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Jon Gosselin Sues for Custody

Aired April 7, 2010 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A million-dollar mansion, a TV deal, personal stylists, a fleet of luxury cars, beautiful people, eight beautiful children, they had it all. Then allegations Daddy siphoning the very last drop of the family`s money to support all his girlfriends and his lavish lifestyle, siphoning to the tune of a quarter million dollars, allegations of illegal wiretapping, phone taps, bank account, computer surveillance by Daddy, a known computer specialist, charges of drug use, X-rated sleepovers with a female bartender Daddy allegedly hires to babysit in the home with the children asleep upstairs. And that`s the tip of the iceberg. Who? "Jon and Kate Plus Eight." Who else could it be?

Bombshell tonight. With the ink barely dry on divorce papers, Mommy Kate not only hits the trail for a book tour but stars on the hit show "Dancing With the Stars." Daddy, Jon Gosselin? He moves to a $5,000-a- month bachelor pad in New York, quote, "exploring job opportunities." After dating a string of women, turning up in bars all over the country, Gosselin now bunking on the sofa at his brother`s house in Maryland, still no job.

But listen to this. The very morning after Kate survives another round of cuts on "Dancing With the Stars" last night, Jon Gosselin files legal papers the morning after, demanding primary custody of the eight children, insisting he shouldn`t pay child support to her. Oh, no, she should pay him!


JON GOSSELIN, "JON AND KATE PLUS 8": Our number one priority for Kate and I is our kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the ongoing saga of the Gosselins.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jon Gosselin reportedly wants custody of the kids.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m just fed up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His attorney telling TMZ that ex-wife Kate Gosselin`s appearance on ABC`s "Dancing With the Stars" is harmful to the children.

KATE GOSSELIN, "JON AND KATE PLUS 8": I know that my kids were happy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s my job. That`s what I do.

KATE GOSSELIN: I mean, my story is that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The attorney reportedly says he will use the reality TV show as evidence that Kate Gosselin is an absentee mother...

KATE GOSSELIN: Constructive criticism is great.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... that does not spend quality time with the children.

KATE GOSSELIN: You know, suddenly, you`re a monster mom. I mean, that just kills me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not only that, but Jon Gosselin`s attorney allegedly calls his client`s $20,000-a-month child support payment, quote, "ridiculous"...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s hard core. It`s (INAUDIBLE) it`s ridiculous.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... and wants to get it reversed...

KATE GOSSELIN: I`m scared, as usual!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... making Kate Gosselin pay child support.

KATE GOSSELIN: Oh, my gosh, what am I doing? Like, Is this never going to end?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kate Gosselin responded today, not commenting on the custody claims, but did say she is and always will be a mother first.

KATE GOSSELIN: And I am completely and utterly embarrassed.


GRACE: And tonight, live, Michigan. Police find two little children hungry, thirsty, terrified, locked in a car at least two days straight. Why? Of course, it was Daddy`s two days of visitation. He turned it all into a big drunk, leaving the tots alone to fend for themselves, locked in Daddy`s Pontiac Grand Prix while he partied 48 straight.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: On Thursday, the father had apparently picked up his two boys for a scheduled visitation, but by Sunday morning, he was in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty-eight-year-old Richard Lebeau (ph) of Hillsdale County now facing a possibility of four years behind bars. He`s charged with second-degree child abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was devastated. I was shocked.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His two boys, ages 4 and 6, told deputies they were in the car for several days and that the grown-ups were driving around, partying, neglecting to feed them the whole time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know how they could do that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you understand the charges, Mr. Lebeau?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do, your honor.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Arrested Sunday, it was this 911 call that ultimately led deputies to the car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They look probably about 3 and 4. They`re really young.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think one might have been sleeping, and the other one started to open the door when I came out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The children said they were in the vehicle for a couple days with Dad and Uncle and that they were driving around, partying, as they put it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lebeau and his brother were eventually located drinking at the bar inside the bowling alley. The children were surrounded by empty beer cans, locked in the car. The children`s grandmother is appalled.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They should have been home in their warm little jammies and in their bed instead of driving around with their dad, who was doing God only knows what with my grandchildren in the back seat!


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Bombshell tonight. "Jon and Kate Plus 8" -- with the ink barely dry on their divorce papers, the morning after Kate Gosselin survives another round of cuts on "Dancing With the Stars" last night, Jon Gosselin marches into court, files legal papers demanding primary custody of the eight children, insisting he shouldn`t pay child support to her. Oh, no, he says she should pay him!


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The girl with eight kids who had this reality show, everybody knows who she is...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kate Gosselin may be out "Dancing With the Stars"...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let`s bring them on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... but Jon Gosselin just filed a lawsuit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s part of my life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gosselin says he wants primary custody of their eight kids, the former reality TV star also asking the court to take another look at the child support agreement.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was real frustration, let me tell you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jon says the support payments were set without Kate Gosselin providing proof of her expenses relating to the kids. This as reporting Jon is going broke.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please, people, stop interfering in our lives. They love the camera crew.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a really frustrating situation for me.

JON GOSSELIN: Kate and I both love our kids.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m going to nail this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s the way it is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just how will this impact custody of the eight children who are hanging in the balance?

JON GOSSELIN: (INAUDIBLE) for the kids. We`ve always been there for them.

KATE GOSSELIN: I was, like, yes.

JON GOSSELIN: That`s how we work together.

KATE GOSSELIN: I miss them. One day this week during practice, I had a little meltdown while we were dancing. And I heard them upstairs, and I just, like, started crying. And I was, like, I just miss my kids.


GRACE: You just saw Kate Gosselin on ABC`s "Good Morning America."

Straight out to Marc Malkin with E!, Online columnist. Marc, thank you for being with us. Marc, she survives another round of cuts. And I don`t care what anybody says, that show, "Dancing With the Stars," is grueling. It is like boot camp getting ready for that thing. So she survives another round last night. It`s a big, triumphant victory for her. And he goes into court this morning and demands what?

MARC MALKIN, E! ONLINE COLUMNIST: He is asking for -- he gives right now something like $20,000 a month to Kate. Now he wants Kate to be paying him, and he wants primary custody of the kids. He says she`s an absentee mom.

GRACE: She`s an absentee mom. Joining us tonight, everyone, is a very special guest, very well-known attorney Anthony F. List. He is the attorney for Jon Gosselin, joining us out of Philadelphia. Mr. List, thank you for being with us. Mr. List, where is your client, Jon Gosselin, living right now?

ANTHONY F. LIST, ATTORNEY FOR JON GOSSELIN: He`s living somewhere in Maryland. I have the address, but I don`t think it would be advisable to give it out.

GRACE: Sir, Mr. List, you are so right. It`s my understanding he is bunking on his brother`s sofa in Maryland?

LIST: Well, you know, I just answered the question, Nancy. I`m not going to give you any more information. I...

GRACE: Don`t want the address, I promise you. I don`t need to know the address where he is. So how is it that he is going to take care of all of the children off of his brother`s sofa and wants her to pay him? I mean, Mr. List, you`re a very well-known attorney. You`ve got an excellent reputation. Certainly you see that it looks like she`s gotten a job, he doesn`t. He hasn`t had a job since he did the "Jon and Kate Plus 8." So now he wants her to support him with child support. That`s what it looks like.

LIST: Nancy, you`re a very smart lady and a very good attorney yourself, and you know that. That`s not what he asked for. Read the pleadings that were filed today in court. They were very specific. He is asking the court to review the question of child support. He is asking the court to review the issue of custody. Do you realize that today, the way the order stands, Kate Gosselin has sole discretion to determine whether or not Jon is able to see the eight children? Do you know of any other custody agreement that provides for such a -- you know, a lopsided arrangement? As far as child support...

GRACE: Well, you know, that`s a very good point, Anthony. That`s an excellent point. And it brings to mind the question why a court, a judge, or an arbitrator would have awarded that to her. What was it about Jon Gosselin that made a court or an arbitrator agree that she should dole out custody -- visitation as she sees fit?

LIST: Well, I think the fact that when Jon Gosselin walked into that very hearing that was to decide these very important issues, he did so with a New York attorney who had been representing him, and he was told that moment that he was not allowed to have the New York attorney represent him at that hearing. The lawyer from New York was told he could not participate, he could not question any witnesses, he could not offer any evidence. So Jon stood naked in the eyes of the law, while Kate was, as they say, lawyered up...

GRACE: Well, did they ever think...

LIST: She had four lawyers.

GRACE: Did they ever think of getting a continuance in order to get a lawyer that could practice in that jurisdiction?

LIST: You or I would have done that in a second, but that wasn`t done. It was never requested.

GRACE: OK. Well, OK...

LIST: Jon`s not a lawyer.

GRACE: I understand. I understand that the line is it was the lawyer`s fault. OK. I understand that.

We are taking your calls live. Out to Kelli Zink at What about the timing of this, Kelli Zink? She hits it big on "Dancing With the Stars." Millions of people watch it. It`s fantastic. It`s exciting. It`s beautiful outfits. There she is, the whole Broadway makeup and it`s very glitzy and glamorous. And she survives the round. The next morning...


GRACE: ... they file this.

ZINK: Of course, because Jon wants the attention back. Jon wants to be off the F-list and he wants to go back in the spotlight. You know, he just got dumped by one of his girlfriends, so he wants the attention back. Just like last time the show gets canceled, Jon runs right to the paparazzi again. This guy just wants attention.

I`m afraid for these children. I mean, people are always saying, Whose side are you on, Kate or Jon? It`s you`re on the children`s side. Sure, Kate`s getting all the attention, but Jon has to be a dad first.

GRACE: Hold on. Let`s back it up, Kelli Zink. Everybody, that`s video from ABC`s "Dancing With the Stars." Kelli, forget the attention. Who`s bringing home the money? Who is supporting the children?

ZINK: Exactly!

GRACE: Look, my mom worked long, hard hours, as did my father, and I can`t imagine somebody suggesting because she worked that she should lose custody.

ZINK: You`re absolutely right, Nancy. I mean, Kate`s -- her life is lived out in the public, but she`s still a working mom. There`s plenty of moms that work just as hard as she does. She`s making a ton of money from this, her book. Jon? Unemployed.


KATE GOSSELIN: I have eight kids to raise, essentially, you know, by myself. And the fact is, I`ve got to do what counts. And I could go back to work as a nurse, but I wouldn`t see my kids any more than I do now. And so I do feel like it`s unfair.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re headed back to court with Kate to discuss some custody issues. Any truth to that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s just another piece of baggage.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have your little meltdowns at home behind closed doors, if you need to.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is this never going to end? I`ve asked that question many times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have noticed you spend a lot of quality time with the kids in the last couple days, which is good for you and them. So is this a bid to try to do a little bit more of that in the future?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That was real frustration, let me tell you.

JON GOSSELIN: It`s ridiculous. I`m just fed up of people saying that we`re doing things to our kids. Our number one priority for Kate and I is our kids.

KATE GOSSELIN: I can honestly say that there is so much on my plate right now that I absolutely cannot react that way to every little thing that comes by.

And nobody goes into a marriage or has kids, you know, planning a divorce. It`s not what I consider success, really. I`m not a quitter. So this is difficult to me because this feels like something that, you know, possibly was not in my plans. But they`re doing very well, considering. They`re great kids.

JON GOSSELIN: Kate and I both love our kids. We`ve always agreed upon anything for the kids.


GRACE: We are taking your calls live. To Nikki in Wisconsin. Hi, Nikki.


GRACE: Hi, love. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw earlier tonight on another HLN show where Kate was contributing (ph) a lot of the ratings on the "Dancing With the Stars" show to her. And I was just wondering, when are the two of them ever going to get a divorce?

GRACE: Oh, hold on. Correct me if I`m wrong, Clark Goldband, but isn`t the divorce final?

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy. That first started back in June of `09. It was finalized on December 18th of last year.

GRACE: You know, I guess we`ve been hearing about it for so long, Clark Goldband, it feels like it`s just ongoing.

With me tonight is a very special guest. He`s got an excellent reputation in the Philadelphia jurisdiction and beyond, and he is the new attorney for Jon Gosselin of formerly "Jon and Kate Plus 8," Anthony F. List out of Philadelphia.

So Mr. List, why doesn`t your client have a job? And is he still paying $5,000 a month for that New York apartment?

LIST: I don`t know what he`s paying for the New York apartment, if anything, but I know why he doesn`t have a job, because he`s bound by an agreement that was presented to him by TLC prohibiting him from engaging in any gainful employment. That same agreement also addressed Kate`s employment status and I think awarded her over $100,000 a month in income, and Jon got $5,000.

I mean, where`s the fairness in that? You know, I think it`s wonderful that she can come on with these canned statements as to how she didn`t want this to happen and that she, you know, feels sorry for various people involved. The important thing is -- and Nancy, you`re a mother of twin children 2 years old, as I recall. These children have never been seen by a professional. And you know that there`s ways that that can be done to see how they`re reacting to all of this.

GRACE: OK, Mr. List, I find it very hard to believe that he`s under a contract where he cannot work at all. Maybe he`s under a contract that says he cannot be in show business to compete with the former "Jon and Kate Plus 8," which as I recall, he filed papers to stop Kate from continuing filming that. And he is in a non-compete clause. But I find it very hard to believe that he can`t go out and get a job as, for instance, a computer specialist. That`s what his profession was before, wasn`t it?

LIST: Nancy, I agree with you. I think it is hard to believe. I think a lot of things that have happened in this case are hard to believe. I think Jon was at the mercy of a number of high-powered attorneys. He did not have counsel himself. There were...

GRACE: OK. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Mr. List?

LIST: Yes? Yes?

GRACE: He has been out at every bar between his home and Maryland with every girl 20 and -- 30 and under that he could get his hands on, partying, drinking, blowing money on expensive cars, $90 bottles of champagne. I find it very -- I mean, look, I mean, how can you say with a straight face he can`t work when he`s blowing money left and right? And one Ed Hardy (ph) T-shirt is what, $200, $300? Come on, give me a break, Mr. List!

LIST: Well, why don`t you give me a break and give me the evidence you have that he is out at bars in the evening and $90 champagne and doing all these treacherous things you talk about?



KATE GOSSELIN: A girl with eight kids who had this reality show...

I actually had a little bit of fun. Sort of unwanted attention, hounded by paparazzi.

I really feel for her because it`s difficult.

Every moment is being photographed. You`re disciplining a child, suddenly, you`re a monster mom.

JON GOSSELIN: Please, people, stop interfering in our lives.

KATE GOSSELIN: The judges have their opinions. I just have to feel like I measure up in my eyes.

JON GOSSELIN: Kate and I both love our kids. We`ve always agreed upon everything for the kids.

KATE GOSSELIN: This is a really frustrating situation for me.


GRACE: OK, here`s the evidence, Mr. List. You made me do it, all right? I didn`t have to show these, partying. Do the names 22-year-old Haley Glassman (ph), 26-year-old Kate Major (ph), 24-year-old Stephanie Santoro (ph), 25-year-old Morgan Christie (ph), a Las Vegas party girl -- I mean, here are the photos. You said, Where`s the evidence? Well, here it is!

LIST: I can`t see the photos. What do those photos depict? And try to be objective, if you could.

GRACE: Well, it`s your client out partying and drinking, all with very young women, many of them scantily clad. You know, you said this didn`t happen. You told me on national TV, Show me the evidence. I`m showing you. There he is downing some champagne...


GRACE: ... probably a $300 bottle of it, with Haley Glassman. Anyway, you asked me, and I -- you asked for it, I gave it to you.

LIST: OK. And I asked the judge for a judgment of acquittal because that`s not evidence, and you know it.

GRACE: OK. Back to the calls. Natalie in Indiana.

LIST: (INAUDIBLE) prosecutor.

GRACE: Hi, Natalie.


GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just would like to know how he could have the nerve to call her an absentee mother when all she`s trying to do is provide for her kids and he`s out running around with all these women.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. In addition to Anthony F. List out of Philadelphia, the renowned Raoul Felder, divorce attorney and author of "Getting Away With Murder" out of New York, Alan Ripka, defense attorney, New York, Randy Kessler, defense attorney, Atlanta.

First to you, Raoul Felder. You`ve handled some of the biggest divorces that have ever been known. What`s your take on this?

RAOUL FELDER, DIVORCE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, he blames the judge. He blames the contract he made. He blames the lawyers, of course. It`s like the kid who murders his parents and then complains he`s an orphan. He made these deals.

And by the way, the photographs of him sitting behind the wheel of an automobile -- he could be driving a cab if he can`t be on television. My suspicion is it`s exactly as you said, he`s forbidden to work in some kind of media job, but everything else he can do.


JON GOSSELIN: That`s the beauty of it. It`s almost like documentary. Whatever happens, happens.

KATE GOSSELIN: In my hard-on-myself opinion, I don`t feel like I did nail it, but I did do my best with what I had at that moment.

JON GOSSELIN: We don`t force them to do anything they don`t want to do.

KATE GOSSELIN: I`m just glad I got through it.

JON GOSSELIN: Not like 24/7 at all.




UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Breaking news. Jon Gosselin just filing a complaint in court against former wife and "Dancing with the Stars" contestant Kate Gosselin.

KATE GOSSELIN: Let`s bring them on.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Jon Gosselin wants primary custody of the kids and says Kate Gosselin has abused her authority over when he gets to see them.

GOSSELIN: I know that my kids were happy. And so to me that`s all that matters.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Jon Gosselin reportedly also plans to ask a judge to decrease the $20,000 a month Gosselin pays to his former wife for support.

Single mother of eight Kate Gosselin narrowly surviving another elimination on "Dancing with the Stars" as she reportedly earns $200,000 trying to provide for her eight kids.

GOSSELIN: I can do even better if I have the opportunity.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Jon, it`s been reported in the media that you`re headed back to court with Kate to discuss some custody issues. Any truth to that? Call the lawyer?

We have noticed you spend a lot of quality time with the kids over the last couple of days, which is good, I`m sure for you and them. So is this a bid to try to do a little bit more of that in the future?

GOSSELIN: Yes, that was true honor -- I mean, frustration and anger. Through this dance I wanted to show them that this is a really frustrating situation for me, to be hounded by paparazzi even when I don`t want them to be there.

I mean, I go to the grocery store and Target and the post office. Really, how much fun is that? And the stories they make up as a result of that. And so for us this song, in fact, when it came out, like I don`t know how many people texted me and they were like this is your --


GRACE: That was Kate Gosselin talking to We are taking your calls. Out to Serena in Michigan, hi, Serena.

SERENA, CALLER FROM MICHIGAN: Hi, Nancy, I just want to tell you how much I love your show and how much of a role model you are to every mother out there. You`re wonderful.

GRACE: You know what? I really appreciate that. I don`t feel that way. But I`m grateful to you saying that. Thank you. What`s your question, love?

SERENA: Yes, Nancy, I just had a comment and a question.


SERENA: I just want to say, you know, I understand being a single parent that I am, it is important to work and to make an income. So I don`t fault her for that. But I do think that Jon loves his kids, but I also feel that he`s been very irresponsible in his choices in the past. And I think this is a publicity stunt on his behalf at the expense of his children.

My question, though, to the attorneys would be, how is it that if he doesn`t have a job that he can afford $20,000 a month?

GRACE: You know, that`s an excellent question. And I`m going to throw that to Anthony F. List, his attorney. How is he paying child support of $20,000 a month?

ANTHONY F. LIST, ATTORNEY FOR JON GOSSELIN: The way he has been paying is that there were certain monies set aside in the overall equitable distribution award that was escrowed to take care of his child support obligation.

So although he`s not earning enough to justify that amount, he is paying it through that escrowed monies. And he is --

GRACE: Got it.

LIST: And he is current on it, Nancy, as far as I know.

GRACE: Well, you know what? I`m glad to hear that, Mr. List, because the last thing he needs to add to his resume is deadbeat dad. You`ve got to give him credit. He is paying his child support.

But you know, back to what the caller said, Serena in Michigan, I`m going to throw this to Caryn Stark, psychologist. She said she believes Jon Gosselin does love the children. I don`t know who could look at those children and not love them.

But Caryn, why live in Maryland or a bachelor pad in New York City when your children are in an entirely different state? If you love them so much, why not be near them?

CARYN STARK, PSYCHOLOGIST: In addition to what you`re saying, Nancy, why would you do something like this and put your kids in the middle? Which is the class that now he`s required to attend.

When you start calling attention and going for custody, the children get involved. And the best thing that you could do for children in divorce is to get along, be amicable.

He hasn`t been around. He`s made sure to court photographers. So we see him everywhere. And all of a sudden she`s getting attention and he`s back again.

GRACE: So back to you, Mr. List -- Anthony F. List, attorney for Jon Gosselin. Where would he -- if he had primary custody of the children, where would they live?

LIST: He would -- you know, he`s looking at homes now that would be good homes for them. He intends to remain in the Reading, Pennsylvania area. It`s been his home all of his life. And his father`s home before that.

You know, Nancy, you -- you`ve raised a number of interesting issues, and I think that this matter as a result of your show tonight, frankly, can bring this case to a quick conclusion, but a fair conclusion.

Now that a court has jurisdiction, and with all due respect to Raoul, who mentioned the judge, there was no judge that ever decided any issue. It was an arbitrator. And --

GRACE: But that is an arbitrator that your client agreed to.

LIST: He didn`t know this arbitrator from Santa Claus. He --

GRACE: But you have to agree to the arbitrator you use, isn`t that correct, Raoul?

RAOUL FELDER, DIVORCE ATTORNEY, AUTHOR OF "GETTING AWAY WITH MURDER": Absolutely. And you know, we`re praising him for child support. Apparently, what happened is they didn`t trust him to pay child support, so they insisted part of the equitable distribution be placed in escrow. So it`s being paid out of that --

GRACE: Raoul, you know what? That`s why you are the expert divorce attorney. I`m just an old hack trial attorney in criminal law. You`re right. And the thing about arbitration, you agree to the arbitration methods, the location. Arbitration means you are reaching an agreement.

Weigh in, Alan Ripka.

ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think it`s pretty harsh that anybody would award Kate 100 percent authority when and if Jon can see his eight children anytime. He certainly wasn`t a criminal. He certainly wasn`t a drug addict or did anything so bad that he`d be prevented from fathering his eight children, Nancy.

GRACE: Kessler?


LIST: You know, I rest my case on that.

RANDY KESSLER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The problem with this is that it`s the sour grapes theory. In other words, they`re not saying something has changed so let`s change the situation. They`re saying four months after the divorce was finalized let`s go back and revisit what the divorce did.

To do that you appeal. I don`t like to second-guess lawyers. I`m not involved in this case, Mr. List. But you know, usually, you go back to court when there`s a new set of circumstances. What he`s saying is they didn`t do right the first time, let`s try it again.

You know, you have to stop the litigation and wait until something new happens in most cases.

BROOKS: To Brian Reich --

LIST: If he had -- excuse me. If he had had the benefit of legal counsel who had told him that -- you know, Raoul, you`re assuming that he`s going to become an expert on the rules of arbitration --

GRACE: He did have a lawyer, Anthony.

LIST: I know he did.

GRACE: He had a lawyer.

LIST: Who never said a word to him. Who was shut down by the arbitrator. But he --

GRACE: You know what, Mr. List, you`re blaming everybody but your client. So far you`ve blamed the arbitrator. You`ve blamed Kate. Your client has blamed TLC. You`re blaming his lawyer.

Everybody but him. That`s very difficult to believe, that everybody was at fault except him.

LIST: I have direct evidence that supports everything I`m saying tonight. I have a copy of the transcript of the arbitration proceeding. I`d be happy to provide it to you to take a look at.

GRACE: You know what?

LIST: You`ll be --

GRACE: I`ll take you up on that. I would love to see the record of that arbitration.

LIST: You`ll be astonished, and neither you nor Raoul would have ever stood for a proceeding like that.

FELDER: Well, what about appeals? He didn`t appeal it.

LIST: He did not have a lawyer after that. That was --

FELDER: Well, he certainly could have hired a lawyer at that point.

LIST: He should have probably --

FELDER: He waited four months.

LIST: He should have called you. I doubt that he could have afforded you --

GRACE: OK. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. To Brian Reich, detective, Bergen County Prosecutor`s Office.

Brian Reich, earlier Mr. List -- Anthony F. List out of Philadelphia, attorney for Gosselin -- said that the photos that we are showing are not evidence. But isn`t it true, Mr. Reich, that in court, photos, unless they can be disproved as being tampered with or irrelevant, do come into evidence as admissible evidence?

BRIAN REICH, DEPUTY CHIEF, BERGEN COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Absolutely. Both the criminal and civil use. Especially in criminal use. We commonly use photographs. I mean, the only thing they would do is probably try to verify the veracity and the legitimacy of those photographs, maybe get a certified forensic examiner to show that none of the bits or bytes have been changed and make sure that those photos have not been Photoshoped.

But once that could be proven, that they`re legit photos, they can certainly be entered into evidence.

GRACE: Bark to Marc Malkin, E! Online columnist. Marc, is Jon Gosselin saying that "Dancing with the Stars" is actually damaging the children?

MARK MALKIN, E! ONLINE COLUMNIST: Yes. I mean, he`s sort of claiming that because Kate is training for the show, competing in the show, that she can`t be there for her kids.

From what I am told, I`m told that any minute that she`s not with her kids, that -- you know she is rehearsing or she`s doing the show here in L.A., she`s on the phone with those kids.

Listen, say what you will. I do not think she`s an absentee mom. She -- this happens all the time. People commute to work across the country all the time.

GRACE: To Kelli Zink. Apparently, Jon Gosselin reportedly not only wants primary custody but he wants spousal support.


GRACE: Like alimony.


ZINK: Yes. He wants money from her. And you know, she`s going on this book tour. She`s got a bunch of things in the works. And he wants a piece of that. Maybe to take his girlfriends on more dates. Who knows? But he wants a piece.


JON GOSSELIN: How do you -- how do you afford eight kids? I mean, that`s what we do.

K. GOSSELIN: The most challenging is caring for eight children while dancing with the stars.

J. GOSSELIN: Filming eight hours a day. It`s hardcore. It`s -- that`s ridiculous.




J. GOSSELIN: Kate and I are -- Kate and I come together for our kids. We`ve always been there for them. We know what`s best for them. Please, people, stop interfering in our -- in our lives. We know what`s best.

K. GOSSELIN: There are very good aspects of being a control freak. I am very driven. I don`t -- I don`t stop. Nothing less than the best. Keep moving, keep moving. And I think that`s a great aspect. I enjoy that part of my personality. I persevere. I will not lay down and die.

It`s very difficult to play out front with your kids because they want to ride their bikes in the driveway and know that every moment is being photographed. And you can have one angry face because you`re disciplining a child, and you know, suddenly you`re a monster mom. I mean, that just kills me.


GRACE: That is Kate Gosselin talking on -- to Radaronline. Last night Gosselin survived another round of cuts on the hit TV show "Dancing with the Stars." The morning after, her ex, Jon Gosselin, goes into court and demands primary custody of the children and child support.

We are taking your calls. Out to Walleen, Pennsylvania. Hi, Walleen.


GRACE: Hi, dear.

WALLEEN: Don`t you think that the only reason that Jon is doing this is because he is so jealous of the fact that she is on national television getting all of this attention and the fact that there he is back in Maryland sitting in the dark of his living room and no one is paying any attention to him anymore?

GRACE: Only one correction, Walleen. The dark of his brother`s living room. Yes, Walleen, I think you`re absolutely correct. And I think another factor is in there. He`s not working. She is. Call her an absentee mother. But I guarantee the money that she makes will go to supporting -- I mean, somebody has got to pay for those children.

There`s eight children to support, to feed, to clothe, to plan where they`re going to go to school, what are they going to wear to school? Their school supplies, their doctor`s visits. You name it. It`s on her. To pay for all that.

And Mr. List -- this is Jon Gosselin`s attorney out of Philadelphia. Anthony List. Is he able -- he`s paying $20,000 a month, right? So he`s - -

LIST: $21,000, to be exact. Yes.

GRACE: So he is supporting their livelihood, the children`s livelihood.

LIST: Yes, he is. I mean, that money`s going to run out eventually, but he is supporting the children.

GRACE: Got it. OK. Out to Donna in California. Hi, Donna.

DONNA, CALLER FROM CALIFORNIA: Hi. I don`t know if it would be too late for them to simplify, but it seems to me that nobody ever mentions Kate used to be a registered nurse, and I think they both need to go back to their original professions.

A lot of people raise eight kids on a normal income. You don`t get the bells and whistles. But registered nurses make pretty good money.

GRACE: And registered nurses work night shifts, long hours, probably similar to the hours that she`s working right now.

I`ve got a question. Following up on Donna in California`s accurate observation.

Back to you, Marc Malkin, how often is she away from the children, and who takes care of them when she`s gone?

MALKIN: I mean, of course she has, you know, a nanny helping out. But she`s home most of the time. What she`s doing is she`s flying back and forth. So she`s going back to Pennsylvania and actually rehearsing for "Dancing with the Stars" in her basement.

You know, this has been done time and time again on this show. Then she flies back to L.A. and she performs. Then they have, you know, the elimination show. And then she may come back or not come back.

GRACE: I pass on this bit of advice to Jon Gosselin. The time that I`ve been around him in person, he`s got two gigantic diamond stud earrings as big as dinner plates in his ears. First of all, you can hawk those.

Switching gears, police find two tots, terrified, hungry, thirsty, locked in their father`s Grand Prix while he has partied on a big drunk for 48 hours straight. Take a listen.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was just up at Gypsy`s at Summit Lanes in Vandercook.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And there was a Pontiac Grand Prix. It was green. Sitting there right outside of Gypsy`s with two toddlers in the back seat while their mom was inside at the bar.

UNIDENTIFIED 911 OPERATOR: OK. What part of the parking lot was it in?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was right outside of Gypsy`s. I have the license plate number.


GRACE: To John Stockwell, reporter, WJR News Talk 760 Detroit. What happened, John?

JOHN STOCKWELL, REPORTER, WJR NEWS/TALK 760: Well, Nancy, good evening. What happened is the two children, they were aged 4 and 6, two boys, were actually on a routine visitation with their father, Richard Labo, and the kids are telling police that their father kept them locked in the car while he went out and partied and drank for two straight days.

GRACE: Hmm. And to Lieutenant Brad Piros, Jackson County Sheriff`s Department, the children were locked in the Grand Prix for 48 straight?

LT. BRAD PIROS, JACKSON COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Not for 48 straight. What we were able to confirm through the investigation was that they were actually locked in the vehicle while their father was in the bar for a period of about a half hour to 45 minutes.

We`re still working with the prosecutor`s office to confirm whether or not -- or what transpired during that 48-hour period.

GRACE: To Dr. Keri Peterson, assuming our reports are correct that they were in the car for 48 hours straight, and survived off candy, what does that do to a child?

DR. KERI PETERSON, M.D., INTERNAL MEDICINE, LENOX HILL HOSPITAL: When you`re eating just candy for two days, of course your blood sugar may be a little low. You`re obviously hungry, But my bigger concern is their access to water.

These little guys for two days with no access to water can become severely dehydrated. And a child really can only go three to four days without water.

GRACE: Dr. Keri Peterson, internal medicine, Lenox Hill Hospital, in New York.

As we go to break, happy birthday, Martha Heller, 70-plus, recently graduated Harvard. I met her my first year of law school. Her son Frank was my study partner.

Martha Heller, happy birthday, friend.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was devastated. I was shocked. I want to see him get help. He obviously needs help because no one in their right mind should do that. I don`t know how they could do that.


GRACE: Straight out to Marc Klass, president of KlaasKids Foundation. The children stated they were in the car 48 hours. That`s where we got that information. Go ahead.

MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, yes, that information, as I understand it, is probably true. And I think what we have to understand is that little children need sober adult supervision. They don`t need to be locked in a car while their drunken father engages in a drinking binge bar hopping.

They are subject not only to the normal victimizations of drunk driving, but they can be kidnapped, they can be carjacked, they can hit by another car. The victimizations are just absolutely unbelievable. This is intolerable behavior by this man.

GRACE: You know what I thought about when I heard about this, Marc Klaas. I`m about to go to Brad Lamm. Don`t go anywhere, Brad.

Remember the little boys that we covered, I believe, it was last fall and winter that went missing? There were a series of them? And a couple of them were found alive. But leaving two tots in a car while you`re in the bar at a bowling alley.

By the way, Marc, he still had on his bowling shoes when he showed up in court, he was that drunk.

They could have been taken like that, and nobody would have ever known what happened to them.


GRACE: And what about it, Brad Lamm? Certified interventionist at Help me out, Brad. Because I can`t understand it. And don`t start telling me when you`re an alcoholic or you drink too much --


GRACE: -- you don`t know what you`re doing.

LAMM: I`m not the guy that`s going to back this guy up. He`s definitely a knucklehead. But look, people that are addicted do all sorts of crazy things. And --

GRACE: Blah-blah.

LAMM: The bar to become a parent is pretty low. So I guess the question that I think of tonight, Nancy, is to all of your viewers what will you do when someone you love puts your children at risk? Decide now before you get in the situation.

GRACE: Caryn Stark?

STARK: Yes, Nancy?

GRACE: What do you think?

STARK: I think that this is a father who should never be allowed to be father. It`s just unacceptable, and I`m not sure being in jail will help him because there`s no way to be able to rehabilitate him. He really needs other help.

GRACE: Randy Kessler?

KESSLER: I think there`s so many men out there that would love to have time with their children, and for this guy to squander an opportunity to be with his children is wrong.

GRACE: You`re so right, Randy. Ripka?

RIPKA: Silly mistake over an illness, and he should -- his parental rights should be taken a way? That`s ridiculous.

GRACE: You know, Alan Ripka, Randy Kessler, this is a case I`d like to see land on your table to defend.

Everyone, let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Cameron Payne, 22, Corona, California, killed Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Infantry Badge. Zest for life, loved telling jokes, video games, dreamed of living in the Pacific Northwest.

Leaves behind mother Denise, brother Cody, widow and high school sweetheart, Julie, daughters Analiz and Kylie, named after his close friend. That friend now says he`ll name his first born Cameron.

Cameron Payne, American hero.

Thanks to our guest but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from Georgia friend, Kaye. Isn`t she beautiful?

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern, and until then, good night friend.