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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Without a Home: Refugees in Crisis
Aired June 20, 2007 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again.
We're dedicating the program tonight to tough questions about a failure of conscience.
Right now, as we speak, there are nearly 23 million people in the world who can't go home. Imagine one in every 13 people in America homeless. Some are displaced within their own countries. Others have been forced to flee across borders as refugees. Millions more have returned to homes where they're no longer safe.
For the most part, these people, who have lost so much and live in fear, are being ignored.
Tonight, actress Angelina Jolie joins me to talk about her work with refugees. As a goodwill ambassador for the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, Jolie has watched the plight of refugees actually get worse.
In the last year, the worldwide refugee population has surged 14 percent, to almost 10 million. The number of internally displaced people under UNHCR's care has doubled to more than 14 million.
Numbers that big demand some explanation. Together, in the hour ahead, we're going to look at why things aren't getting better for refugees, who's to blame, and how these various crises may be solved.
For Jolie, it is a mission that began six years ago.
COOPER: When was it that you knew, this is it; this is going to be a primary focus for me?
ANGELINA JOLIE, ACTIVIST: The first time I went to a refugee camp?
COOPER: Which camp was that?
JOLIE: Well, my first trip, I went to Sierra Leone, and then I went to Tanzania. So, it was two different -- it was all in one very long extended few weeks -- and -- and kind of came back with the realization of having met these different groups of people, and ...
COOPER: Was there a moment in that camp in Sierra Leone where you said, this is it, this is for me? JOLIE: In Sierra Leone, it was a realization that there were really -- real horrors in the world and real -- and a kind of cruelty and violence that I really did not know existed. And I did not people could suffer like that.
In Sierra Leone, so many people had systematically had their arms and legs cut off, and even 3-year-old kids with no arms and legs, because they were hatcheted off, or friends that had to cut off other friends' hands and legs, and they were traumatized. And it was, really, to this day, it was the most brutal situation I have ever seen.
So, it wasn't so much a thought to work with refugees. It was just, I felt so -- I felt so unaware, and I felt so naive to the real -- real atrocities happening across -- across the globe, and -- and that I knew I needed to, as a woman, as a human being, just had a responsibility to educate myself with these things, and not let them go by unnoticed -- personally, I just -- I knew I needed that, and to never again be confronted with a situation like that and think my God, how did I not know this was happening?
And then, just the more I have gotten to know refugees and refugee families and -- and even those people who had lost their -- their limbs, they had a strength and a spirit that I have never seen anywhere else than when I meet a refugee. They have something extraordinary.
COOPER: They have been victimized, but they're not necessarily victims?
JOLIE: They're not victims at all. They don't -- they don't live as victims. They have -- they certainly know that there has been an injustice. And they are very smart people. And I think that is something that people often don't connect with a refugee. They -- they think of them as a desperate group.
But they are, in fact -- Einstein was a refugee.
JOLIE: They are, in fact, some of the smartest, I'm sure the most resilient people in the world. And they -- and, also, many of them, before they became refugees, most all of them, lived lives like ours.
COOPER: It's really stunning to see how quickly the basics of an ordinary life, of home, a job, a family, can be torn away in an instant. It can happen to anyone.
For Jolie, those first visits to refugee camps were a turning point. In 2001, as we mentioned, she was named goodwill ambassador to the UNHCR, a role that has profoundly shaped her life ever since.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) COOPER (voice-over): It was a role she embraced from the start, identifying the problems faced by people in each country, and doing all she could to help.
On her trips to the UNHCR, she pays her own way and says she donates one third of her income to causes she believes in.
JOLIE: I believe in the United Nations and UNHCR, because before there -- the vulnerable -- millions of vulnerable people around the world can be assisted, their children can be assisted, health care, so forth, they first need protection and they need to be safe.
COOPER: In 2001, Jolie went to Pakistan, visiting some of the more than two million Afghan refugees, the world's largest refugee population, according to the U.N. Jolie donated $1 million to help ease their suffering.
In 2002, while making the movie "Beyond Borders," she made her first trip to Namibia, visiting a camp that housed Angolan refugees. She and her production team donated tents, bedding, and mattresses.
In Thailand, she toured the Tham Hin refugee camp, then spent four days in Ecuador, visiting some of the more than three million Colombians who fled their homes in the country's long civil war.
In 2004, Angelina Jolie turned her attention to the refugees from Sudan, visiting a camp in Chad where thousands have fled the fighting in Darfur. And, in 2005, she viewed firsthand the aftermath of the October earthquake in Kashmir.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "A MIGHTY HEART")
JOLIE: Danny is missing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Last year, Jolie took a break from filming "A Mighty Heart" in India to visit refugees from Afghanistan and Myanmar, formerly known as Burma. And, this year, the Jolie-Pitt Foundation donated $1 million to relief efforts for the people of Darfur.
She has built a global family by adopting orphans from some of these regions, Maddox from Cambodia, Zahara from Ethiopia, and, most recently, Pax from Vietnam. Angelina and Brad Pitt's biological daughter, Shiloh, was born in Namibia.
It may seem strange at first, but Jolie says, in a sense, she has found her place among these people in need. She's found a role she feels is the most important work of her life.
JOLIE: And I do feel more comfortable there. And -- and I will always feel uncomfortable in the middle of New York or Washington all dressed up. And I will always feel a bit like a punk kid.
COOPER: She may see herself like that, but, to the world, of course, she's a major movie star.
And, in the last 12 months, her global mission has taken on new urgency.
As we touched on briefly at the top of the hour, for the first time in five years, the number of refugees worldwide rose last year, to nearly 10 million, largely because of the crisis in Iraq.
Tonight, nearly two million Iraqis are internally displaced; 1.5 million are refugees. It's the largest exodus of people in the Middle East in half-a-century. And the vast majority have fled to Syria and Jordan.
And America? Well, the State Department says the U.S. has given refuge to just 701 Iraqis over the last four years. And most of them had begun the process before Saddam Hussein's government fell.
You might think that Iraqis who have risked their lives to help the U.S. would be assured of safety here in America. But many of them say that help isn't coming fast enough. And, tonight, we're asking, why not?
Here's CNN's Michael Ware.
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Despite appearances, this man considers himself lucky.
His name is Uday, and he's one of the less than 1,000 Iraqis welcomed into the United States since the beginning of the war. Just after the fall of Baghdad, he was thrilled to help the Americans as an Army translator. But, just 35 days into the job, his car was stopped in the street by three men.
(on camera): They shot you in the face, and they shot you in the arm.
UDAY, IRAQI REFUGEE: Yes. Yes. No, they want to shoot my head, you know? But I put my arm like this.
WARE (voice-over): In Iraq, working for the Americans can mean signing your own death warrant. Retribution from Sunni insurgents and Shia militia is severe. But the State Department's official advice, even for those shot, threatened or with family members kidnapped, is simply to get out of Iraq.
(on camera): The military didn't help you?
WARE: The American government didn't help you?
WARE (voice-over): Uday wasn't rescued by the Army, but by a chance encounter with this woman, running a tiny charity to get surgery for wounded Iraqi children.
ELISSA MONTANTI, FOUNDER, GLOBAL MEDICAL RELIEF FUND: There wasn't any -- any support coming from the government, coming from anywhere. Uday was on his own.
WARE: Kirk Johnson is on a one-man crusade to save hundreds of others. Now a civilian, after working for a year in Iraq with the State Department's aid agency, USAID, he's culled a list of more than 400 Iraqi translators, like Uday, now at risk who need rescue.
KIRK JOHNSON, FORMER USAID WORKER: I don't know why it's taking so long, because we're usually the leaders in the world at resettling refugees. Yet, for whatever reason, with these particular refugees, we seem to have forgotten how to do what we do best.
WARE: Since the war began, according to the State Department, only 701 Iraqis have made it to U.S. shores. And, of those, but a few are victims of the war, the rest, refugees from a regime that fell four years ago, Saddam Hussein's.
JOHNSON: These people have been raped. They have been kidnapped. They have had family members killed, all because they were identified as working for the United States government.
WARE: So far, he says, not one of his 400-plus list has made it out.
JOHNSON: I have never been more ashamed of -- of my government now. Those Iraqis that worked for us, when I see them fleeing, without even anything other than a sort of good luck from us, it turns my stomach.
WARE: While pumping billions of dollars a week into the fight, the U.S. has offered a comparatively meager $150 million this year to boost ailing support services in the countries like Syria and Jordan awash with these desperate Iraqis.
And, of the four million displaced Iraqis around the world, America has so far only brought in a relative handful into the country, while other Western countries, like Sweden and Australia, have taken in tens of thousands.
Why does the country that started the war lag so far behind? The answers are in Washington. Ellen Sauerbrey is the assistant secretary of state responsible for assisting these refugees.
(on camera): Has America met its profound obligation to these Iraqis?
ELLEN SAUERBREY, U.S. ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR POPULATION, REFUGEES, AND MIGRATION: Americans do care. And we do feel that moral commitment. Are we moving as quickly as we need to? Are we finding the people that need our assistance as quickly as I wish we were? No. But we are -- we are moving forward now.
WARE (voice-over): Sauerbrey says it's a delicate balance. America recognizes the humanitarian need, but, she says, there are added security concerns for bringing in refugees from a country the U.S. is still fighting.
The process just now put in place of granting an Iraqi refugee status in the United States takes four to six months, and those who work directly with the U.S. government in Iraq are fast-tracked. But Sauerbrey says it's difficult to find them, a claim disputed by Kirk Johnson.
And, while the U.S. recently said it expects to take in some 2,500 Iraqis into the country this year, Sauerbrey suggested the government could take even more.
SAUERBREY: There is no cap on the numbers.
WARE (on camera): So you will bring as many as is needed?
SAUERBREY: We will be bringing people in as quickly as we can get them through security clearance.
WARE: No one will be left behind?
SAUERBREY: It may take time.
WARE (voice-over): That, it seems, is a profound understatement. Just last month, only one Iraqi was cleared to arrive in the U.S.
JOHNSON: They still have a chance to save these people's lives. They're still living. They're running for their lives. But the game isn't over yet.
WARE: It's only just begun for Uday.
If you're wondering why we haven't told you his last name, it's because he asked we didn't, out of security concerns for both him and his wife and four children. That's because they're still in Iraq. They have just been granted asylum, but, because of the ongoing violence, it's unclear when they will be able to leave.
Michael Ware, CNN, Washington.
COOPER: In February, under pressure to do more, U.S. officials promised to admit up to 7,000 Iraqi refugees by the end of the year. But, as Michael just reported, they now expect just 2,500 Iraqis to be admitted by year's end.
So, should America do more? Is there a moral obligation to do more?
That's where my interview with Angelina Jolie picks up.
COOPER: Iraq. The number of refugees from Iraq has exploded in this past year. Do you think America is living up to its moral obligation to refugees from Iraq?
JOLIE: I think we need to support Syria and Jordan. And I think we need to be -- support UNHCR, support people that are handling the very, very large caseload of internally displaced and the refugee population in these areas that are already strained.
I think, as for the amount we take in, I believe the number they're trying to take in, they're planning on taking in, is something like 7,000.
JOLIE: I do know that there's a reality of how long it takes to bring a refugee into this country and the paperwork. And it is extensive. That's not an excuse for them, but I'm -- I'm hoping that they will bring in more people and they would...
JOLIE: But, in the meantime, I think the bigger thing is that I think they really need to support and give -- give proper aid to those countries that are hosting the millions of people.
COOPER: There are many concerns in the United States about security, about allowing Iraqis in, and, you know, are you -- which Iraqis are you allowing in? Are you allowing people who have helped the United States as interpreters or people who have connections to al Qaeda or insurgent groups?
That's a legitimate fear.
JOLIE: Sure. I -- you know, but, honestly, as I said before, I'm more worried about the millions and millions of vulnerable people that have no access to a decent quality of life, who are going to be brought into terrorist groups, because that's their only option, or kids that don't have any schools or any food, and there's a jihadi school that is free down the road that offers lunch.
I'm more worried about that. I'm more worried about the -- kind of what's happening on a global scale, than, are we -- are we scanning the few thousand?
COOPER: Do you think the -- what's commonly referred to as the war on terror, do you think that's made life harder for refugees?
JOLIE: Certainly for people to want to seek asylum in the States, absolutely.
And I think people's perception of people from other countries has become increasingly negative. And there's more of a -- there's more misunderstanding, more anger.
I think the sadder thing that has happened in -- in the last few years is the -- when I used -- first started traveling, which was, I suppose, six years ago now, a lot of people wanted to come to the U.S., and a lot of the people said: Oh, you're from America. I love America. I love...
JOLIE: You know, and they -- and a lot of them wanted to -- that was their destination of choice.
And it's very different now. There's a very different feeling about America internationally.
COOPER: Our changing world -- the feedback on America, not the same as it was years ago.
Just ahead on this 360 special: inside a danger zone.
COOPER (voice-over): Millions of Afghan refugees -- now many are forced to go home. Few jobs are waiting, but the Taliban may be.
PETER MARSDEN, AUTHOR, "THE TALIBAN: WAR, RELIGION AND THE NEW ORDER IN AFGHANISTAN": Iran may intentionally be sending young men back, in the hope that they will then be recruited by the Taliban.
COOPER: It didn't have to be this way -- who's to blame and why America may pay the price.
From Afghanistan, to Darfur, to Cambodia, she's on a global warming, a mission shaped by motherhood -- her family, a reflection of her mission.
JOLIE: When I met my kids, and they were just little people that were on their own, you know, that they were, to me, extraordinary and -- and felt just like family.
COOPER: Angelina Jolie describes why she's creating a global family and if more kids are on the way -- next on "Without a Home: Refugees in Crisis."
COOPER: Tonight, more than two million Afghans are living outside their country -- two million. It is the world's largest refugee population.
Afghanistan has seen so many wars and other struggles, it's hard to know where to begin to explain the exodus.
And many fear the crisis is about to get worse. The vast majority of Afghan refugees have fled to Pakistan and Iran. And now both countries are threatening to send them home. And home, of course, is a shattered country, where the Taliban has built new inroads and is eager for new recruits. More from CNN's Nic Robertson.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): For these Afghan refugees in Iran, life is about to get tough.
Almost a million Afghans live here, according to the U.N. Many fled the Soviet occupation in the 1980s. Many were born here. More than a million others live in Pakistan. And there may be millions more in both countries who are not registered with the U.N.
The Afghan refugee problem is the biggest in the world. Most have no jobs to go home to. Now Iran is forcing hundreds of thousands of Afghans out. Pakistan, on the other side of Afghanistan, plans the same. It wants all Afghan refugees gone by 2010, millions of people without a home, many ripe for recruitment by the Taliban.
PETER MARSDEN, AUTHOR, "THE TALIBAN: WAR, RELIGION AND THE NEW ORDER IN AFGHANISTAN": The risk of the insurgency strengthening as a result of the expulsions of people from Afghanistan, from Iran and Pakistan is huge.
ROBERTSON: Marsden has tracked Afghan refugees for decades, and says Iran's moves could be intended to disrupt U.S. interests.
MARSDEN: Iran may intentionally be sending young men back, in the hope that they will then be recruited by the Taliban, which will then make the job of the -- of the U.S. more difficult in Afghanistan.
ROBERTSON: Millions of refugees, a breeding ground for terror, how did the situation get this bad? It's been a slow build, U.N. officials say. During the Soviet occupation, almost three decades ago, a quarter of all Afghans fled the country. Refugee camps became recruiting grounds for fighters overthrowing the Red Army, and then, later, for the Taliban.
When the U.S. overthrew the Taliban almost six years ago, more than four million refugees returned, says the U.N.
TIM IRWIN, SPOKESMAN, UNITED NATIONS HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES: The return of Afghan refugees since the fall of the Taliban represents the largest organized movement of people anywhere on Earth at any point.
ROBERTSON: But the figures are misleading, caution some experts. The returning refugees needed work. The West didn't invest, so there were no jobs. Millions had no incentive to return. Some even came back to Afghanistan, and then left again.
Almost everyone agrees, however, the West should have done more to help.
IRWIN: I think many Afghans are asking themselves, so, you know, when are things really going to get better? I think the responsibility for fulfilling those promises is one which is -- should be borne by everyone in the international community.
ROBERTSON: But it's not just the West who are to blame, according to Marsden. The Afghan government also shares responsibility.
MARSDEN: It is enormously difficult for -- for big businessmen to kind of deal with the red tape that the government creates, to deal with the fact that -- that the government continues to be highly corrupt.
ROBERTSON: So, fingers are pointing in all directions. But how does it get fixed? For all countries to drop national agendas, and invest solely for the Afghans' benefits, say experts. And that, they add, is not likely to happen.
The U.N. predicts, voluntary returns are effectively over. Any refugees arriving in Afghanistan now are likely forced. Taliban violence is also stopping refugees going home. But, if Iran and Pakistan have their way, that violence could well explode.
Nic Robertson, CNN, London.
COOPER: As Nic mentioned, for Afghans, the difficult journey home has already begun.
Afghans are already being sent back home to unsafe conditions. And, for aid workers at the refugee camps, it is heartbreaking work.
Angelina Jolie saw it up close. We talked about what that was like.
COOPER: What were the camps, the Afghan camps that you -- you went to, what were they like, because it has among the largest refugee population anywhere?
JOLIE: Yes, it still is the largest refugee population, which I think says a lot about our inability to stabilize that situation.
COOPER: Why do you think it is that we haven't been able to stabilize it? Do you think -- is it resources have been put into Iraq that could have gone to Afghanistan?
JOLIE: You know, it seems like we have -- we have a very good -- as an international community or as a country ourselves, when -- when we need to go to war, we have strategies and plans and big offices and we have a plan of attack. We know this, you know? When it's to fight terrorism, we have, you know, lots of different mandates that are very focused and very detailed.
We don't seem to be very good at having a plan for reconstruction and peace. Every time that situation occurs, we seem to be reinventing it, and starting all over, and trying to figure out how best to do this or that, or -- we don't take it as seriously as we should. We don't make it as much of a priority as we should. And we don't have a very specific, clear mandate on how to do -- how to do that.
And, so, you know, you have Afghanistan, and you have -- you have so many people who are internally displaced and so many people who are still refugees. But I, myself, put people back -- a few years ago, had to put people back on buses, to say, OK, it's time, because, when a situation, when there's a war, and when, then, it -- the war is over, even people watching this, we expect to hear the, how many people have returned? What are the numbers? What's the positive news?
And they want those answers quickly. And donor countries want those answers quickly. And it's not a quick thing to do, to return a people who have been uprooted for 20 years, and to go into a country that is -- is so broken, and just assume you can put people on -- people on buses and return them.
COOPER: So, you were in a camp in Pakistan actually returning people to Afghanistan?
JOLIE: Actually putting people on a bus, but having women say to me -- and I was with a UNHCR colleague, who was very emotional. And it was very difficult for them, because they had no more resources to keep them in Pakistan, but they knew they were sending them into a place that had no schools, no water, was not necessarily safe, no even local hospital set up properly for their kids.
But it was time to return. The -- our international community had said, it's time to move.
And, if it's not stable, then they are more vulnerable people, subject to ideological capture by extremist groups. And we are allowing that to happen. And we know how dangerous that is.
COOPER: It is very dangerous.
Coming up: another troubled area, possibly the most talked about refugee crisis in the world. The question is, why hasn't the killing stopped in Darfur?
Plus: candid talk from Angelina Jolie about her other global mission, motherhood, how she's creating a family as she travels around the world and whether she is planning on adopting or having more kids.
That's next on this 360 special, "Without A Home: Refugees in Crisis."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOLIE: And, certainly, when I met my kids, and they were just little people that were on their own, you know, that that they were, to me, extraordinary and -- and felt just like family. And -- and that is, I suppose, how -- having traveled this much, how I feel about the world and other people's kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: For six years while Angelina Jolie has been working with refugees, she's also been creating a family. She's adopted three children, from Vietnam, Ethiopia and Cambodia, and also has a biological daughter with actor Brad Pitt.
We talked about the global family she's building and how her work with refugees has shaped it.
COOPER: Seeing people in refugee camps, seeing families, seeing children, unaccompanied minors, does it -- does it change the way you view your own kids? Or interact with your kids?
JOLIE: I suppose. And I -- it might be part of the reason my kids are from some of those countries and were on their own. So I -- I'm sure that has had an impact in the way my family has come together.
But I feel very closely to -- to -- just to children or people around the world. And certainly when I met my kids and they were just little people that were on their own, you know, that they were to me extraordinary and felt just like family.
And that is, I suppose, how having traveled as much, how I feel about the world and other people's kids.
COOPER: How do you decide where your -- I mean, how do you find a child in Ethiopia or how do you decide where you're going to look for a child?
JOLIE: I don't really. And I didn't -- I didn't from the beginning. I just -- my -- the first child I adopted was Cambodian. I had just been there for a film. And I went back with the U.N. And I fell in love with the people of Cambodia, because they had suffered through so much. And they were so loving and open and interesting. And so I fell in love with the country first.
And then I was sitting with a little kid in a clinic playing blocks, and I remember just looking over and thinking, yes, thinking my son was somewhere there, which is strange. It was a weird feeling, but I certainly got it. And he was.
COOPER: More on Angelina Jolie's personal connection to the refugee crisis is coming up.
Plus, inside a refugee camp and a child changed forever by the crisis in Darfur.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER (voice-over): She's 2 years old and weighs less than ten pounds.
MARK LATTIMER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MINORITY RIGHTS GROUP: To be born in one of those camps now must give you one of the worst possible life expectancies in the world. It must place you, as a child, in one of the worst possible situations you could be.
COOPER: Millions of refugees from Darfur, many of them children living on the edge. Why is this happening? And who is to blame?
Also ahead, Angelina Jolie's global juggling act, on a mission to save lives but also making movies while raising four young children with Brad Pitt. How does she do it?
JOLIE: I am a big planner. I schedule things. You know, I only work sporadically now. And when I do, Brad is a great dad, and he's with the kids when I'm working.
COOPER: More from my interview with Angelina Jolie on this 360 special.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRAPHIC: Sudan: 686,000 refugees. Estimated 5 million internally displaced. At least 200,000 have died due to conflict.
COOPER: Some call those numbers proof of a crisis of conscience. For more than four years, the Sudanese military and Janjaweed militia have waged war against rebel and ethnic tribes in Darfur.
Hundreds of thousands have died, and millions have been forced from their homes while the world has watched.
America has called the situation genocide and spent billions in aid to refugees. It has also imposed sanctions, which some critics say aren't harsh enough.
The world has seen genocide before. Though how can it possibly be happening again? And how did things get to this point? That's another question we have tonight.
Here's CNN's chief medical correspondent, Sanjay Gupta.
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For 2-year-old Acha Doumi (ph) and thousands of other children like her, the Dijaba (ph) refugee camp is a terrible place to grow up.
LATTIMER: To be put in one of those camps now must give you one of the worst possible life expectancies in the world.
GUPTA (on camera): No doubt it is not easy to take care of people in a refugee camp. But here's where it gets really difficult.
This is a structure built specifically to take care of malnourished children. For example, Acha Doumi (ph) here, who is 2 years old and weighs less than 10 pounds.
Her mother knows she doesn't have a very good chance of survival, but they're doing the best they can, trying to get her to eat as much as she can.
(voice-over) Acha (ph) is one of millions of refugees from Darfur and Sudan, forced to flee their villages in hopes of finding safe haven somewhere else.
So I was curious, why is this happening?
It began as a battle between militias that served the Sudanese government, nomadic Arab fighters called the Janjaweed, and rebel groups comprised of black Africans who say they are simply fighting back against government oppression.
Regardless, it is the Sudanese civilians who are paying the price: 200,000 dead. Nearly six million displaced, according to the Internal Displacement Monitoring Center. That's the why. But what about the who?
The finger pointing starts with Sudan's government, eager to push out local farmers and take over their land.
LATTIMER: That has since escalated into a full-scale ethnic cleansing. That there is no doubt that the single biggest responsibility must lie with the Sudanese government.
GUPTA: That is a charge the Sudanese government denies.
(on camera) To your best of your knowledge, I know you've only been in the position for 13 months -- Sudanese.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes.
GUPTA: But what about before that? Was there a government sponsored genocide over the last five, seven, ten years?
JOHN UKEC, SUDAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: I am not going to speculate (ph) on that. And I reserve my opinion about that.
GUPTA: People believe that there was, and I think that's part of the problem.
UKEC: If they believe that there was, it is no longer there, because the system of government has changed. The warring parties have changed. The party that was fighting the government has joined the government. GUPTA (voice-over): Some human rights advocates say the blame doesn't stop there. There's plenty to go around. And the United Nations certainly shoulders some.
LATTIMER: Reports from the U.N.'s principal aide official in Darfur were ignored, effectively, by the political hierarchy at the U.N. in New York. And the warning signs were, in fact, the warning shouts were ignored.
GUPTA: Even today, with all we know, the U.N. will not call the situation in Sudan genocide and refuses to level sanctions against the government. Why? In a word, China.
NICHOLAS KRISTOFF, REPORTER, "NEW YORK TIMES": China is a net oil importer, and it gets oil from Sudan. And as a result, it has been protecting Sudan on the U.N. Security Council and blocking any resolutions that would really put a lot of pressure on Sudan or that would force troops into Sudan.
GUPTA: The question now, of course, is can it be stopped?
KROSTOFF: Ultimately, there's no magic solution that is just going to end this overnight. But we have an awful lot of levers out there that we haven't pushed adequately.
GUPTA: Wheels within political wheels. None of which help ease the pain of Acha Douima (ph) and the millions like her, fighting to stay alive while others fight over the land that was once their home.
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Washington.
COOPER: We've been telling the story of Darfur for years now on this program, but it seems no number of dispatches from the region, no amount of public awareness has slowed the killing. And still, no one has been brought to justice.
Angelina Jolie has been to the region three times and, like Sanjay, she recently visited a camp in Chad housing refugees from Darfur. We talked about a little boy she met and her outrage over all that's not being done.
COOPER: I know that in Darfur the number of internally displaced people has grown dramatically in the last year. You were in a camp -- there's a photo of you with a 7-year-old boy, I think, who was tied to a pole. What was that?
JOLIE: It was -- as shocking as it is to see that picture, I was shocked when I saw that. And my instinct, with children of my own, is how could this kid be tied? Somebody let him go and somebody take care of him. Somebody -- the reality is, he was -- he was about 3 years old, they said, when the bombs hit when he was in Darfur, and he disappeared for 48 hours. And before that he was a very normal little boy. And now he -- and I did see him do a bit. He tries to hurt himself. He does -- I forget the name for it, but he whacks himself into walls, and he goes running off and he'll try to -- he'll try to hurt himself and others.
And he's -- and after spending about a half an hour with him, I thought maybe they -- maybe they felt that it was from the bombs, that maybe he's just -- there is something different about his mind. Maybe he's an autistic child. Maybe he's -- but I spent a half an hour with him, and he was -- and he was a very normal little kid. He was just really, really scared. Really scared.
And to spend a half hour and just touch him and pet him. And you know -- and hold him and look at him, and -- it was -- it's really -- it's a part of conflict that we often don't have the time to also think about.
These people that been through all of this. Every refugee, what they have gone through. The therapy that it would require. The deep, deep internal wound that has happened to these people. And what they're going to need. Not just a new house and, you know, some food aid. But really what they all need.
COOPER: And the stories you hear in those camps are pretty chilling.
JOLIE: They're horrible. They're horrible. They're the worst things you can possibly imagine. Somebody killing your children, somebody making you possibly eat your children. Somebody cutting -- you know, somebody forcing you to cut your father's hands off. Somebody raping -- systematic rape of very, very little girls. Raping them so badly that they -- that they've been torn open so much that they're leaking feces. It's -- it's -- there's no word for it.
COOPER: Is there a solution in Darfur? I mean, it's in the headlines. It's probably the most publicized. You know, there are rallies about it. There are newspaper ads about it. The president has called it genocide. The U.S. has given $2 billion over the last two years to help Darfur, the refugees. The U.S. just imposed recently sanctions.
And yet the killings continue. The internally displaced populations grow. It doesn't -- it seems to defy a solution.
JOLIES: I think there is -- this is that question where I have to be -- I get very -- no, I get very -- I get very angry about this issue, so I have to take a deep breath. I think...
COOPER: Angry because?
JOLIE: Angry because I think we have not -- I think we have a problem with not being able to hold people accountable who commit these crimes. And until we are able to do that as an international community and until we are able to back up the steps we take towards justice, in a very, very strong way, I don't see what it is that we are doing. And we -- the Security Council referred the case of Darfur to the International Criminal Court. The International Criminal Court had two indictments, and two arrest warrants have been issued for two men inside Darfur.
And it is the most important thing, I think, that can happen, is to press Bashir to hand over these two men. And if we don't, I think it is saying -- and sending a message through Darfur that the guy holding a guy on a little girl right now and raping her, he's going to think, "I'm not going to be held accountable," because these men are not being pulled in. They're being protected.
Even the Security Council and the International Criminal Court can't get them. They're protected. So how are we going to send a message to all these people doing all these terrible things, to say you cannot do this?
COOPER: Is there...
JOLIE: You cannot get away with this?
COOPER: Is there such a thing as international justice? I mean, the Security Council, China and Russia can veto, you know, harsh sanctions, and China needs the oil. They get oil from Sudan. Sudan uses Chinese weapons.
JOLIE: I mean, that's a -- yes, I think -- I think we -- I personally am curious about -- it is something I'm studying. I don't have the answer to. But I'm curious how the Security Council exists as it does and what any member country of the Security Council, is there anything that they have to be held responsible to in order to maintain membership. And from what I've found, absolutely nothing. They're just the members.
COOPER: There are others who call for a no-fly zone. They say that would be pretty easy to do. The U.S. has a base in Chad.
JOLIE: Yes, I think there should be a no-fly zone. Certainly.
COOPER: You would support that?
JOLIE: Yes, I support sanctions. I support a no-fly zone. I support troops coming in, peacekeeper troops coming in. I'll be clear.
But -- but at the same time I think you do all of that and you don't follow through on these arrest warrants, and you're not -- and the future does not look good for international justice.
COOPER: The quest for international justice, it is a rough road. As Angelina Jolie just said, so far two men have been indicted for the atrocities in Darfur, but Sudanese officials have not turned them over. If and when they are caught, there is a court waiting for them. It's where international justice can, in theory, be meted out. But the obstacles are enormous, and you might be surprised to learn who opposes the court.
More from CNN's senior legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Nazi war criminals received their judgment at Nuremberg.
Saddam Hussein was sentenced to hang in this Iraqi courtroom.
SLOBODAN MILOSEVIC, FORMER PRESIDENT OF SERBIA: This tribunal is illegal.
TOOBIN: Slobodan Milosevic died before he faced a verdict in this international tribunal at The Hague. And that's where the International Criminal Court is now located.
Accused war criminals of the genocide in Darfur will be tried here.
LUIS MORENO-OCAMPO, CHIEF PROSECUTOR, ICC: Harun and Kushayb, one day, will be here sitting in front of the judges, facing justice.
TOOBIN: Luis Moreno-Ocampo is the chief prosecutor for the International Criminal Court, or the ICC.
Sudanese government minister Ahmed Harun and Ali Kushayb of the Janjaweed militia are so far the only two individuals facing charges for the Darfur genocide. The 51 charges include crimes against humanity, as well as ordering the murder, torture and rape of innocent civilians.
But as heinous as their alleged crimes may be, the trial of the two men is at best a long way off, and at worst will never happen at all. The prosecution of their case is a window into the challenges -- some might say the almost impossible limitations -- on an International Criminal Court system.
For starters, the defendants aren't even in custody, and the prosecutor has no police force to arrest them.
MORENO-OCAMPO: We are trying to do criminal justice in an international arena. We've got a global court, but there are no global police, no global state. Imagine the U.S. with a court in Washington with 18 judges and one prosecutor but no FBI, no White House, and no Congress.
TOOBIN: Ironically, perhaps, the biggest hurdle to bringing teeth to the International Criminal Court is the world's greatest champion of due process, the United States.
ANNE-MARIE SLAUGHTER, AUTHOR, "THE IDEA THAT IS AMERICA": The United States opposes the International Criminal Court, because we have feared that the court would become a politicized tool to be used against U.S. soldiers and U.S. leaders.
TOOBIN: In fact, a 2002 law says the president can use all means necessary to free Americans charged in the international court.
Opponents nickname this law the Hague Invasion Act.
The International Criminal Court can and will proceed without the full backing of the U.S., though it might be slow going. To Moreno- Ocampo, justice is worth the wait.
MORENO-OCAMPO: Truth is important. And we prevail. In two months, in two years, in five years, we are a permanent court, and the destiny of Ahmed Harun is in the dock in the ICC.
TOOBIN: Jeffrey Toobin, CNN, New York.
COOPER: Truth is important and will prevail, he said. Let's hope he's right.
Still ahead on this 360 special, how the most famous mom on the planet juggles her growing family, her movie career and her mission to help the world's refugees. And does she plan on having more kids? Ahead on 360.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOLIE: It's just made me a better person. I wake up in the morning, and I -- ever since I started working with refugees, there's never been one morning where I've woken up and wished for more in my life, or thought "poor me" about anything, because I am so, so fortunate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Angelina Jolie has traveled to refugee camps in more than 20 countries as a good will ambassador for the United Nations' high commissioner on refugees. And that alone would be enough for many people to take on, but what she sees in the camps is not for the faint of heart. The stories the refugees tell her, as she put it earlier, are heavy. But along with the heaviness comes inspiration.
She and Brad Pitt are raising four kids, three of them adopted. She told me she'd like to have more kids, possibly many more. Here's what else she told me about her mission and motherhood and how she manages to juggle both.
COOPER: How has doing this work changed you? How has it changed you as a mom, as a woman, as a wife? JOLIE: I'm not a wife.
COOPER: Well, sorry, right.
COOPER: Maybe some day.
JOLIE: It's -- it's just made me a better person. It makes -- I wake up in the morning and I -- ever since I started working for refugees, there's never been one morning where I've woken up and wished for more in my life or thought "poor me" about anything because I am so, so fortunate.
And any time I have -- even if it's something serious that's going on, the loss of a parent or going through a scare with a kid, anything like that, I just take a deep breath and remember all the people I've met that have been through a hundred times more pain that I will ever, ever know in my life. And it makes me a better person. It makes me able to never feel sorry for myself, so...
COOPER: I read recently you said -- actually, it's an old quote. You said you wanted to have ultimately eight kids. Is that still...
JOLIE: We fluctuate between, like, seven and 12. So...
COOPER: Seven and 12? Really?
JOLIE: We'll see where we land.
COOPER: Are you considering another child already?
JOLIE: Well, I was thinking about it. Right now we're just -- we have four, and the fourth is only a few months. So we're just making sure that everybody has enough time. And it takes -- it can take a full day of making sure that everybody has special attention.
COOPER: And how are you able to do this, I mean, go to these refugee camps, and work and raise a family? Four kids is a lot. You must be a big planner.
JOLIE: I am a big planner. I schedule things like crazy. You know, I only work sporadically now, and when I do, Brad's a great dad, and he's with the kids when I'm working. So we -- we take turns as parents.
And as for refugee work and -- I love it. And it is -- it is -- some people like to go on vacation. I love to feel that I am being somewhat useful in the world, and I love traveling. And I really -- I have a beautiful time sitting with refugee families and learning about them and who they are. And it's inspiring, and it takes nothing out of me. It is -- it is a real pleasure.
COOPER: Coming up, an extraordinary man Angelina Jolie met under extraordinary circumstances. Fileen (ph), Myanmar, one of the most secretive places on the planet. You'll hear his story from Angelina and find out why we decided to go find him ourselves, next on this 360 special, "Without a Home: Refugees in Crisis".
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOLIE: I went to visit this guy David and his wife, and -- and he really was one of the most extraordinary, intelligent individuals I've ever met. And he -- and he is a great reminder to everybody OF what a refugee -- of the face of a refugee.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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