms of the investigation, DNA has been taken from the baby. What -- is there any other development in the investigation?
We know that a search was executed on the house of Bobby Cutts Jr. I talked to a reporter who had talked to him earlier in the day. He said they had consented to that search.
Any other details on where this investigation is?
ACOSTA: Well, you mentioned the DNA swabs on that baby. Understandably so, since Jessie Davis was two weeks away from her due date with a baby girl who she had already named Chloe. So it's only natural that they would do those DNA swabs.
Yes, they did execute that search of Bobby Cutts's car. He is the Canton, Ohio, police officer who is believed to be the father of this baby that Jessie Davis was carrying and also her 2-year-old son Blake.
He told that local reporter that you talked to earlier this evening that he is denying all involvement in anything to do with this disappearance.
Police have also released some new images of Jessie and they're hoping that the public will see those images and call police if they see her.
COOPER: I think we have those images, some of them from a surveillance tape which shows Jessie shopping in a store with her son in the basket. There are the images from the Stark County Sheriff's Office. Those are the last images we have seen of Jessie.
Joining us now on the phone again is Sue Redman, the woman who found the newborn baby just yesterday after returning home, found the baby in a basket on her and her husband's doorstep.
Sue, tell us for the viewers who are just joining us what did the baby look like?
SUE REDMAN, FOUND NEWBORN BABY ON DOORSTEP: Well, the baby was very small, was -- appeared to be a white child. She had a moderate amount of black hair. She was very, very beautiful child. I guessed her to be less than 6 pounds, and I think the official weight was 5 pounds, 15 ounces.
COOPER: You are a nurse. I'm not sure what kind of nurse. I don't know how many newborn babies you've seen. Did she look in any way premature or full term?
REDMAN: She looked full term.
COOPER: And there was an umbilical cord still attached?
REDMAN: A very healthy child. COOPER: A very healthy child. And there was an umbilical cord still attached?
REDMAN: Yes. A very fresh umbilical cord. It was still moist. And it was tied with a black rubber band. Which indicated to me this was a home delivery. And then it had -- she had a fair amount of thick mucus in her throat, which gave her some difficulty in breathing. Which further indicated to me she had not been suctioned out by a hospital. But probably a product of a home delivery.
COOPER: And you say the baby appeared white, not a mixed race at all?
REDMAN: No, it did not appear to be mixed race. However, I have learned that African-American babies can be quite white when they are born. But she was -- she was very white as I observed her yesterday.
COOPER: You are a nurse. It's known you're a nurse. Do you feel -- I understand you feel perhaps someone knew that you were a nurse and that's why this baby was left on your doorstep. Is that correct?
REDMAN: Yes, I was a school nurse at a junior high for 18 years and I developed a very close relationship with many girls. And I just really feel that this baby was given to me by someone who I know.
The way our house is situated off of the road in a rural area, for her to come to me was a very deliberate effort on someone's part to seek me out, knowing that I would provide good care to this child.
COOPER: They certainly, from what you -- from the way you're talking, they certainly picked the right household. It sounds like you did everything right.
Did police -- were they checking for fingerprints on the bottle, on any of the clothing or the basket?
REDMAN: Yes. They were going to do fingerprints on the can of formula and the bottle. The deputy explained to me they could take fingerprints off of hard surfaces much more satisfactorily than irregular surfaces like the basket. And I had handled the basket because I had picked it up and carried it in the house.
COOPER: Of course, sure. How long did you have the baby with you before police arrived and before -- you know, you at one point said to the officer, this baby needs to go to the hospital.
REDMAN: Well, we had the baby here probably less than five minutes before the deputy sheriff arrived. And then we probably had it another 15 minutes before the rescue squad came to take the child to the hospital. So probably 20 minutes altogether.
COOPER: You're about 40 miles away from Jessie Davis's home. Your gut feeling is there's no connection between this baby and the situation of Jessie Davis? REDMAN: I don't think there is. I just -- I feel very strongly that because of my strong relationships with young girls that this is someone that I know that hopefully will come forward, maybe contact me and I can help her through this, the rest of this process.
But you know, we were with the deputy for an hour-and-a-half before that case was even mentioned. It didn't even occur to us that it could be anything other than a local person.
COOPER: And just for the record, do you know Jessie Davis or any member of her family or Officer Cutts's family?
REDMAN: No, not at all.
COOPER: Well, Sue, again, they certainly picked the right house. I appreciate you talking to us and setting the record straight. Thank you very much, Sue.
REDMAN: Thank you.
COOPER: Sue Redman, who found this newborn baby girl just yesterday.
Investigators have a growing list of potential clues in the case from the bleach found on her bedroom carpet, to her missing comforter, to the infant girl found on a porch just miles away.
Joining me now is Lawrence Kobilinsky, associate provost at John Jay College of Criminal Justice and a professor of forensic science.
Compelling, Sue Redman saying she does not feel that this has any connection to Jessie Davis.
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, JOHN JAY COLLEGE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE: I find that very interesting. But I also find it hard to believe in such a coincidence. Timing is right for this to be the baby. I mean, we don't know. We won't know until we do the DNA testing.
COOPER: And that will take -- you say it can be done very quickly.
KOBILINSKY: I think it'll be done very quickly. It should take a day-and-a-half. I mean, they're going to bump this up to top priority. They'll do the extraction of exemplar samples from the crime scene. They'll have the DNA of the mother. They'll know for sure very, very shortly if indeed that is the right baby or not.
COOPER: And if it is the baby -- Jessie Davis's baby, that takes this entire case in a whole other direction.
KOBILINSKY: Well, it does. You know, I think we cannot eliminate the possibility that somebody committed this crime to get that baby. And I think that the evidence that we have is not only at the crime scene, but also in that wicker basket.
If in fact this is the right baby, then there's evidence there. It may be more than just fingerprints on that formula can. They can trace it, they can trace all of the items that were used to clothe or cover the baby, the wicker basket, all of that will be traced. It may lead us to something that we're looking for.
COOPER: Let's take a look at Davis's house. The bedroom was said to be a mess. This comforter was missing. There's now a photo of what the comforter looks like. A mattress pushed into a night stand. There was bleach on the floor.
Certainly, the fact that there was bleach there, that -- what you're seeing in the picture there is the picture that we have of the missing comforter. Obviously, that would be something if anybody saw that in a dumpster anywhere in the Ohio area or anywhere else, that would be something that authorities would want to know about right away.
KOBILINSKY: Yes, there's no doubt about it. I mean, we're going to try to find any kind of trace evidence that we can at either crime scene.
I'm calling that second site where the baby was dropped a crime scene. It potentially is. We have to take all precautions that we don't lose any information. But, I mean, this is going to require not only a criminalistics approach to collecting all the evidence and following wherever it leads, but also good police investigation.
When you put those two together and canvass, ask the public for help, perhaps this case will come together.
COOPER: The police had said the man who has had relationship with Jessie Davis, Officer Cutts, is not a suspect at this time. He apparently consented, according to what he told a local reporter, to a search of his home and his estranged wife's home as well, or she apparently consented as far as we know.
It certainly raises a lot of questions, but the fact that -- I mean, for a long time, the police have still just been ruling this as a disappearance though with obviously the suggestion of foul play.
KOBILINSKY: Well, clearly, they're saying that they don't know. They're not sure, but they have to treat this as a criminal event, because every minute that passes, every hour, every day that passes, information is lost, and the chances of bringing Jessie back alive diminish. So they've got to treat this as a criminal matter. They've got to look at everybody -- obviously, close friends, spouse, relatives. People that know her intimately are going to be on that list to look at. But again, we have to keep an open mind because this could just be some crazy person out to get that baby.
COOPER: Lawrence Kobilinsky, I appreciate it. Thanks very much.
More questions than answers really at this point. We're also learning more about the woman at the center of all this.
When she disappeared, Jessie Davis was a single mom, expecting her second child, living a pretty ordinary life that revolved around her family.
More on Jessie from CNN's David Mattingly.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): From the pictures, you can see that she is attractive, guess that she is popular, and suspect that the smiles come easily to her.
But what these frozen moments don't tell you is what Jessie Davis means to the people who know her best.
WHITNEY DAVIS, JESSIE DAVIS'S SISTER: She was just kind of the one that you looked up to. You know, she had done everything before everybody else, so we kind of would go to her to get advice for things. She was very nurturing. She would do anything for any of us.
MATTINGLY: Growing up, the oldest of seven children -- four girls and three boys. Davis ruled the house as the loving big sister. The family moved twice, before settling in Ohio years ago.
And younger sister Whitney says, it was Jessie who helped keep the siblings close and laughing.
DAVIS: She was so funny. You know, and she didn't have to try. She just could always make everybody laugh. You know, whether it was a joke or making funny faces at people, just, you -- she was always able to make everybody laugh.
MATTINGLY: Until the day she apparently vanished, Jessie Davis would talk with her siblings every day -- most of them, anyway. Even Whitney, and a brother, who both moved out of state.
DAVIS: She would call and she would talk to my brothers, my sisters, my mom, everybody, several times a day -- very close family.
MATTINGLY: According to her sister, Jessie's greatest ambition in life was to have a family of her own, a dream she realized, in part, with the birth of her son, Blake.
But the father was a married police officer, and is said to also be the father of Jessie's child, named Chloe, just weeks from birth. The Davis family will not discuss the relationship. But, just as she would leap to the defense of her siblings, Jessie's family bristles at people who might question her decision to have a child with a married man.
DAVIS: We know who Jessie is. We know exactly who Jessie is. You know, nobody is perfect. People make mistakes. But we know who she is and the kind of person she is.
MATTINGLY: Whitney Davis says there was never any talk from Jessie of an engagement. She worked as an underwriter for an insurance company to pay the bills. And she says her sister was happy with the tough choice of being a single mom, and independent enough, apparently, to pull it off. DAVIS: She's amazing. She spends all of her time with Blake. She would do anything for him. She didn't like spending any time away from him.
MATTINGLY (on camera): If this were a typical day, Jessie Davis would come home from work and spend the rest of the evening taking care of and playing with her 2-year-old son. Her family continues to hold out hope that those days will soon return.
David Mattingly, CNN, Canton, Ohio.
COOPER: Well, coming up, the evidence of a toddler. How do you question a 2-year-old? We'll ask an expert on the psychology of the young witnesses.
COOPER: Jessie Davis, last seen on Wednesday. One of the most disturbing pieces of information in this case is what her toddler son Blake told his grandmother when she found him alone last Friday.
Mommy's crying, he said, mommy's in the rug. Two-year-old Blake may be the best witness, perhaps the only witness police have.
Joining me now is Professor Stephen Ceci of Cornell University. He's a developmental psychologist and expert on child witnesses.
Professor, in your experience, how reliable is a 2-year-old witness like Jessie Davis's son?
STEPHEN CECI, DEVELOPMENTAL PSYCHOLOGIST: A 2-year-old is quite capable of giving you a lot of reliable information. But they're very capable of getting it wrong. It's more important than any other age group is how you approach and interview a child of this age. You make mistakes early on and you corrupt the memory and it's irretrievably lost.
COOPER: Because they're highly suggestive?
CECI: Yes, they're suggestive, but there's a whole basket of vulnerabilities that a child this age has and it also has something to do with whether he's closer to 24 months or 36 months, which I don't know what's the case with young Blake. I just know from the media accounts he's a 2-year-old, but it matters greatly if he's 28 months old or 32 months old as opposed to say 24 or 26 months old. Lots of thing happen over those early months.
COOPER: Do most police departments -- I mean, are they able to -- do they know this? Do they have people who are trained in dealing with very, very young children?
CECI: No, they don't. I mean, it's really exceptional to deal with a 2-year-old eye witness to a crime. And so therefore the training that forensic experts get is typically based on models having to do with much older kids -- 5-year-olds, 6-year-olds, 7-year-olds and older.
COOPER: Is it a matter of trying to get information quickly? I mean, is time of the essence?
CECI: Well, time is of the essence in the sense that there will be some forgetting, but the forgetting tends not to be the gist or the core information, it tends to be the more peripheral stuff.
So while there is some risk of losing that as time goes on, the central information will be probably well preserved.
To answer your question, you don't rush it. You have to let the child tell you in his own words as much as he's capable and willing to tell you. And this is really hard for police interviewers, as it for parents and the rest of us because your impulse is to ask a question and to prod the child to give you an answer. And a 2-year-old won't.
You can say to a 2-year-old, tell me in your own words everything that happened to Mommy that day. And the 2-year-old may tell you one or two very abbreviated things. And then you start queuing and suggesting and asking yes/no questions to pull it out of the child. And there's where the risk lies because you may suggest things that didn't happen, you may provide scripts that make sense to you as an adult, but don't make sense to the child.
COOPER: It's fascinating. We heard on various tapes the child actually saying Mommy's in the rug. And he seemed to be, according to his grandmother, repeating that over and over and over again. You know, not just when she first saw him, but even later on when she was doing media interviews, you could hear him in the background saying it. What does that tell you?
CECI: Yes. I mean, clearly this child has a memory of something that happened. He may in fact be the most important source of evidence in the case.
Whether he means a comforter for a rug -- a 2-year-old is going to use those things interchangeably. He won't know the word comforter. So he may be referring to Mommy being wrapped in a comforter. He may be referring to something completely different. It's really quite important to structure the environment in such a way that you can find out what words the child uses to describe different things and then see if the child can enact things without any suggestion.
And here's where the child's precise age becomes important. Because if they're...
COOPER: I'm sorry, go ahead.
CECI: If they're 28 or 30 months, then there's one way of doing this. If they're younger than that, then you have to do it a different way. COOPER: We've been getting -- I've been getting a lot of e-mails from viewers who are saying -- you know, who are following this along very closely and saying well, if he saw who did this to his mother or whatever happened to his mother, if in fact somebody did something to her, and he knew that person, he would be able to say that. Is that accurate?
CECI: He would. But it's really important with a kid this age that he's questioned in a very specific and precise way or you'll lose it. You'll forever corrupt or taint what he's capable of telling you.
If, for example, the father turns out to be the chief suspect in the case and you ask the question, did your dad do this? The child may initially say no for the very good reason that Dad did not do it, let's suppose. However, the next time you ask the child that question, if it's a 2-year-old, the child may say, gee, I remember something about dad doing that. And what the child is really remembering is thinking about his answer to the prior question. So these kind of source confusions are very common with very young children.
So you have to guard against that. You have to structure the interview environment in a very precise way...
COOPER: Wow, it's really...
CECI: So that you don't taint...
COOPER: It's really fascinating. Let's hope investigators have access to someone like you who knows how to do this.
Professor Ceci, I appreciate your expertise. Thank you.
CECI: Thank you. Good luck.
COOPER: North Canton, Ohio, has about 16,000 residents. Normally, a very peaceful city. Here's the raw data.
From 2001 until 2005, there were two murders in North Canton. Both occurred in 2003. Over that same period there were 10 forcible rapes committed and 37 robberies.
Just ahead, the U.S. launches yet another offensive against al Qaeda in Iraq and this one is big. So the question is why now?
Plus, the controversial O.J. Simpson book some call a confessional has found its way online. Coming up, a 360 exclusive. Fred Goldman talks to us about the leak and his seemingly unusual fight to get the book published.
COOPER: A massive truck bombing today in Baghdad. The blast killing at least 78 people, damaging an historic Shia mosque. Police today also found 33 bodies dumped across the city, bringing the number found this month to 359.
Meantime, U.S. and Iraqi forces have launched a major offensive against al Qaeda in the Baquba area of Diyala Province. It's called Operation Arrowhead Ripper, and about 10,000 troops are part of it. Commanders today claiming 22 enemies killed so far.
I talked about it earlier, what it means, the significance of it, with John Burns of "The New York Times."
COOPER: John, this offensive with 10,000 soldiers deployed against al Qaeda near Baghdad and also in Baquba, how significant is it?
JOHN BURNS, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": I think there's something of a now or never quality to this. This really is the critical moment of the surge that we've been talking about for the last four or five months. And what happens in the next two to three weeks, I think, will likely be decisive as to whatever chance there is remaining that the American military enterprise here can succeed.
COOPER: Really? You think it boils down to the next two or three weeks as the key time?
BURNS: I think they've got the forces in the right places. They know what the task is. They know they're going to take heavier casualties unfortunately. They have a pretty good idea from the intelligence briefings I have attend as to where the targets are, the al Qaeda principally -- al Qaeda targets are. Some of them in places where there has been little or no security presence at all in the past three years, never mind an American military presence.
COOPER: If they've known for three years or so, you know, where al Qaeda was and they knew that they were having free rein down there, why didn't they attack it sooner?
BURNS: Didn't have enough troops. Even now with 10,000 American troops committed, there's a large question mark that hangs over the availability of the pledged Iraqi troops.
COOPER: So if for the last couple of years, they've known places where al Qaeda was, but they couldn't get to them because they didn't have enough U.S. troops, was all that talk from administration officials, from military officials saying that there were enough troops under Rumsfeld, was that all just wishful thinking? Was it misinformed or was it outright lies?
BURNS: I guess you and I are going to have to leave that question to the history books.
COOPER: Did military officials you talked to, you went out with, did everyone seem to know there weren't enough troops?
BURNS: To speak of one senior commander with whom I traveled south of Baghdad last week, we looked at maps and he said to me, there has been no security presence in this area. There were identified centers of al Qaeda concentrations, SBBID as they call it, suicide bombing factories, places where attacks have been launched into Baghdad. They were ringed in red on the map and the commander said these people have had a sanctuary. They've had a sanctuary there now for some years. And we're going to go after them and we're going to try and bottle them up and we're going to try and kill or capture them.
So the logical answer to your question would be that at some point in the last three years, American commanders must have known they didn't have enough troops to deal with that.
COOPER: In one of the areas that this new offensive is focusing on is Baquba. I was there, I think it was a year, a year-and-a-half ago, and all the military guys were saying this is a success story. There's an Iraqi commander in Baquba who gets it. That was the term everyone was using. He gets it. I went out with him, drove around in his pickup truck, you know, walked around the marketplace with him. They said attacks were down there 70 percent. What's happened? I mean, it's now worse I guess than ever. What went wrong?
BURNS: I think that was -- I had a similar experience in Diyala several occasions. And I think that that was true at the time.
I think what happened was that American pressure in Anbar, to the west of Baghdad, and in Baghdad itself, caused al Qaeda and some elements of the Saddamist Baathist insurgency to relocate. And Diyala became over the last -- I would say six months, became the most troubled area in all of Iraq outside Baghdad itself.
So I don't think that they were misleading us then. But it's clearly deteriorated very badly -- very badly indeed.
COOPER: Early on in this so-called surge or escalation, it seemed like sectarian attacks were down or at least the bodies -- the number of bodies showing up in Baghdad were down. Today there was this suicide car bombing killed 78 people, tore through a Shia mosque. Last week, of course, the attack on a Shia mosque in Samarra.
Is sectarian violence just back now? The Foreign Policy Advisor Dr. Rubai told me, you know, no one's talking about civil war anymore, sectarian attacks, it's not happening anymore. That seems to be wishful thinking.
BURNS: Well, I think Dr. Rubai might do well to consult with again General Petraeus, who has himself said in recent days that there has been a disappointing upward tick, as they call it, in sectarian violence which went down in February, March.
And as the Americans prepare offensives, elections, surges, so the enemy responds with these attacks. The message of which is you don't control anything. And of course part of that message even perhaps a large part of that message is directed at the Congress in Washington, D.C.
COOPER: John Burns, as always, appreciate your time. Thank you.
BURNS: Thank you, Anderson.
COOPER: Just ahead, the battle over the border. A new fence paid for with your tax dollars. The question -- will it work? We're keeping them honest.
Plus, O.J. Simpson, his controversial unpublished book is leaked online. Tonight, Fred Goldman speaks exclusively to 360 about the leak, the book and why he himself wanted to publish it.
COOPER: Three defendants are being held without bail tonight on federal charges in El Paso, facing charges that they ran an immigrant smuggling ring. Authorities say would-be immigrants were charged $2,500 to be smuggled across the border. American truckers, they say, got paid $600 a head to do it. That is one front in the battle on the border.
The other involves a wall, 20 feet high in some places, next to useless in others. Controversial? Just about everywhere.
CNN's Ed Lavandera is on the border keeping them honest. He joins us with the latest -- Ed.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson.
This border fence in Laredo, Texas, was built two years ago. And as the federal government begins the process of building hundreds of miles of border fence from San Diego all the way down to Brownsville, people around here see this and it makes them wonder if a border fence will ever work.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look how close we are to the Rio Grande.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): Even on a nature walk in Laredo, Texas, it's impossible to escape talk of illegal immigration.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People who come up from Mexico, they walk along that wall. They know where it is. You walk on it and you can see them sticking out of the water just like that.
LAVANDERA: But you might be surprised to know these school kids walked right through a fence designed to keep illegal immigrants out to get here.
(on camera): You look just down this little bank, it runs right into the river and crosses over into Mexico. This is a popular crossing spot and oftentimes the water only runs about chest high. Then all you have to do is walk up these paths on this public nature trail and about 100 yards away from the banks of the river you get to this point which is where part of a border fence already exists. This is it. The door swings wide open. It's never locked. Anyone were cross any time of day.
JIM EARHART (ph), POLITICAL ACTIVIST: These kind of things do not stop people who want to cross, come across, to come across. I mean, there are ways around them.
LAVANDERA (voice-over): Jim Earhart (ph) is a retired science teacher turned political activist.
While the Border Patrol says this mile-long fence is only a deterrent, Earhart (ph) sees it as a symbol of why border walls will never work no matter what they look like.
EARHART: This a boondoggle spending all this kind of money for a border fence. That money could well be spent otherwise.
LAVANDERA: This fence through the Nature Preserve has been here for two years. But tens of millions of dollars are being spent on 370 miles of new border fence. So far 88 miles have been built in parts of California, Arizona and New Mexico; 282 miles left to go. The new wall is 20 feet high and hardly a pretty sight. The Border Patrol says it's money well spent.
AGENT CARLOS CARRILLO, U.S. BORDER PATROL: The approach that we're taking not only takes in consideration the operational requirements or concerns for border security, but it very much involves the input from the community, landowners and stakeholders.
LAVANDERA: Tom Miller doesn't think that will be the case. He runs the Nature Center where this fence was built in Laredo and helped negotiate its construction. Miller says that experience taught him the federal government likes to get its way.
TOM MILLER, LAREDO ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE CENTER: And once they get a foot in the door, and then that fence goes down, even with us. Once they started on the line, there was no stopping them.
LAVANDERA: And that scares many people around here who worry that a new border wall won't just alter the look of the Rio Grande, but that it simply won't work.
COOPER: So there are about 280 miles of fence left to build. What is the Department of Homeland Security saying about where that fence -- or when that fence is going to be built?
LAVANDERA (on camera): Well, the plans for completion are by the end of 2008, so we're probably about a year-and-a-half away from the rest of that 280 miles being completed. As to where exactly that's going to be and how it's going to look like -- is it going to look like something like this? Or is it going to look like what is already being constructed out in California and parts of Arizona and New Mexico as well is really hard to get a gauge on.
The Border Patrol and Homeland Security officials say they are consulting with border communities into how to figure out how to make that best happen. But that is something that is apparently not quite set in stone yet and is still being developed.
COOPER: Ed Lavandera reporting from the border.
Up next, O.J. Simpson's so-called confession ends up on the Internet. Tonight, a 360 exclusive. Fred Goldman, on the leak, O.J.'s book and why he has fought so hard to publish it.
COOPER: O.J. Simpson, of course, made major waves with his infamous manuscript about the murders of his ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend, Ronald Goldman.
The controversial book, which may be worth millions, has never been published. But today, the celebrity Web site, TMZ, posted it online, setting of a new legal fight.
Ron Goldman's family's hope to claim the publishing rights. A federal bankruptcy judge cleared the way last week. And until today, it was the best chance the Goldmans had to finally collect the money Simpson owes them.
Earlier, in a 360 exclusive interview, I talked with Fred Goldman and his attorney, Jonathan Polak.
COOPER: Gentlemen, thanks for being with us.
Fred, you are obviously upset about TMZ putting this online. A, do you know how they got it?
FRED GOLDMAN, RON GOLDMAN'S FATHER: No, I don't, but hopefully we'll find out.
COOPER: And what is the damage of them putting it online?
GOLDMAN: Well, I don't know that we've been able to assess the exact amount of damage, but there's no question that putting it on the Web site and in its entirety, for that matter, has severely damaged its value, to a point that we don't know yet that that dollar amount that it's damaged it. They've done so and did so for their own gain, obviously.
COOPER: And initially, they had a link in which anyone logging online could actually link to the entire manuscript. Is that correct? That's what I read in your court papers.
GOLDMAN: That's what we understand, absolutely correct. COOPER: When did you first hear about this?
GOLDMAN: I first heard about it this morning. I got a call from Jonathan, who said, I have some bad news for you. And it's unfortunately another slap in the face.
You know, we've gone 11 years trying to get this punishment, if you would, for Ron's murder, by getting this judgment honored. And the first asset that comes along that has any value of any kind that we're able to take away from the killer, now gets published by TMZ.
COOPER: How much does he owe you?
GOLDMAN: Well, the judgment originally was $19 million. It's grown to $38 million, $39 million now, because he certainly hasn't paid one single dime.
COOPER: And he gets money from his pension, and that you can't touch. Is that correct?
GOLDMAN: He gets money from all kinds of sources.
COOPER: But it's untouchable?
GOLDMAN: Well, a good part of it is, and we're at work, with Jonathan's help, in trying to make sure that that doesn't stay that way.
COOPER: Jonathan, you filed a motion of contempt against TMZ. We've got the copy of it here exclusively.
CNN is obviously owned by parent company Time Warner, which also owns TMZ.
What kind of retribution are you hoping for in filing this motion?
JONATHAN POLAK, GOLDMAN'S FAMILY ATTORNEY: We plan to hold them -- them being TMZ, their executives, their senior editor, Harvey Levin -- we're going to hold all of them accountable for the damage that they caused, whatever damage that might be. And if that damage runs into the tens of millions of dollars, then we're going to be looking at TMZ to write us a check.
COOPER: You know, some folks will say, look, freedom of the press. They're allowed to publish if they get this through sources. You're saying they're actually in contempt of court because of a judgment you guys got?
POLAK: Well, they did two things wrong. The first thing is they violated a federal bankruptcy court order that prevented anyone, including the press, from doing anything to diminish the value of this company's -- Lorraine Brook and Associates -- this company's assets.
This book and the right to publish the book is the only asset that company has, and it's as if TMZ came in and literally stole that asset from the bankruptcy court.
We have a hearing tomorrow afternoon at 2:00 o'clock. I fully expect that Judge Cristol, the bankruptcy judge, is going to have a lot to say about that, and I doubt that he's going to be very happy.
COOPER: Fred, when -- when this book was first announced, that O.J. had done this book, you called it sick. Why now the desire to have it published? Or how -- I mean, obviously I know why. How difficult a decision was that?
GOLDMAN: Well, our initial reason for putting what we felt was the kibosh on this whole thing was, one, we wanted to make certain that the killer didn't accomplish any income from this; and two, we envisioned it as the potential of a how-to murder two people book.
What we have found since is that he had well been -- long before been paid all of his money, $780,000, well before we found out about it. And the book now, more is the equivalent of, for lack of any other description, an admission of guilt. And I'd love people to read his admission of guilt.
Whether he calls it a work of fiction or not, or non-fiction, the fact is that he murdered two people, and I'd like everybody to hear him virtually say it.
COOPER: Gentlemen, appreciate you being on.
Fred Goldman, as always, thank you.
GOLDMAN: Thank you.
COOPER: And attorney Jonathan Polak.
COOPER: By the way, we called TMZ for a reaction to this story. They had no comment. We also put in calls to O.J. Simpson's lawyer and have yet to get a call back from him.
Just ahead tonight, meet a man who is helping refugees through dance. He is tonight's CNN hero, when 360 continues.
COOPER: Activist, Goodwill Ambassador Angelina Jolie is all those things. I sat down with her for an exclusive interview about the plight of nearly 23 million men, women and children around the home. We'll bring you that tomorrow night in the 360 special, "Without a Home: Refugees in Crisis." I hope you join us for that.
You might not know this, but the country Colombia has the largest population of displaced people in the western hemisphere. Many of them are children. One American is reaching out to them. He is one of CNN's heroes. Here's why.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ALVARO RESTREPO, CNN HERO: Cartagena is 1 million people, 1 million inhabitants city, where 70 percent of the population is living below the poverty line.
The violent conflict in Columbia has left more than 2 million people displaced.
Those who have fled to urban shantytowns are subject to poverty, disease and violence.
RESTREPO: My name is Alvaro Restrepo. I co-direct a college of the body. We work with kids coming from poor difficult neighborhoods of Cartagena, teaching them dance and through dance values that can change the lives.
For kids like Jose, well, he was born in the midst of something that for him is natural.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sometimes here we see violence. Almost every Friday and Sunday, someone is killed.
RESTREPO: They have the courage to realize yes I can become somebody with doing this.
So when you are teaching a simple exercise, you are speaking about concentration, about self-esteem, you are learning to work with others.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whenever I perform, I was afraid. But Alvaro encouraged me. He tells me there are two options, either you do it or you do it. I have to do it.
More than 800 children have gone through Alvaro's college of the body.
Seventeen are now professional dancers with a university degree.
RESTREPO: From the very beginning we started to realize that we were plowing in very fertile soil. We are able to prove that if these kids are given opportunities, they can become -- they can become great human beings.
COOPER: For more on the dance school, you can logon to CNN.com/heroes.
Up next on 360, an update on a story we've been following. Flooding in Texas and what rescue teams are doing now.
COOPER: Erica Hill joins us now with a 360 bulletin -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we begin in north Texas where more search teams are helping now to look for people swept away in floodwaters. At least five people are missing in and near Gainesville, including a 2-year-old girl who vanished when her family's home was destroyed by the flood. At least five other people also died.
In New Orleans, an update on a story we've been following for you on 360. Two nurses accused in the deaths of four patients at NOLA's Memorial Hospital after Hurricane Katrina hit have now been offered immunity to testify before a special grand jury. The nurses were arrested, along with a doctor back in July. Family members say the staffers gave drugs to kill patients so the caregivers could flee the bad conditions inside the hospital.
In outer space, the Space Shuttle Atlantis has now undocked from the International Space Station and is heading back to earth. Today the Atlantis crew used a robotic camera to do a final inspection on the shuttle's heat shield. They want to make sure it can withstand the intense heat during re-entry and landing that is scheduled for Thursday.
Meantime, back here on earth, Google going green. The philanthropic office of the Internet search engine is awarding $1 million in grants to those interested in developing electric vehicles, another $10 million can be bid on for those who want to develop a hybrid electric vehicle which is capable of getting 100 miles per gallon, Anderson. That's a lot of road time.
COOPER: Wow, 100 miles, 100 miles. That's amazing.
Don't miss the day's headlines with the 360 daily podcast. You don't need an iPod. You can watch it on your computer at CNN.com/AC360podcast or you can go to the iTunes store where it's a top download and it is still free.
Now, here's Kiran Chetry with a look at what's coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING" -- Kiran.
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: She was just doing her job, but doing it means she had to leave her home and her country behind.
We met a woman, Anderson, who helped U.S. troops in Iraq. She was an Arabic interpreter, putting her life and her family's life in danger. The Americans have helped her every step of the way, as well, including the man who opened his home to her and to some of the thousands of Iraqis who have fled their country.
We're going to hear her incredible story, tomorrow, on "AMERICAN MORNING," 6:00 Eastern.
Anderson, back to you.
COOPER: For our international viewers, "CNN TODAY" is coming up next.
Here in America, "LARRY KING" is coming up.
I'll see you here tomorrow night. Thanks for watching.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.voxant.com