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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Officer Suspended in Casey Anthony Case
Aired January 14, 2009 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Brand-new bombshells tonight in the Caylee Anthony murder case, as the cop at the center of the storm refuses to talk.
That`s the home of the officer who`s now under internal investigation. Did he botch the meter reader`s August tip about a suspicious bag near the Anthony home? A tip that turned out to be right on the money? Turns out this officer has reportedly faced similar complaints.
And a psychic tells Nancy Grace she was on the phone with private eye Dominic Casey as that gum shoe was slashing his way through the crime scene a month before Caylee`s body was found. But can she prove it?
And stunning new insights into the mother/daughter relationship between accused murderess Casey Anthony and her mom, Cindy. We`ll take your calls.
Also, his plane was one second away from plowing into homes. That`s what experts say about the truly bizarre case of the high-flying million- dollar money scammer who staged his own death, letting his plane crash as he parachuted to what he thought was a secured getaway on a motorcycle.
We`ll tell you how Marcus Schrenker was caught after a dramatic cat- and-mouse game, and why his wrist was slashed.
Plus, Bernie is back in court. We`ll have the latest stunner in the Madoff bail battle.
ISSUES starts now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, stunning new information in the Caylee Anthony murder case as the pressure on the Orange County Sheriff`s Department heats up. New video from CNN affiliate WKMG. A reporter tries to talk to the deputy that meter reader Roy Kronk says rudely dismissed his on-the-money tip back in August about Caylee`s remains. Well, guess what? That deputy refusing to talk. We`re going to play this clip twice because it moves very fast. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, deputy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi, deputy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Deputy Sheriff Richard Cain, now under internal investigation into what exactly happened in August, was slammed by Kronk in his interview with ABC`s "Good Morning America" yesterday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROY KRONK, METER READER: The cop was like -- I would say he was kind of rude to me.
I pointed in the area where it was at. And he just swept his head back and forth and said, "I don`t see anything." And pretty much that was it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Turns out this cop has reportedly gotten complaints before for similar action, or should I say inaction. We`ll have the full story.
Meantime, Cindy Anthony leaps to her daughter`s defense in an e-mail also obtained by CNN affiliate WKMG, saying, quote, "As for my daughter, she`d never hurt Caylee, and that will be proven. She loved her deeply," end quote.
We first told you about this e-mail last night. Tonight, we ill peer into the pathology of this mother/daughter relationship and reveal some disturbing theories.
So much to talk about night. I want to hear from you. Give me a holler: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297 to weigh in.
Joining me now, my fantastic panel: Kathi Belich, reporter with CNN affiliate WFTV in Orlando; Nicole DeBorde, criminal defense attorney and a former district attorney; Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney; Dr. Brian Russell, forensic psychologist and attorney, as well; and Rick Robinson, a former West Virginia state trooper.
Kathi, you`ve covered this story from the start. What is the very latest?
KATHI BELICH, REPORTER, WFTV: Well, what we uncovered today was a little more information that throws psychic Ginnette Lucas` account of the story that she gave, that she was on the phone with the Anthonys` private investigator, Dominic Casey, at the scene in November, throws it into question.
A woman from her area in Virginia says that, when her niece was murdered about 20 years ago, she and her sister, the victim`s mother, were desperate a month after the crime to try to find the killer. They went to Ginnette Lucas. They say they paid her about $5,000 altogether on some credit cards to get some information from her. She said that -- Mary Sweat (ph) is her name, said that Ginnette gave her useless, obvious information. And to this day, the crime has not been solved.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hold on a minute. This just in. A psychic with credibility problems?
I mean, how crazy has this case gotten, Jayne Weintraub? Obviously, there`s a lot of people who say the only kind of information a psychic could give you is useless information. Those people who do not believe in psychics.
JAYNE WEINTRAUB, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, the real answer is what`s the difference, because it can`t be used in a court of law? So that`s the real answer.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. I don`t know if I agree with you. Because in this context, she is saying, "Hey, I`m the psychic who sent Dominic Casey to the scene where Caylee`s remains were found a month before they were found."
That`s not her testifying about her psychic ability as much as her saying that she led somebody who might be a crucial witness to a crucial location. Doesn`t that make her a possible witness?
WEINTRAUB: Potential witness, but, I mean, the information is the body is found there. And the remains were found there or seen there.
But the reality is, as far as the private investigator, what is he doing talking to the psychic? The answer is desperate people have desperate measures. These people, Cindy Anthony and probably her daughter, were desperate to find the child. And so if they got a call from the psychic who said that she had a feeling, they told him, "Go follow every lead."
So I mean, I don`t find anything so outrageous about it. I find Kronk still a little weird, to tell you the truth.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to get to Mr. Kronk in a second. Now, we want to really, really hone in, though, on this psychic issue for a moment.
Last night, Nancy Grace interviewed the psychic, who claims to be the one on the other end of the line, talking to the Anthony family private eye, Dominic Casey, directing him to the site where Caylee was found four months later. Actually, it`s not four months later. It`s about three weeks later. About a month later.
Here she is talking about her cell phone records.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST, "NANCY GRACE": Did you turn over your cell phone records to police?
GINNETTE LUCAS, PSYCHIC: No, I`m trying to get a hold of it through Verizon. I`m not having an easy time with Verizon.
GRACE: Do you get a monthly bill?
LUCAS: Well, it goes to my dad`s office. So he...
GRACE: Well, wouldn`t there be a bill that shows all of the phone calls?
LUCAS: My dad said it`s not on there. So I`ve called Verizon and they said they couldn`t get it.
GRACE: Couldn`t get what?
LUCAS: They couldn`t get the detailed phone calls. So I`m going to go talk to a supervisor tomorrow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Are you confused? So are we.
Complicating the issue further, Dominic Casey reportedly has more than one cell phone.
Now, I`ve got to ask this, Nicole, DeBorde. Can you imagine how this is going to play out in court? Could this psychic -- and there was another psychic who went to the same site even earlier on, back in the summer. Could they end up taking the stand, and could it turn this trial into a joke?
NICOLE DEBORDE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, they really could end up in court. And it certainly isn`t going to make the case easier for whoever is trying to present these witnesses as credible witnesses.
I mean, anytime you put strange facts into your case, you`re going to get a strange result. And this is exactly the kind of thing that will create chaos in the courtroom.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, you know, what strikes me, Brian Russell -- and I go back to the Michael Jackson case. That was a very serious case involving very serious allegations of child molestation, but certain things happened within the course of the trial to completely rob the case of any of its pathos.
The behavior of the family making the accusation, as they were caught on videotape praising Michael Jackson in a ludicrously over-the-top manner. It became comical. And all of a sudden, people really -- a lot of people stopped taking the case seriously. Can you perceive that happening here? Or is this just really too profoundly tragic to have that kind of attitude?
BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST: Yes, I think the latter. I think we`re far out in front of the trial. This is interesting for us to talk about it, but I don`t think that it`s going to take jurors` eyes off the ball. I really think that jurors are not going to put much stock in anything having to do with a psychic.
The only thing that I see that the defense might try to do is say, well, this is just another instance of people trying to get authorities to the scene where the body could have been found earlier, where maybe more evidence would have still existed. But I really think that it`s just not going to go further than that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But I mean, Jayne Weintraub, if she doesn`t find the records, the phone records, and the authorities determine -- wait a second -- that Dominic Casey -- and I`m not saying he is, but if they determine he`s lying and he wasn`t talking to her, that he was talking to somebody who actually knew where those remains were, for a good reason, because maybe they`d put them there or they know -- they spoke to somebody who put them there, couldn`t this end up really being a problem for Dominic Casey`s credibility, and it could hurt the Anthony family?
WEINTRAUB: Well, no. I...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, this is a complicated lie. If this is a lie and it involves various people, it`s a complicated lie. It`s a cover-up.
WEINTRAUB: Yes, it is. And that`s a whole distraction. And any time there`s a distraction, you`re taking your eyes off the focus. And the focus here is the homicide, supposedly, or the death of the child. The focus will be taken off of that every time we go into the psychics and Kronk and the cops -- you know, the P.I. And that`s all tangential. That`s all separate and shouldn`t be part of the same investigation.
I disagree with Brian. I`m sorry, Brian, but we`re ready for trial here. This case is indicted. This is not the investigative stage. That`s what makes all of this so absurd. Any lawyer looking at this in any part of the discussion has got to be saying, what are they doing in Florida?
RUSSELL: Well, by the time the trial rolls around, though, this is all going to be -- this is all going to be pushed away because, look, listen to her with Nancy last night, and "Oh, I can`t find the cell records. And they go to my dad."
RUSSELL: This is all going to...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And the cops are going to...
RUSSELL: This is just a sham. Very shortly. And by the time the trial rolls around...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But if it`s a sham, somebody`s lying. And if it`s a sham, that means maybe he was talking -- remember, the story changed. First he said he was talking to his sick daughter. Now we are hearing reports that he was talking to a psychic. If that turns out to be a lie, doesn`t that imply that there`s something here very significant that`s being covered up, Nicole DeBorde?
DEBORDE: Exactly. Exactly. And that`s why it`s not tangential at all. In fact, it goes right to the heart of the matter. If this investigator, who was hired by the Anthonys, turns out to have been talking with someone from the Anthony family on the telephone at the time when he claims to have been talking to a number of other people, who won`t be able to verify that, for whatever reason, that could be very damaging to the Anthonys` side of the story.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In which way?
DEBORDE: If the people who are hearing this case at the -- at the decision-making time believe that this private investigator was put up to lying by somebody in Casey Anthony`s corner, they`re going to be angry with her for that fact. So...
WEINTRAUB: And this hearsay is coming into evidence how, under what theory, and who`s bringing it in and why?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let Nicole answer that.
DEBORDE: Well, it could be that he goes and says that I was talking on the phone to a particular person, and they`re able to impeach him or discredit his statement. And if they get to the truth of the matter and find out that he lied, not once, but he lied twice, and they ask him why he lied, and he ends up saying, for whatever reason, that someone put him up to it, that could be very damaging.
WEINTRAUB: ... tell the truth.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Guys, stay right there. So many bombshells to sort through in the Caylee Anthony murder case. Don`t forget: Nancy Grace is up immediately following this program at 8 p.m. Eastern. She will have the latest on the charges Casey Anthony is expected to face in this murder case.
And right here, I`ll have more analysis from my expert panel. Now meter reader Roy Kronk, is he throwing cops under the bus for failing to follow up on his tips? Whose side are you on? Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877- 586-7297, and let me know.
Here is one of Kronk`s infamous August 911 calls, which he claims cops ignored.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRONK: There`s a swamp, and if you`re heading back out towards the main road on the left-hand side, in an area -- I noticed something that looked white and there was -- I don`t know what it is. I`m not telling you it`s Caylee or anything of that nature.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CASEY ANTHONY, CHARGED WITH MURDERING DAUGHTER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) And I love you. And that I miss you. And you know you need to stay as strong as possible.
CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: We are, Casey. Our whole life is turned upside down looking for this little girl.
CASEY ANTHONY: I know. Trust me, if I could be out there with you, I would be in a heartbeat trying to help take the strain off of you, trying to find her. That`s all I want to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That is one of the jailhouse interviews from last summer between Casey and Cindy Anthony. We`re going to look into that relationship in a moment. Give me a holler: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877- 586-7297 to weigh in. Let`s go straight to the phones.
Sandy in California. Your question or comment, ma`am?
CALLER: My question is I was just wondering since I`ve seen Lee walking around with that private investigator, has anybody ever counted the amount of times that, when she`s speaking with her mom and her dad, that she has mentioned Lee`s name?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Kathi Belich, I don`t think that we`ve ever counted, but what do we know about these relationships? Particularly Lee`s influence?
BELICH: Well, she -- she often tells her parents, and I told Lee this. You know, I got the impression -- who knows why she was saying it. I got the impression she was trying to lend credibility to what she was saying to her parents by saying she also had told her brother. But she did repeat that quite often. You know, as started to tell them something, she would say, "And I also told Lee this." I don`t know what to make of that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Susan in Virginia, question or thought, ma`am.
CALLER: Hi, I was just wondering, can`t the private investigator who was looking in the woods near Casey`s parents` house, can`t he be charged with obstruction of justice?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jayne Weintraub?
WEINTRAUB: Probably not. Because obstructing justice, you would have to prove that he affirmatively did something to interfere with the evidence. So I would imagine that they`re not going to be able to prove that and that there is no evidence of that. And I also don`t think that a private investigator would do that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Rick Robinson, a former West Virginia state trooper, we are going to be talking in a moment about Roy Kronk. And I want you to listen to exactly what Roy Kronk is going to say, because I want to get your reaction as a trooper.
Roy Kronk`s discovery of Caylee`s remains being scrutinized and criticized. This was him on "Good Morning America" yesterday, telling his story of the discovery of Caylee`s remains.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KRONK: I called that night about 9:30, 10 p.m., and they said, "OK." And then nothing happened. No one called me back. I called them again the next night about 9:30, 10 p.m. They told me to call Crime Line. I called. The officer showed up.
He pulls his expandable baton out, went down to the water`s edge. I pointed in the area where it was at. He just swept his head back and forth and said, "I don`t see anything." And pretty much that was it.
I would say he was kind of rude to me. And I just didn`t really -- I`m trying to help out. I`m trying to be a nice guy, and instead I`m catching all this. I just didn`t care anymore.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And remember, Rick, this was in August. And basically, Roy Kronk is saying if he had actually looked where he was pointing, he would have found the body four months before they actually found it. Your response to that behavior -- alleged behavior?
Rick, can you hear me? All right. I can`t hear him.
WEINTRAUB: Can I answer?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Of course. Goody-good. Were you the type of girl in school that was always with her hand raised at the front of the class?
WEINTRAUB: Absolutely not. I didn`t have the answers to those questions. But I can -- I can tell you, Jane, from the very beginning, I said to you on your show there`s something not right about this.
This is a guy who wants to sell himself, literally, as a passer-by that just had a suspicion. First he`s relieving himself. Then he`s on the side of the road. It`s a black garbage bag. Part of the search warrant, there is no black garbage bag.
Then he`s on the right side of the road and he sees a white thing. You know, remember, he says this is just a suspicion. If that`s right, then how come it wasn`t enough? How come he wasn`t satisfied when the police said to him, "You know what? We searched the area two weeks ago. The cadaver dogs were here. There`s nothing here."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because of the way the cop responded. He`s saying he tried to get the cop to go into the water and he didn`t want to go into the water.
WEINTRAUB: Why was he insisting?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Because he was suspicious, because he has a history of being a bounty hunter and a bail bondsman, and he has a good gut. And he was looking, and he said this is a perfect place. It`s a swampy area on both sides on a street that`s not very well-traveled. It`s 15 homes from the Anthonys`. There`s a suspicious-looking bag. I think that`s it. And his gut was telling him that it was it. And I don`t have any reason to believe that he`s lying.
WEINTRAUB: I`ll tell you why. I`ll tell you why he`s not credible. No. 1, because the Orange County sheriff got out that night and said he was credible before they even ran a background check.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, wait, wait. I have to -- I have to say one thing. I want to get Nicole DeBorde`s response on this. The deputy who is under fire, who supposedly responded in that lackadaisical way, has faced other complaints of a similar nature. We have a graphic.
In 2006, he was accused of not investigating an issue. We don`t know what happened with that. In 2007, he was exonerated for unspecified use of force. In March 2007, he was accused of failing to properly investigate a threatening phone call. That allegation was deemed unfounded. Last January, complaint of loitering. The list goes on and on.
Now, I want to say that we want to hear his side of the story. And there are two sides to every story. But what do you make of the fact that this deputy has sort of a history of similar issues?
DEBORDE: Well, I think it`s definitely troubling. And aside from whether or not he had any history or not, we have a firsthand personal account by someone who was there saying, "I told him exactly what I wanted him to look at. He wouldn`t do it. I watched what he did. It did not satisfy me. I was so fed up at that point that I didn`t care. And so I didn`t pursue it further."
But that`s really troubling because it probably could have saved a lot of time and a lot of money and a lot of heartache if he had just done what he was supposed to do and followed up on the lead.
RUSSELL: Jane, obviously, in hindsight, he should have handled this one differently, but I can tell you that many cops have complaints like that.
RUSSELL: Cops can`t go through their careers without having people go, "Oh, he didn`t investigate my thing."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I agree with you. That`s why I say we really need to hear from him. And of course, he may be precluded from speaking, because he`s in the department. But I think that there are two sides to every story.
RUSSELL: You know, Jane...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Everybody hold on one second. I have much more analysis from our expert panel in just a minute. I want to hear from you. Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. What do you think of the e-mail Cindy Anthony apparently sent in defense of her in-prison daughter? We`ll find out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CINDY ANTHONY: I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can`t find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she`s been trying to find her herself. There`s something wrong. I found my daughter`s car today. And it smells like there`s been a dead body in the damn car.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A clearly distraught Cindy Anthony reporting her granddaughter, Caylee, missing a month after she disappeared.
Call me now: 1-877-JVM-SAYS. That`s 1-877-586-7297 with your thoughts on the day`s shocking developments.
And we want to get the thoughts of Rick Robinson, who is a former state trooper from West Virginia. We`ve got you now. You`ve been hearing this whole controversy. I`m sure you...
RICK ROBINSON, FORMER WEST VIRGINIA STATE TROOPER: Yes, and I -- I am absolutely outraged. Being serious, you`ve got a law enforcement officer that we actually don`t know what he did or he didn`t do. We know what Kronk said he did.
You`ve got -- you know, my entire career, I have said to the public, we can`t solve crimes without your help. So Kronk may be a good, decent guy who got ticked of because he believed that he was getting inaction. He made a number of phone calls, and he actually probably didn`t know one way or the other whether they went there when he made the nighttime calls, the ones back in August.
But when he met the officer, the thing was infested with snakes. I mean, maybe Brian would be strong enough that you would walk through that swamp, but...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But don`t you call -- doesn`t the officer then say, "Look, we`ve got a report of..."
ROBINSON: He may have said that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: "We need to bring in some backup. We need a boat. We need -- whatever we need to get in there."
ROBINSON: He could have gone back to the station and talked to his commander and did precisely that. We really don`t know.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The report says that he -- he reported trash only. And that`s a quote.
ROBINSON: That was the radio traffic. But we don`t know what happened when he went back to the station. We don`t know what he saw. We don`t know what the officer saw. For all we know, they`d already had that area under surveillance. They knew precisely what was there and what wasn`t.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And by the way, more is coming out about Roy Kronk. According to the "Orlando Sentinel," he owes $10,000...
ROBINSON: Ten thousand bucks, yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... in back child support to his ex-wife.
WEINTRAUB: Nice guy. And the kidnapping to the grand jury. I never saw no true bill in a kidnapping case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, that was supposedly an ex-girlfriend called him and said, "Hey, I want to get out of here. Come and help me." And he got -- I mean, we have to say that he was completely exonerated in that, because he was helping out an ex-girlfriend. I mean...
ROBINSON: No, no, no, no, no. He...
WEINTRAUB: This is why people are never Good Samaritans.
ROBINSON: They just didn`t return a true bill on that, which meant they didn`t have the evidence to indict him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
ROBINSON: It doesn`t mean he didn`t do it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Linda -- Linda in Texas, your question or thought, ma`am?
CALLER: Hi, yes. I would like to see Roy Kronk, the private investigator, psychic, anybody involved in this all take lie detector tests.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Excellent idea.
CALLER: Because that really might solve some of this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Kathi Belich, any hope of that?
BELICH: No -- no one can be forced to do that. I don`t think the private investigator has even just voluntarily handed over phone records yet. So I don`t know.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Brenda in Canada, thought our question, ma`am?
CALLER: Yes, I was just wondering with all of the controversy right now going on with the P.I. and the psychic, could this be the reason why the Anthonys have asked for immunity? And also if there`s any truth to it, can they be charged with obstruction of justice and be threatened with jail time to make this 22-year-old nobody talk?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I want my entire panel to ponder that question. We are just about out of time for this segment, but in a couple of seconds, you`re going to have to ask that question. More on Caylee Anthony in just moments.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Bombshells in the Caylee Anthony murder case as the cop slammed by meter reader Roy Kronk -- refuses to talk about charges that he rudely blew off a tip that could have solved the case four months earlier. It`s not the first time this officer has faced complaints of failing to properly investigate.
We`ll investigate and take your calls.
And we`re back, discussing the latest twists and turns in the Caylee Anthony murder case. My fantastic panel: Kathi Belich, reporter with CNN affiliate WFTV, Orlando; Nicole Deborde, criminal defense attorney, and a former DA; Attorney Jayne Weintraub, criminal defense attorney; and Dr. Brian Russell, a forensic psychologist and attorney -- two for one there; Rick Robinson, former West Virginia state trooper.
I`m going to hand it off to you, Nicole Deborde, the last question from that viewer, who can be charged with obstruction of justice depending on what?
NICOLE DEBORDE, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s possible that anybody that stops the police from getting information about the case could be charged with obstruction if the person on purpose prevented the discovery of certain evidence or hid the evidence or moved the evidence or did something to damage the evidence.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
DEBORDE: But we don`t know that right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes we don`t but let`s take a look at some really stunning video of private eye, Dominic Casey; this time in the yard of an abandoned house close to where Caylee Anthony`s remains were eventually found.
We see him there opening up trash bag, sifting, poking, slashing, seaming to searching for something. Kathi Belich, where is this house and what do you know about it?
KATHI BELICH, WFTV, ORLANDO REPORTER: The house -- neighbors say it`s been abandoned for about a year. It`s owned by a Gonzalez family.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s unbelievable because, of course, Casey had claimed Zenaida Gonzales stole the baby.
BELICH: Yes and our legal analyst doesn`t think that`s a coincidence. That that`s why the private investigator was at that particular house, is that`s less a mile from the Anthony`s home. The psychic claims she is the who directed the Anthony`s private investigator there, but the private investigator who was actually shooting that video, he said that the direction she had given last night that she claimed that she had given to Dominic Casey would not have gotten them to that house.
And he also says that Dominic Casey never mentioned anything about a psychic telling him anything. And he was very secretive about who he was on the phone with. And Hoover says that just doesn`t add up to him. Why would Dominic Casey keep a secret about a psychic`s tip?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So let me get this straight. And Brian Russell, we need a shrink to weigh in on this, there`s an abandoned house there right near -- and it`s a tragic case. That`s why it`s so -- it`s so tough to talk about this because there`s so many ludicrous aspects of the case as well.
It`s a dichotomy, in a sense. But right near where the child`s remains were eventually found, there is this abandoned house, and the house is owned by somebody named Gonzales and Casey said that Zenaida Gonzales kidnapped the baby. Do the math.
BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Well, that was a sensible location to go and search. Look, the psychic is a side show.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, no. I`m saying do the math as to assuming Casey, for example, is guilty of what she`s charged. Would she leave the child there at a place near an abandoned home owned by Gonzales? Remember, friends said she hung out there as a kid. The Gonzales theme -- there`s some kind of a Gonzales theme.
RUSSELL: I don`t know if the Gonzales has anything to do with it. But I think more that this was a place that she was probably -- assuming that this is what she did, she dumped the body in this location -- she was familiar with this place. They had buried pets there as kids reportedly from some of her friends. It was close to the house.
Somebody in a panic would think, where can I go to dispose of this body quickly? That I know is kind of concealed and hopefully maybe even it will flood. It floods all the time. And maybe it`ll flood and I`ll get lucky. And they`ll be week and weeks go by --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I have a theory that I`m just developing now as we speak, Kathi Belich, I would be very curious to know how long that home was abandoned. Because I think that this Gonzales may be her Rose Bud.
That there`s something from her childhood involving somebody named Gonzales. She hang out there as kid, maybe she knew somebody named Gonzales. I don`t know. But I think it`s just too much of a coincidence that she claims that a Zenaida Gonzales took the child, that there is a house there that`s owned by the Gonzales. Am I out of my mind or --
BELICH: No, no. Our legal analyst thinks the whole video was staged for the defense to try to create reasonable doubt. And he said what better place to go than an abandoned house that`s owned by a Gonzales family to just sort of try to throw confusion into the situation.
He doesn`t think it`s any coincidence whatsoever. That`s his theory. But the neighbors say that house has been abandoned for a year.
The other curious thing is that private investigator Dominic Casey, if he really thought he was going to find something there, he never called law enforcement to go to that house.
And you see on the video how he went about his alleged search of that house. No gloves, digging things, cutting things. He could have damaged fingerprints. You know, our legal analyst just doesn`t believe that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s talk a little bit about the relationship between the mother and daughter. And again, I have to go to Brian Russell. This email that Cindy said saying her daughter didn`t do it. It`s going to be proven. And yet there are reports that right before little Caylee went missing, according to (inaudible), there was a huge fight between Cindy and Casey and she went -- left the house.
RUSSELL: Yes. I think that there`s a high chance that Cindy Anthony is feeling a lot of guilt right now. Number one, she reportedly talked to Casey out of giving Caylee up for adoption when she wanted to back when she was pregnant; said that she would help her raise the child.
Obviously had that decision been different, Caylee would probably be living somewhere right now and we wouldn`t even be talking about this case.
Then there`s the big fight that maybe, you know, caused Casey to get angry. And who knows what -- want to do something directly to Caylee or do something like try to sedate Caylee so she could go off with the boyfriend. And maybe Cindy wouldn`t help watch the child that night or something.
I think there`s a high chance that Cindy has got some guilt feelings. And also look, she doesn`t have anything left to preserve with her relationship with her daughter here. That`s all that`s left for her.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, and you know what I think we`re go to have to leave it right there. But I will say I think it`s absolutely fascinating to see how much attention Casey Anthony is now getting from her parents.
And I think a lot of kids do things in order to get attention. And I think this issue has been raised. Was she jealous of the attention that Cindy and George were giving her daughter? I don`t have the answer to that, but I think it`s an excellent question.
And I want to thank my fantastic panel for all of their amazing insights. Please come back real soon. Obviously this case isn`t going anywhere.
Now, turning to the absolutely wild, bizarre case of fugitive money manager Marcus Schrenker: he allegedly staged a plane crash to fake his own death and has just been charged with intentionally downing a plane and faking a distress call.
Tonight, new details about the motivation of this high-flying money man: he was captured late last night after making that phony call, parachuting from his plane, which he left on autopilot and then riding a getaway motorcycle to a Florida campsite. There he apparently tried to take his own life for real.
According to a U.S. Marshal, he was bleeding profusely from wounds to his left arm, including a slashed wrist. He was barely coherent and verbally resisted medical care saying the word, "die". Cops say Schrenker took off from his home state of Indiana in a single-engine piper jet bound for Florida.
They suspect he bailed out over Alabama, hopped the motorcycle, checked into a hotel under an assumed name and then fled again. The unmanned plane later slammed into the ground just 50 yards from a group of homes. Authorities say Schrenker defrauded investors including friends who trusted him.
At the same time, a contrite email he sent a friend points to possible remorse. Quote, "I embarrassed my family for the last time. By the time you read this, I`ll be gone."
Joining me, the man who says that email was sent to him; friend and neighbor Tom Britt. Tom, thank you so much for joining us tonight.
TOM BRITT, NEIGHBOR AND FRIEND OF SCHRENCKER: Oh sure, no problem.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We appreciate it. You believe you were instrumental in actually capturing Marcus. Tell us the story of this email and how you think it was used by authorities to track Marcus down.
BRITT: Yes, I mean, I don`t believe that I was instrumental. I just kind to happened to be a person who knew Marc. And I got this email out of the blue on Monday night that eventually I think helped the police catch him. I just talked to a --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How? How? In other words, he sent you an email from where and how did that tip off authorities as to where he was?
BRITT: Well, he logged on to a computer down at the campsite. The office had a campground computer. He went in and asked if he could borrow it. And he used that computer -- I think to check the news to see what kind of big splash he`d made in the news that day.
Then secondly, he saw the news and thought he needed to send some kind of a message to me to help get his message out to the media.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Would it be correct to assume that when he looked at the news, he figured he was going to see -- money man dies in plane crash and what he actually saw was money man fakes death and jumped out of his plane is now loose and everybody is searching for him?
BRITT: Yes, that makes a lot more sense. I think his intention was to have that plane go off into the gulf and he`d be fish food. That`s why the blood and that`s why he talked to the control tower about having so much blood on him with the thought that if the plane was underwater for a few days, and before it was found they could just chalk it up to the sharks ate him and he could have rode off into the sunset.
But I think what happened is he got to that camp ground and he saw the news and he realized that oh, my gosh, the plane didn`t go down in the ocean and they`re going to figure out that I`m on the run somewhere. I think at that point, he just kind of decided to lay low. And before he did so he sent me this email.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tom, you were a buddy of his. People who were ripped off by him, allegedly, say he was a pathological liar. And he was also allegedly cheating on his wife. She`s in the process of getting a divorce from him. Did you sense any of this?
BRITT: No. I mean, you don`t want to believe that stuff. I`ve known Marc for about four or five years. I wouldn`t say we`re great friends. I would say we`re very good acquaintances. And we`ve done some business together, fortunately I didn`t invest any money with him, but I did some marketing for him.
You know, I always heard those stories about Marc. You always heard him from people about his history and his background. And I just always give him the benefit of the doubt and I always thought, you know, he doesn`t treat me that way and I find it hard to believe that he treats others that I`m going -- I always go cautiously in every conversation and every dealing with him.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But you didn`t feel scared or anything like that? Yes or no because --
BRITT: No. I wasn`t scared or anything like that, no.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, Tom thanks.
Just an unbelievable story, like it`s pulled right from the movies. More analysis from my expert panel in just a minute. It`s your turn to weigh in. Call 1-877-JVM-SAYS to sound off on this truly outrages case.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A fugitive investor tries faking his own death after suffering huge financial losses. I will tell you how the part-time stunt pilot tried to outsmart cops by putting his plane on autopilot and then jumping out -- it`s an unbelievable story.
But first, "Top of the Block" tonight.
Breaking news in the case against Wall Street swindler Bernie Madoff that will have you fuming -- I`m outraged -- Judge Lawrence McKenna rejected prosecutors` requests to revoke bail and send Madoff behind bars; looks like we have another judge drinking the Madoff kool-aid, folks. Madoff once again avoided a jail cell despite allegedly violating bail terms by trying to transfer over $1 million of assets under his new supposedly stricter house arrest. Madoff`s wife pays for the security team that watches over him.
Now, I want to ask you a question. Do you think she`s paying for that with stolen money that should be returned to the investors? Are you angry yet? Well, get this, new details indicate Madoff`s lawyer is trying to cut a plea deal which could end in no trial for Madoff. Got to love our legal system -- not.
Now, whether justice will be served in the other case of that other alleged financial schemer, Marcus Schrenker, who threw himself out of a moving plane, which he left on autopilot and which later crashed 50 yards from homes, he is now under arrest in the hospital.
So much to talk about. I want to hear from you. Give me a holler, 1- 877-JVM-SAYS; that`s 1-877-586-7297 and weigh in.
Let`s go straight to my fantastic expert panel: Lisa Bloom, anchor of "In Session", Terry Lyles, psychologist; and John Crawford, staff writer and city reporter for the "Tallahassee Democrat."
John, okay, we want to get the whole picture. He takes off from Indiana and at one point he radios he`s in trouble. What does he say and what does he do?
JOHN CRAWFORD, REPORTER, "TALLAHASSEE DEMOCRAT": Well, I think the -- the big question was after he radioed and said he was in trouble and you get into this question of whether or not -- he said that the window had been blown in. Investigators on the ground said it hadn`t been. At that point, apparently he exited the aircraft.
Military aircraft were sent up to intercept the plane. They saw the cabin was dark, the door was ajar. And apparently this was somewhere over Birmingham, Alabama. Parachuted down and had stashed a motorcycle, a red Yamaha motorcycle in a storage facility there.
And he -- the story is very funny. Apparently a couple of police officers actually picked him up. He was wet and had flying goggles on; said he needed some help. And they took him to a local hotel before realizing who he was. By the time they went back, he was gone and the motorcycle had been left and he had fled Birmingham for his way to Florida.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, what`s so fascinating in, this is just in. They`ve just found a book that has notation marks where he`s written "cracked windshield, window imploded." So this was apparently, allegedly, very carefully orchestrated by a man who everybody is now saying or a lot of people are saying is a pathological liar.
LISA BLOOM, ANCHOR, "IN SESSION": Yes, here`s how the legal issues are going to break down: consciousness of guilt, I think that`s the operative phrase. He knew that he had done wrong in many ways, probably to his wife, probably to his investors and all the legal problems he was having, and that`s why he fled. That`s why he had this elaborate scheme. It was consciousness of guilt.
I think that`s what the state is going to argue. On the other hand, mental defect would be what his defense is going to argue. He was suicidal. He was upset. He said, "die" when he was discovered. He wasn`t in his right mind and therefore he shouldn`t be convicted of anything.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think he`s going to be convicted -- he`s certainly been charged with a heck of a lot. But you don`t bail out of a plane saying you`ve got blood on your face and the windshield has imploded when there is no imploded windshield. The windshield was found to be fine and there was blood in the cockpit. And let that plane crashed 50 yards from homes.
According to experts, if the plane had stayed in the air one more second and traveled 50 feet more, it could have plowed into homes, killing people.
BLOOM: Yes. And, Jane, I think what we can do is add to all the many charges he`s already facing for financial fraud, we can add to that lying to authorities and reckless endangerment of all of the people in those homes in that community who, thank God, were not actually harmed by his reckless behavior.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Exactly. Here`s what the attorney for Marcus` estranged wife is saying. "Michelle first contacted me this past summer to discuss a divorce from her husband because he was having an affair. Her decision to file for divorce was based on her husband`s infidelity and no way based on the investment fraud of which he`s accused."
In fact, Michelle first learned of the allegations against him when on December 31st, 2008, the police and investigators came to her door to search her home to Michelle`s dismay. At that time, her home was being searched; Marcus was in Florida with his girlfriend.
Terry Lyles, he cheated on his wife, allegedly, he lied about this whole fake death, and on top of that, he`s accused of fraud and essentially churning accounts with huge commissions like 18 percent commissions and moving accounts back and forth so that -- basically dwindling down these accounts of people that he was close to.
TERRY LYLES, PSYCHOLOGIST: I think it`s interesting. You were about was it suicide? What was it? I could have taken it as suicide if he had jumped with no parachute. The problem was he planned his landing and getaway with a motorcycle, and then later got into that situation where --
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Okay, well, the thing is that he actually did in the end.
LYLES: Yes, exactly.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The irony is he apparently tried to commit suicide by slashing his wrist at the very end. But give me a quick diagnosis on this guy.
LYLES: Well, you know, I think Plan A failed, you know?
I think -- I don`t think that he had any intention of killing himself. He had an elaborate plan to escape.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What`s his mental state? Is he a malignant narcissist? Give us a title here for this guy?
LYLES: I would say that`s probably a close title. I don`t know, having not diagnosed him but he sounds like he`s very narcissistic and that`s where a lot of the pathology of lying comes from because they believe their own stories.
There could be some other diagnoses around him but he obviously was sane enough to put a plan together and execute that plan. The problem was Plan A failed. He went to Plan B in the campground.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, absolutely.
Okay, more bombshells in this absolutely wild case in just a moment. Hang in there, fabulous panel, we`ve got more in a bit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES KINNEY, FORMER VICTIM OF SCHRENKER: I`ve never in my life seen anybody that could a dishonest untruth that he told over and over again and expect you to believe. I guess that`s one thing that caught me by surprise in my dealings with him. I`ve never dealt with anybody with that the level of dishonesty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That was dentist Charles Kinney who says his parents were duped by alleged financial scammer Michael Schrenker who is in the hospital tonight and facing a host charges.
Sheeba, Illinois; Question or thought, ma`am?
SHEEBA, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Yes, Jane. I would like to know if he was found with any money?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Apparently he was. John Crawford, thoughts?
CRAWFORD: There hasn`t been anything put out as far as how much money he had. They did say the United States Marshal did say that he had everything he needed to go on the lam for quite a while as far as food and supplies and water went.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Tracy, Nevada; question or thought, ma`am?
TRACY, CALLER FROM NEVADA: My thought is how come these people who have so much money seem to get away with anything they want in the law? When average citizens, like myself, have to pay and work to get through everything that -- every bit of trouble I`ve ever been in and these people with people money just get to walk away.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa Bloom, I think it`s a good question.
BLOOM: It sure is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that certainly applies to the Bernie Madoff situation going on right now. But in this case, this guy could be going to the slammer for life
BLOOM: Well, he certainly could and by the way Bernie Madoff is in the 75 percent of people accused of fraud who do get out on bail. He hasn`t been tried yet. So we still have some hope there.
But you`re right. Here`s the reality. If you`re rich, you get better lawyers. You get better expert witnesses. You get to use the system to your advantage. Have all of your rights protected. Unfortunately, that does not apply if you`re poor. That`s the sad reality of our system.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Take a look at this picture. To me it speaks volumes about this man`s materialism. It`s coming up in a second and his obsession with status. Take a look at this. He`s got the fancy car, the plane, the bombshell wife, perfectly clothed. And it`s not just wearing (ph), it`s the way it`s posed.
What does this say, Terry Lyles, about his mentality and his obsession with materialism and appearances?
LYLES: Well, I think it takes a picture frame very brightly around his narcissism. And the problem with that is when you start believing your own lies -- it`s been said he`s a pathological liar -- when you start believing your own lies that`s when it gets worse. That`s why he can have the affair and think he can get away with it, swindle people`s money and get away with it and then lastly, dive out of an airplane and get away with it.
But you know what? It caught up with him and they will, I believe, convict him on all of those things because it failed.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, it sure did and it`s a cautionary tale. Lisa, Terry, John, thanks so much for joining me.
BLOOM: Thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Please come back.
I am Jane Velez-Mitchell and you are watching "ISSUES" on HLN.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We continue to follow the tragic case of the young mother shot dead while trying to save her 4-year-old son from the clutches of an accused child molester. An Ohio judge has just ruled that the little boy will tell his story to a grand jury. More details on that tomorrow "ISSUES."
Right now it`s time to check in with Nancy Grace. Hey, Nancy, what do you have for us tonight?
NANCY GRACE, ANCHOR, "NANCY GRACE SHOW": Jane, stunning reports emerge. Tot mom Casey Anthony`s brother seeking criminal immunity, facing possible obstruction charges. And also is a sheriff`s deputy connected to the Anthony investigation now under investigation? The defense gears up to challenge the state`s cadaver dog evidence hiring a renowned anthropologist.
And Jane, the crucial first 72 hours have passed in the search for a six-year-old little boy, southwest Florida.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s a desperate situation. We can only hope he`ll be found safely. Thank you, Nancy.
"Nancy Grace" starts right now.