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Did `Hanna Montana` Destroy Cyrus Family?; In Vitro Mix-up Nightmare; Interview With Julianne Moore

Aired February 15, 2011 - 22:00:00   ET


JOY BEHAR, HOST: Hey remember those 33 Chilean miners who were trapped underground for 69 days? Well, it turns out that while they were stuck, they were being sent drugs and porn. Look, don`t get me wrong, I`m not saying they weren`t brave, but the entire time they were down there, they had food, TV, and drugs. That`s not a cave, that`s assisted living.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, did "Hannah Montana" destroy Miley Cyrus and her family? Dad Billy Ray thinks so, and now he says Miley`s in danger. But at age 18, is the warning too little, too late from dad?

Then, Madonna gives Lady Gaga the stamp of approval for her new song. But Joy wants to know, is the Material Girl passing the torch to a Madonna retread?

Plus ageless actress Julianne Moore talks about cleaning up our schools and staying sexy without plastic surgery.

That and more starting right now.

BEHAR: Miley Cyrus shot to fame in "Hannah Montana", but her famous father, Billy Ray Cyrus, doesn`t necessarily think that was a good thing. In fact, he thinks the exact opposite. He told GQ magazine, quote, "The damn show destroyed my family. I hate to say it, I`d erase it all in a second if I could," unquote.

So is this a case of parental remorse? Here to discuss it, Dr. Drew Pinsky, addiction medicine specialist and host of the "Dr. Drew Show" coming to HLN right here nightly this spring; Sonja Norwood, mother and former manager of singers Brandy and Ray J; and Eve Plumb, who grew up before our eyes as Jan in "The Brady Bunch" and she`s now starting off Broadway in "Miss Abigail`s Guide to Dating, Mating and Marriage".

Ok. Welcome you guys to the show.

Dr. Drew, let me start with you. He`s blaming the show for destroying his family. Is that fair?

DR. DREW PINSKY, HLN HOST, "DR. DREW SHOW": It`s fair to make an association between having made the choice to put his child in that show and things unraveling. I think what he misses is that it was his role, his multiple roles that really served to cause much of the problem, I`m afraid.

And let`s be clear here. This poor man is talking about how he`s suffering because of what`s happening to his child. We shouldn`t be taking pot shots at Billy Ray Cyrus --


PINSKY: But the reality is that he served -- for a child growing up, it`s very hard for them to have multiple functions if somebody is trying to be a parent. In other words, you can`t be the parent and the friend. You can`t be the parent, the friend, and the co-star. That is very confusing. That creates boundary problems for a child. And therein lays the core of one of the problems that Miley seems to be manifesting now.

BEHAR: That`s interesting. I think you`re right. But, you know, he also blames himself. Because he told GQ, he said, "I should have been a better parent. I should have said, `enough is enough, it`s getting dangerous and somebody`s going to get hurt`. I should have, but I didn`t."

I mean, you have to feel for the guy. He is beating himself up now. You know -- Drew?

PINSKY: Oh, I absolutely agree. And I`ve met the man; he`s the sweetest, nicest man you ever want to meet. But I don`t think he really understood how he had adulterated his parenting function when he was doing all this. And he is such a nice guy, he probably had difficulties stepping up and asserting himself when he really needed to, and now there`s a problem.

BEHAR: Right.

You know, Eve, you were a child actress.

EVE PLUMB, "THE BRADY BUNCH": Yes, definitely.

BEHAR: Do you feel sorry for him? What is your take on his response?

PLUMB: It`s -- is it a little too much, a little too late? Or is he going to now become the stricter parent and set a line and retract the photos or change the show? What is he going to change now that he`s got remorse?

BEHAR: That`s a good question. Drew, is it too late to put the boundaries up, like you said, and separate the roles?

PINSKY: Well, I mean, you know, the question is, really, is there something diagnosable going on right now with poor Miley, or is this just sort of a phase she`s going through? In either case, here`s the deal, if she`s got a diagnosable problem, they need to get her treatment. But in either case, having a father who is serving the function of father only will only help her, can only be helpful.

BEHAR: That`s right.

Now, Sonja, you`re the mother of two celebrities, so what is your take on this? I mean you`ve been in his position, so what do you think about all this?

SONJA NORWOOD, MOTHER OF BRANDY AND RAY J: Well, Joy, actually, I can understand where he`s coming from as a parent. You know a lot of us as parents go back and think about all of the things that we could have done differently when we raised our kids, especially if they`re doing something that we don`t necessarily agree to.

But I also understand him as a parent and as a part of her life that he can blame himself for that, but honestly, I don`t believe that it`s his fault, and neither do I blame -- I would say that I would blame anybody for that. I truly believe it`s a phase that she`s going through because she is a teenager and we -- all of our teenagers explore and experiment. I don`t think that he should blame himself for that.

BEHAR: All right. Well, you know what, you say she`s going through a phase, but let`s just look at this tape where she took a bong hit of salvia in December. Watch the video from TMZ.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold it. Hold it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re going to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) brick when you see this. Oh, yes.


BEHAR: Ok. Drew --

PINSKY: Yes, Joy, reminds me of the last time you and I got high on salvia. It was very much the experience we shared.

BEHAR: You know, Cyrus -- Billy Ray Cyrus says that his family is under attack by Satan. Do you think the girl needs redemption or rehab? And did Satan supply the bong, is what I want to know.

PINSKY: I`m sure he was manning the local head shop. There was no doubt that Satan was sitting right there behind the counter. But, yes, I mean certainly a spiritual life could be helpful. So I don`t really want to say that redemption`s not a good idea. I don`t want to say that what I`m looking at is necessarily addiction. So I don`t know that for sure -- all I see is drug abuse. That doesn`t necessarily mean addiction.

But we see a kid who is unraveling. And boy, if this were my family, I would get mental health services involved immediately.

BEHAR: You would be scared for them?

PINSKY: I would be very scared and I would try to do my job as a parent, but I would know that that would not be enough. This is more than just a parent --

BEHAR: I think he is scared. In fact, he says he worries that she`s going to turn into, you know, into a Kurt Cobain, Michael Jackson thing. Do you think he`s just a little bit too nervous about something like that? Because they really did go over the edge.

PLUMB: Without having been a teen star.

BEHAR: Yes, yes.

PLUMB: And lots of people do these things without being in television. Television and being a performer is not the cause of this. You know, I was on TV for a long time, still am --

BEHAR: And you never took any drugs?

PLUMB: I -- didn`t say that, but there wasn`t somebody watching me with a thing, you know. She and these people that are that famous have to know, don`t do that and let somebody film you.

BEHAR: Sonja, yes, go ahead.

NORWOOD: Yes. I was going to say, I guess I have a different perspective because when my daughter was 15, Brandy, she also had a show, her own show, and you know, when you`re going to the set every day and you`re confined to policy and regulations and, you know, scripting and this sort of thing, you really don`t have an opportunity to be an adolescent.

Your body really doesn`t know that you`re going through biological changes, even though you`re making transitions from puberty to adolescence to young adulthood to an adult. So your body doesn`t realize that. And you want to be young.

I just believe that sometimes the judgment that we place on our celebrities, young people, is something that we should look at ourselves at being at fault for.

BEHAR: Well, you know, Cyrus blamed the managers, also, for interfering in the relationship with the girl. And Sonja, you managed Brandy and your son.


BEHAR: How much do you blame the managers -- how much blame should the managers take? And if he blames the managers, why didn`t he fire the managers?

NORWOOD: Absolutely. And you know what, Joy, that`s a very good point. The difference between Billy and myself, I managed my kids directly. But there are people in the business who have since managing my kids, have gone to them and said, you know what, your mom is this and she`s that and she shouldn`t be managing you because, you know, she`s going to ruin your career.

And what happens is, they do get into the ears of our young people and say, you know what, you can`t make it unless you get rid of your parents. But what -- to me, my thing was, at the end of the day, I wanted my family. And I fought my own kids to save themselves from certain situations that other people wanted to put them through.

BEHAR: Right.

Well, Dr. Drew, is it too late for Billy Ray Cyrus to save his family? Or can he --

PINSKY: No -- well, I don`t know about his relationship -- I don`t know about his relationship with his wife. That may or may not be salvageable, but clearly mental -- you know, good professional services could be of great use to him here.

But one last comment about the managers and agents. When you look at what`s going on, they do have a role to play here. I mean Sonja`s role was effective as a manager because she put her parenting function ahead of the management function.

If you look at say, Charlie Sheen`s people, his employers are somewhat helpless because the people around him are protecting Charlie`s point of view which is pathological. So it really -- that function really has a lot to do with how people end up where they are.

And for all we know, there may be people interfering with Billy Ray`s ability to intervene on his daughter.

BEHAR: Ok. Thanks very much you guys.

Eve, you turned out pretty well, I think.

PLUMB: I know.

BEHAR: No matter how much drug abuse there was. I`m teasing you.

Who hasn`t popped a joint once in their lives, you know? You have, right?

PLUMB: Well, I`m just saying nobody saw me whether or not I did.

BEHAR: Ok. And you can see Sonja Norwood on "Brandy and Ray J: A Family Business" Sunday nights on VH-1.

And Dr. Drew`s nightly show is coming to HLN this spring.

We`ll be right back.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Lady Gaga says her undeniably Madonna-sounding new song was approved by the Material Girl herself.

Then actress Julianne Moore is here.

Now back to Joy.

BEHAR: Carolyn and Sean Savage had been trying to expand their family for years. By the time they went in for their last try at in vitro fertilization they had high hopes, so they never expected the news they got. Carolyn was pregnant with someone else`s baby.

The Savages have written a book called "Inconceivable", which details their remarkable story. Carolyn and Sean Savage, welcome to the show, you guys.


CAROLYN SAVAGE, AUTHOR, "INCONCEIVABLE": Well, thank you so much for having us.


BEHAR: So tell me -- either one of you. Tell me how you found out that you were carrying this other couple`s embryo.

S. SAVAGE: I received a call while in my office from the fertility doctor. It was the same day that Carolyn had her pregnancy test.

So he told me simultaneously that she was pregnant, but a huge mistake was made and they had transferred the wrong embryos. It was shocking and I got out of the office, drove home, and wanted to tell her in person, because it was just -- it was --


BEHAR: And what was your reaction when he told you?

C. SAVAGE: I thought he was kidding.

BEHAR: You thought he was kidding?

C. SAVAGE: Well, he came through the door and I didn`t even expect him to be home. And he said he had really bad news. And I immediately thought something had -- I -- I -- I thought something had happened to one of my kids.

But then he said, you`re pregnant, they transferred the wrong embryos. And I had absolutely no reference point for that. I was -- I didn`t even think that that could happen. So I think there was a lot of shock in the moment. So --

BEHAR: Yes, yes. God, it`s a -- it`s something to hear that kind of news, I think. My God.

C. SAVAGE: It is. And you never really know how you`re going to react when you get bad news like that. But I can tell you that in those moments, I -- I pretty much felt like -- the -- oxygen had kind of been sucked out of my lungs. And it was not -- I was not graceful in those moments. It was --


BEHAR: You were not graceful?

C. SAVAGE: Uh, no. No. It was pretty ugly.

BEHAR: Once you realized that it was true -- did you think of terminating the pregnancy?


BEHAR: You did not?


BEHAR: You never had that thought?

C. SAVAGE: No, the doctor actually called and I spoke with him about an hour later and he recommended termination. He actually laid out my options, that one was -- was a recommended option.

Sean and I are -- are the parents of three kids and we have a 16-year- old, a 13-year-old, and an almost 3-year-old. And we love kids.



C. SAVAGE: I`m a teacher. I`m a former principal of an elementary school. Sean is a -- an avid coach. We -- it`s somebody`s -- somebody`s child.


BEHAR: Somebody`s baby.

C. SAVAGE: Just the way you would stop and help somebody`s child who was hurt, in danger; we would never take away somebody else`s baby.

BEHAR: How far -- how many months were you -- or how many weeks?

C. SAVAGE: Oh, I mean, I was barely pregnant.

BEHAR: Barely pregnant.

C. SAVAGE: Barely pregnant, I mean, two weeks --


S. SAVAGE: Two weeks.

C. SAVAGE: -- it was ten weeks -- ten days past the transfer, so --


BEHAR: So you really did have a -- had a chance to --


C. SAVAGE: Absolutely, I mean --

BEHAR: -- if you wanted to get an abortion, but you didn`t.




BEHAR: And -- I mean, you would have had -- they would have had to tell the -- the other parents whose embryo --



BEHAR: -- you were carrying that you were going to terminate it, I think, right?

C. SAVAGE: Yes, no and that would have been terrible news to receive.

BEHAR: They -- they might not have had another embryo.

C. SAVAGE: Correct.


C. SAVAGE: We didn`t know who they were --

BEHAR: So you were --

C. SAVAGE: And yes, we didn`t know what their situation was, so we didn`t know -- we didn`t want to take this opportunity away from them.


Now -- now, you decided to carry the baby and hand him over after the delivery, to the genetic parents.


BEHAR: Ok. You -- when you -- when -- did you decide that right away? That you were just going to hand him over, or did you think, maybe I`ll just keep this baby. You didn`t tell them right away, right?

C. SAVAGE: Right away we decided that -- we kind of inverted the situation and put ourselves in their shoes. Had someone else been pregnant with our embryo, the genetic sibling of one of our kids --



C. SAVAGE: -- we would have been expected to raise that child. So right away, we just knew that if they wanted the baby, we -- we would never engage in a -- in a custody battle with them.

BEHAR: But you would have kept the baby?

C. SAVAGE: In a heartbeat.


S. SAVAGE: Oh, sure.

BEHAR: Sure.

Ok, now, Shannon and Paul Morrell, their embryos were implanted in you, and they were on the show last year.

C. SAVAGE: They were?

BEHAR: On this show, yes.


BEHAR: So let`s take a look at that.


SHANNON MORRELL: I put myself in her shoes, can you imagine?

BEHAR: Yes, that would be rough in her -- worse in her shoes, I think than yours, right?

PAUL MORRELL: Yes. Right and devastating, yes.

S. MORRELL: And that`s for us, it was hard. We didn`t know who they were for two and a half months. That drove us nuts. It really did.

BEHAR: You didn`t know who was carrying?

S. MORRELL: Didn`t -- who they were? Where they lived.

BEHAR: Why not?

S. MORRELL: They didn`t want to tell us. So through lawyers we got medical updates, thank goodness.


BEHAR: Why did you not want to have any contact with them in the beginning?

S. SAVAGE: Well, I think, initially, we`ve had very difficult pregnancies, a number of miscarriages.

BEHAR: Oh, you have?


S. SAVAGE: And so it was very touch and go for weeks upon weeks. And so until we knew that the pregnancy was truly viable, we thought the best thing to do was to communicate with them, give them medical updates of -- of the progress, but the more that they would have learned about Carolyn`s medical situation, I think it would have absolutely concerned them and put them into much more fear early on than -- that -- what was necessary.

BEHAR: Right. Ok so, now, when you met them, you were three months pregnant.


BEHAR: Right?


BEHAR: Tell me about how that went down about -- how that went down?

C. SAVAGE: You know, it was -- it was a moment that you never, obviously, think that you have to go through. We planned very carefully through this process. And that was one of the instances that we can`t -- we did plan.

We actually had a script, an outline. I was so afraid -- that was another reason I didn`t want them to know. I was an emotional wreck. And I just thought, exposing them to our sadness and our fear would just make it worse for them.

So what I wanted to do in that first meeting was be very planned with our comments and -- and try to make it as comfortable as we could for them. And --

S. SAVAGE: I felt like we were that fragile piece of glass --



S. SAVAGE: -- and they didn`t want to tip it over. I mean, they are -- they were very nervous, we are -- we were pretty -- pretty nervous, but every -- it was a meeting that was surreal. I mean, it was two families coming together by --


BEHAR: That`s sad.

S. SAVAGE: -- by an incredible --

BEHAR: This is a really unbelievable story. I want to hear more about it in a minute, ok.


BEHAR: So stay there. We`ll be right back with more of this story.


BEHAR: I`m back with Carolyn and Sean Savage, the authors of "Inconceivable".

Now in 2009, September of 2009, you delivered this healthy baby boy, Logan.

C. SAVAGE: I did.

BEHAR: So I know this is hard to talk about, I think.

C. SAVAGE: It is.

BEHAR: That must have been a very difficult day for you, when you had to take that baby, which you carried -- I mean, you`d make a very strong -- I have a child, a daughter, you make a strong attachment to that child you`re carrying. So how was that --

C. SAVAGE: First of all, during the pregnancy, at first I thought, well, ok, I`m a gestational carrier. Wasn`t something I agreed to, maybe I can detach. It was not possible.

So we wanted to really honor his entry into the world the way we honored the other three kids that we had. His childbirth was a miracle. The minute he took his first breath was probably one of the most thrilling moments of our lives.

And I had a C-section, so about 10, 15 minutes after he was born, Sean took him down to the Morells where they were waiting.

S. SAVAGE: It was incredibly difficult to hand him over to be raised, but at the same time, it was a miracle of childbirth. So this process and this entire process has been exceptionally challenging. It`s challenged -- I mean, our marriage has -- it`s been tough.

BEHAR: You`ve had a tough time with the marriage?

C. SAVAGE: Yes, yes.

BEHAR: It had its tolls.

C. SAVAGE: It does.

S. SAVAGE: And that`s why we want to tell this -- I mean we want to tell the story. It`s a very unique story, but it has a lot of common ground with other people that are having challenges, difficulties. I think they`re going to be able to pull a lot out of this that`s going to help them. I really do.

BEHAR: Well, I think a lot of people are doing IVF and a lot of these new procedures are going on and all sorts of accidents and mistakes can be made. So people need to be vigilant.

C. SAVAGE: Right. Right.

S. SAVAGE: And part of our legal settlement was to provide all those details in the book of what happened, how it was discovered, so that it`s a cautionary tale to IVF patients.

BEHAR: Right. I don`t have too much time left, but I just would like to know, how is your relationship with the other couple and how is your relationship with the baby, with Logan? What is it like?

C. SAVAGE: We have seen Logan -- yes, we have seen him twice, and we get e-mails and photos and it`s friendly.

BEHAR: When you see the baby, do you feel like, hey, that`s my baby.


BEHAR: You don`t?

C. SAVAGE: No. No. He`ll always be my baby, but he`s their son.

BEHAR: He`s their baby.

C. SAVAGE: He`s their son.

S. SAVAGE: But we have unconditional love for him.

BEHAR: So he`ll be in your life or you`ll be in his life for the rest of his life? For the rest of your life?

C. SAVAGE: I will think about him probably until I take my last breath.

BEHAR: How about your other children? How do they see him?

C. SAVAGE: I think -- you know, they`ve handled this fairly well and they see him as a little boy that we get a chance to play with here and there.

BEHAR: I guess it`s a little confusing for them also.

S. SAVAGE: It is. It`s been a challenge but we`ve tried to handle our household in a way that it was as least disruptive as possible. So we think the way that parents handle a crisis, the kids feed off of that. I think that`s another lesson in this process that we learned.

BEHAR: I see. Now, you`re going to -- there`s a movie, I heard, that they might be making, a Lifetime movie about this story?



BEHAR: Who`s playing you, Meryl Streep, I see her.

C. SAVAGE: I`m going to play me and George Clooney is going to play Sean.

BEHAR: Brilliant casting.

C. SAVAGE: I know. I thought so.

BEHAR: And what about the Morells. Who`s going to play them?

C. SAVAGE: I have no idea.

S. SAVAGE: Nobody knows -- we don`t know.

BEHAR: Are you friendly toward them, or do you feel -- I have to ask this question, do you feel a little bit of anger towards them at all?


BEHAR: Nothing?


BEHAR: You don`t feel any kind of negative feeling --

C. SAVAGE: They`re not responsible for this at all.

BEHAR: No. I know that. But it`s not rational what I`m asking.

C. SAVAGE: We had irrational moments during the pregnancy, I admit to that in the book. I think it`s impossible to navigate this without irrational moments. But they are not responsible for this. They have respected us and we have respected them.

And I think, you know, it`s just a pretty good lesson of four really good people, two really good families coming together and doing the right thing.

BEHAR: Well, it`s an interesting story and I feel, you know, you did a great job with the book. You`ve gotten through it. You`re still married.

S. SAVAGE: Thank you.

BEHAR: Are you going to have any more children?

S. SAVAGE: We still have hope, you know. And we`d welcome anymore, but we love our three.

BEHAR: Of course.

S. SAVAGE: And certainly, anybody that wants more information also goes to, it`s a great resource for folks.

BEHAR: Very good. Ok. Thank you very much for joining me.

S. SAVAGE: Thank you.

BEHAR: The book is called "Inconceivable".

We`ll be right back.

A.J. HAMMER, HLN HOST, "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT": Tonight on "SHOWBIZ TONIGHT", Mad Over Miley -- Billy Ray Cyrus` explosive new interview; why he says "Hannah Montana" tore their family apart. 11:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific.


BEHAR: Well, Lady Gaga is being criticized for ripping off Madonna`s "Express Yourself." Is Lady Gaga stealing from Madonna? And if she is, does Madonna care?

Here to talk about that and other news du jour is actor Carlos Leon, who knows Madonna very well -- we`ll get to that in a minute. Jessica Coen, editor in chief of And comedian Chuck Nice.

Welcome to the show, you guys.


BEHAR: Let us look at Lady Gaga on the "Tonight Show." She`s defending herself against attacks from the media that she ripped off Madonna. Watch.


LADY GAGA: There is really no one that is a more adoring and loving Madonna fan than me. I am the hugest fan, personally and professionally.

And, well, the good news is that I got an e-mail from her people and her, sending me their love and complete support on behalf of the single. And if the queen says it shall be, then it shall be.


BEHAR: She looks like she just stepped out of a crypt.



BEHAR: Carlos, wait, before I get to you, Chuck, I mean you and the queen, Madonna, were an item. In fact, you have a child, Lourdes. Now, you know Madonna. Lourdes looks like you a little bit.


BEHAR: So we know it really was you.


LEON: Definitely me.

BEHAR: She looks a lot like you.

LEON: Thanks.

BEHAR: Do you think that Madonna cares or -- and what do you consider? Did you see it?

LEON: I did.

BEHAR: Do you think it`s a ripoff or an homage?

LEON: I think it`s a -- you know, I mean, she`s so much inspired by Madonna that, you know, I think she takes bits and pieces of her. I don`t think it`s a ripoff. She`s such a big fan, you know.

BEHAR: I think it`s a compliment.

LEON: Yes, exactly.

COEN: Yes, I do too.

NICE: I mean, she said, and she said, look, it took me 10 minutes to write that song. And I`m like, that makes sense, because Madonna wrote it first. So it should only take 10 minutes.


COEN: Well, her entire career is an homage to Madonna, really.

BEHAR: In a way, yes.

COEN: I mean, what Madonna did 20 years ago and groundbreaking in that way, that is what Lady Gaga does now.

BEHAR: Yes, that`s true. And she`s a performance artist and a singer, et cetera. But she`s getting a lot of criticism from all ends right now. The gays are mad at her, not all of them, not GLAAD and not the really big gay organizations, but just spotty people here and there. Andy Cohen (ph), I heard, was not amused by her song.

NICE: Andy Cohen (ph) said something about it.

BEHAR: They say that the song "Born This Way" is a fake gay anthem and that it`s pandering. Do you agree with that?

NICE: Well, listen, speaking for all gay men everywhere, which I feel as though I can do.

BEHAR: Are you gay?

NICE: I am definitely gay.

BEHAR: Oh, you are.

NICE: I just don`t sleep with women, but I am definitely gay. I`m serious.

BEHAR: You are gay?

NICE: no, I`m not -- I don`t sleep with women, but I feel like I`m gay.

BEHAR: What do you mean you don`t sleep with women?

NICE: I mean, I do sleep with women, I don`t sleep with men.

BEHAR: Oh, you see, that makes sense.

NICE: Did I say it backwards?


NICE: Well, then maybe I`m more gay than I think!


NICE: Oh my God, I just came out on the Joy Behar show! And I didn`t even want to!


BEHAR: All right, let`s just straighten -- straighten the record out.

NICE: Yes. I was making a joke. I`m straight, but--

BEHAR: You`re a straight guy.

NICE: -- a lot of people ask me if I`m gay, and now it makes sense.


NICE: But, seriously, here`s the way I feel. How is it that you can say gay people -- they`re not a monolith. She`s loved by a particular group of people, and, you know, I`m sure that -- so two guys don`t like her and they`re gay. That doesn`t mean all gay men are now off of --

BEHAR: But it`s not that they don`t like her, Chuck, it`s that they think the song is lame.

COEN: It is lame.

NICE: I am going to --

COEN: It`s totally lame. It`s simple. And we`re just sitting here talking about how it`s a Madonna rip-off, not that Madonna`s music is lame, it`s absolutely not, fantastic. But to not kind of be creative and do something groundbreaking in your own way is lame. And that was what Lady Gaga was about, and the art came first. And the championing for gay rights, that came second. And now the art`s coming second, because the art`s not as good.

BEHAR: I see. Oh, that`s interesting. You know who else is mad at Lady Gaga?

NICE: Who?

BEHAR: The Latinos are mad at her.

NICE: Well, Carlos, you`ve got it on all ends.

LEON: I know, I know.

BEHAR: And she says the Latinos are objecting to the use of the word chola in her song.

LEON: Wow.

BEHAR: Don`t be a drag, just be a queen, whether you`re broke or evergreen. You`re black, white, beige, chola descent, you`re Lebanese, you`re Orient. Oh. She doesn`t say--

COEN: That was good.

BEHAR: Thank you.


COEN: Now, are you offended by that?

LEON: Not at all.

BEHAR: What is -- what is chola?

LEON: I think -- a chola is -- you know, it`s more of a California/Mexican kind of thing. It`s more of kind of like a girl from the streets that`s like your homey, pretty much.


LEON: That`s Mexican. Like a New Yorican, or a boriqua (ph), if you want.

BEHAR: But it`s not a slut?

LEON: It`s not a slut. No.

BEHAR: No. So then why would the Latinos be mad about this?

LEON: Because it`s, you know, it`s--

NICE: Because it`s our word.

LEON: It`s a word that--

BEHAR: Our word--

COEN: An incredibly pale blond woman using the word.

LEON: Exactly.


LEON: And that`s probably why they would get upset.

BEHAR: Oh, I see.

And she came out in an egg, do you think the vegans are upset with her?


LEON: I`m pretty sure they are.


BEHAR: Lacto-ovarians, what are those people, anyway? OK, here`s another story, Paris Hilton, do you remember her? OK. She has a new reality show, and she says in this show, you`re going to see the real Paris Hilton. Wouldn`t it be great if the real Paris Hilton turned out to be Snooki?


BEHAR: I mean, who is the real Paris Hilton? What do you think is going to come out of this?

NICE: I don`t know, but if it`s the real Paris Hilton, I can only expect it to be even more shallow and vapid, as far as I`m concerned. I don`t see how a person who has done what Paris has done can say that it`s like, I want my fans to see the real me. I want them to see my insides. And it`s like, too late, we saw the sex tape.

BEHAR: Exactly. We know what the real Paris Hilton looks like. I mean, I`ve never been a big fan, but she`s been on "The View" a few times, and she`s kind of a nice kid, I guess.

COEN: I mean -- well, she`s not a kid anymore. It`s her 30th birthday today.


COEN: You know, a milestone.

BEHAR: Oh, today`s her birthday?

COEN: Yes.

BEHAR: Happy birthday, Paris.


COEN: But her show is supposed to just kind of follow her around, and do we really need to see what she does all day? She drives her car and carries her dogs places and goes to openings of clubs.

BEHAR: Do you think she would be such a big star if she didn`t do time in prison or do that sex tape?

COEN: It certainly helped her career. The sex tape --

LEON: A little controversy helps.

BEHAR: It helps, right?

LEON: Sure, why not?

BEHAR: But is she going anywhere now? She might have jumped the shark at 30.

NICE: Well, yes, when you think about it, I mean, where is there for her to go? I think controversy helps when you have something to back it up with. When you have got some kind of talent that you can bring to the table.

COEN: Right.

BEHAR: Where`s the talent?

NICE: We know where the talent is. You know what I mean? We saw it on the sex tape! That`s the -- and you know what, it wasn`t even that good.


NICE: The talent wasn`t even that good. How are you going to be on the sex tape and you`re moving somebody out of the way to see yourself?


BEHAR: Oh, that doesn`t work?

Now, in a recent survey, she came in second after Snooki, the aforementioned, as someone least likely to be fun on a date. That no one wants to date her. She`s -- Snooki was No. 1 and then Paris was No. 2. Isn`t that interesting?

COEN: I would think Snooki would be a great time.

BEHAR: No, they didn`t think so.


BEHAR: Why wouldn`t men want to go on a date with Paris? They saw the sex tape.

NICE: That is -- would make sense.

BEHAR: What is it about her that turns you off or on?

LEON: On, let`s see, she`s blond. No. Off, I would say just the whole Paris Hilton and who she is --

BEHAR: You like that?

LEON: No, I don`t.

BEHAR: You don`t like it.

LEON: I don`t like that.

BEHAR: Do you only go out with blonds?

LEON: I try -- I don`t discriminate, but blonds have been coming into my life.


BEHAR: Where did you meet Madonna? I`ll talk to you about this another time.


BEHAR: OK, now here`s another story. Remember the Chilean miners? We were all upset they were down in the hole all these days. Well, people up on the top there were sending them marijuana and porn. Did you know that?

LEON: I didn`t know that.

BEHAR: Did -- why did they come up? I mean, it`s like, why -- I mean, why did they come up?

LEON: Why the marijuana?

BEHAR: Why the marijuana? Well, I would think that that would make their lives a lot more easier, don`t you, Chuck?

NICE: I think it would make things mentally a lot easier, but from what I understand, they only had like two spoonfuls of tuna a day that they could eat or something like that.

BEHAR: And it gives you the munchies, so that was cruel in a way.

NICE: That`s to me, you`re torturing me. You know?

LEON: And then to bring in the porn -- I mean--

COEN: And the paranoia too.

BEHAR: Yes, but you know, they did -- this is so awful to say this, but it`s true. They did discuss cannibalism. Do you think that marijuana was causing them to be hungry to that extent?

NICE: All I can tell you is this, if you give me two spoonfuls of tuna and then we smoke a blunt, somebody`s getting eaten.


BEHAR: OK, the other thing that -- listen to this. The people up on top again, they were offering blow-up dolls, that they would send blow-up dolls down there, but there were 33 guys down there and they only had ten blow-up dolls, so they decided not to send it to them.

NICE: Well, that makes sense!


NICE: Because there`s not enough women. You can`t have men compete for women. Even fake women will screw up a situation where you`ve got a bunch of guys vying for the same fake woman. Because one dude is just going to be like, he`s just using you. I love you!


BEHAR: He doesn`t really love you, I love you!


BEHAR: Where`s the ring?


BEHAR: OK, thank you, guys, very much, for joining me tonight.

LEON: Thank you.

BEHAR: You can see Carlos Leon in "Immigration Tango" in theaters Friday. Back in a minute with the beautiful Julianne Moore.


BEHAR: We all know Julianne Moore is an Oscar-nominated, Emmy award- winning actress, but who knew that she liked to clean? If I knew that, I`d have given her Tuesdays at my house for a little light dusting. She`s currently partnered with Bounty to help clean America`s schools. And she`s one of my favorites. And here she is. Julianne, I`m so happy to have you here, my dear.

JULIANNE MOORE, ACTRESS: Thank you, I`m so happy to be here.

BEHAR: I`ve seen you on "The View" a few times, and you are always such a delightful person. I said I must have her.

MOORE: Thank you.

BEHAR: On my show. And also thrilled that you are -- are you an ambassador for redheads or something?

MOORE: It feels like it, doesn`t it?

BEHAR: Yes. Yes.

MOORE: There aren`t so many of us. We have to stick together and acknowledge each other. That`s what I say.

BEHAR: I know you`re a natural redhead because I saw "Short Cuts."

MOORE: Oh, God, Joy!


MOORE: Oh my God!

BEHAR: Should we take that out?



BEHAR: But I am a natural. Would you believe me if I said I`m a natural?

MOORE: I do believe you.

BEHAR: Don`t believe it.

MOORE: I believe everything everybody tells me.

BEHAR: It`s a lie.


BEHAR: I`m a dark-haired Italian American. Black hair.


BEHAR: But yeah, we went for this. And you did the book, "Freckleface Strawberry," which is a children`s book, a delightful children`s book.

MOORE: Thank you.

BEHAR: And it is now becoming a musical, I hear.

MOORE: Well, yeah, it actually has been -- it opened in September, it has been running since then. And it`s really adorable. It`s based on that book, and then I wrote another book called "Freckleface Strawberry and the Dodgeball Bully," and so they optioned it and put the musical on, and it`s been a really successful run.

BEHAR: That`s great. I mean, you have children.

MOORE: Yes, I do.

BEHAR: How many are we talking about?

MOORE: I have two, an 8-year-old and a 13-year-old.

BEHAR: What are their names?

MOORE: Cal and Liv. Yeah.

BEHAR: That`s nice.

MOORE: And they`re little -- you know, they`ve grown out of the demographic for the book, but they are still -- but you know, it`s still a nice thing for them, I think.

BEHAR: Yeah. But you have a fantastic career.

MOORE: Thank you.

BEHAR: I think. Do you tell your age?


BEHAR: You do?

MOORE: Yes. I mean, it`s all over the Internet, you can`t miss it.

BEHAR: Mine is too, but I can`t say the number, it gives me vertigo at this point.

MOORE: Oh, really?

BEHAR: It`s like don`t say the number. It`s all I ask. But the reason I ask--

MOORE: It`s like in the range of -- I`m in the range of --

BEHAR: Between life and death. That`s it.

MOORE: You know, those boxes that you check, those ones that say 0 to 18, and then 18 to 25 or whatever, you just tick the last box. That`s how I do it now. Just the end, just the last box.

BEHAR: Just tick the last box.

MOORE: Because they don`t get very specific after 35 or 40. After 40, it`s just the last box.

BEHAR: Because that`s the last --

MOORE: Because no one cares.

BEHAR: Because the box that`s coming is the --


BEHAR: -- the coffin, that`s the box.

MOORE: That`s what the black line is.

BEHAR: That`s the real box that`s coming.

MOORE: Yes. Yes. Right off the paper.

BEHAR: But I mean, you are constantly working. I was just looking up your filmography. You have done so many movies and so many of my favorites. I was telling you in the break about "A Single Man," which I loved.

MOORE: I love it.

BEHAR: I love that character you played.


BEHAR: That was another movie, "The End of the Affair."

MOORE: That was Ralph Fiennes. And then Colin Firth was in "A Single Man."

BEHAR: Do you like the British guys?

MOORE: Sure, yes. Handsome British guys, what`s not to like?

BEHAR: They are. They`re kind of hot in a way, aren`t they?

MOORE: Yes. In an English kind of way.

BEHAR: Like in "The English Patient," which you weren`t in--

MOORE: I wasn`t in that movie. That was--

BEHAR: But you were very, very sexually hot in "An End of the Affair."

MOORE: Thank you. That was a very romantic movie. Very sexy, very romantic.

BEHAR: Oh, yeah!

MOORE: Yeah.

BEHAR: And Ralph is -- you know, I`ve met him, he doesn`t come across in real life as this hot number, but in the movies --

MOORE: He`s very intense.

BEHAR: Whoa!

MOORE: I know. I know.

BEHAR: But I was going to ask you about being a woman, you know, over 40 --

MOORE: Right. In the last box.

BEHAR: In the last box.


BEHAR: Does it hurt you at all? I mean, women are complaining that they can`t get roles after 40. Although Meryl`s working and you`re working.


BEHAR: And Nicole Kidman is working.

MOORE: I think there are plenty of people working. I mean, whenever you hear that complaint about roles, about finding good roles after 40, I think it`s difficult to find good roles, period. I always remind people that the entertainment business is just that, it`s about entertainment, so they`re really interested in selling movies and selling them as widely as possible. And they`re not thinking about good roles for actors. You know, we`re the ones who are thinking about that. So I don`t know. I think you have to look around, you have to be inventive, you have to --

BEHAR: Do you worry?

MOORE: Who doesn`t? Yes, of course I worry.

BEHAR: You worry.

MOORE: Yes. But I`ve worried since I was a kid. I worried about getting work when I was 23.


MOORE: Just because, like I said, there aren`t a lot of jobs out there, really, I think. I mean, I think when it comes down to it, you think, well, it`s a freelance, it`s a freelance job. It`s not like you sign up -- I mean, you go into a firm and you`re going to stay at that firm until you retire.

BEHAR: I think that the British actors don`t seem to worry as much. Is that because-- why is that?

MOORE: They`re lying.

BEHAR: They`re lying?

MOORE: I think they`re lying.


MOORE: Liars. They worry. It`s just the accent makes you think they`re not worried.

BEHAR: Yes. They act like it`s fine with them. You know, like, I`ll just do theater.

MOORE: Yes, it`s a show. They put it all on.

BEHAR: Really?


BEHAR: That`s interesting.

MOORE: I know. See, I know, because I work with them. Yes.

BEHAR: OK, that`s good to know.

And now, what about, like, we were talking a little bit on the break also -- we had a good conversation before we started --


MOORE: We had a nice conversation.

BEHAR: But we don`t want to lose it, because we were talking about, you know, plastic surgery for actresses.

MOORE: Right.

BEHAR: What do you think about that?

MOORE: I don`t -- personally, I think that -- I think people should do whatever makes them feel good, you know. And if it`s something that you really want to do for yourself, then do it for yourself. But I have not found that it makes people look any younger. I find it just makes them look like they`ve had plastic surgery, for the most part.


MOORE: So, I mean, you know, so I feel like -- we were talking about age, and being in the last box and all that kind of thing, and I do think that you have to -- you have to be where you are. You know, you`re not -- for people who say like, you know, I don`t want to be 45 -- well, you`re not going to be 45 much longer. So if you don`t like being 45, before you know it, you`re going to be 46. And so like 45, because that`s gone by, you know?

BEHAR: Isn`t it true, when you`re 50, you look back on 40 and say--

MOORE: And you say, what was I thinking?

BEHAR: Yeah.

MOORE: So I try to, even though -- of course, we`re all vain and you want to -- I try to appreciate the fact that I am where I am in my life. I have these children that I have are where they are in their life.

BEHAR: That`s right.

MOORE: You just try to just acknowledge all of that.

BEHAR: OK. We`re going to take a break. When we come back, I want to talk about this cleaning obsession--

MOORE: The cleaning thing.

BEHAR: -- you have.

MOORE: I know.

BEHAR: Don`t go away.



BEHAR: We`re back with the lovely and talented Julianne Moore. Let`s talk a little bit about this cleaning thing.


BEHAR: So you`re partnering up with Bounty.

MOORE: Who have in turn partnered up with the PTO and the PTA organizations in the United States to clean up schools. So one of the things that Bounty found in doing their research is that something that kept showing up as a needed thing on teachers` lists were cleaning supplies, which is unfortunate.

BEHAR: Really.

MOORE: They shouldn`t be responsible for cleaning their classrooms. But they, you know, I think with budget cuts and all those stresses on schools these days, that sort of falls on their plate.

So Bounty has kind of, you know, found all these volunteers, parents and teachers, and during this (ph) week (ph), they`re committing to cleaning up 1,000 schools in the United States--

BEHAR: Really?

MOORE: -- and they`re donating all these cleaning products, basically saying, you know, let`s draw attention to this, let`s help out--

BEHAR: That`s nice.

MOORE: -- let`s not let teachers do this by themselves.

BEHAR: Listen, I was a teacher.

MOORE: Oh, you were?

BEHAR: I was, yes. I taught English, high school English. And I had to bring in my own books sometimes.

MOORE: Yeah.

BEHAR: So it`s really a drag. But are you going to clean up things by yourself? You know, Bette Midler --

MOORE: All by myself.

BEHAR: -- is on this cleaning jag also.


BEHAR: And she goes into parks and picks up garbage.

MOORE: And picks up garbage. I pick up garbage.

BEHAR: You do?

MOORE: Yes. I do. I don`t like garbage. Yes. So yes, so it`s kind of right in my wheelhouse, this cleaning thing.

BEHAR: That`s great.

MOORE: Yes, yes.

BEHAR: I guess it`s because you have kids and you`re interested in schools.

MOORE: I think so. I`m interested in schools. And it`s true, I mean, there`s so much wear and tear on our schools and they have so -- so little money to do stuff.

BEHAR: That`s terrible.

MOORE: You know, so--

BEHAR: And they`re the first to cut back on--


MOORE: And in terms of where a child learns, in terms of their health, you need to have a clean environment.

BEHAR: You know, one of the things I always admire about you, because I read about you here and there, you`re always with your children, you live in New York.

MOORE: Yes, yes.

BEHAR: You didn`t fly out and live in Beverly Hills and all that other stuff. How do you do that? Because you seem like more grounded than a lot of movie stars.

MOORE: Oh, thank you. You know, I feel -- I mean, I wanted a family really badly. I`m so happy with the family that I have. We have a lot of family on the East Coast, we wanted to be here. My husband grew up in the city, so for us it was a logical place to live and raise our children. It`s a great city for kids, I think.

BEHAR: It`s the best.

MOORE: Yes. I loved it, they love it.

BEHAR: Museums and parks and jamborees and everything.

MOORE: Yes. Everything is kind of right there, and great schools. And so I feel fortunate to be here.

BEHAR: And I read somewhere that you were saying that you cannot mix children with your sex life, which I agree with.


BEHAR: I mean, in terms of you got to get rid of the kids--

MOORE: No, what it was, you know, it was a question--

BEHAR: -- to have a romantic night, right?

MOORE: It was a question -- Tom Ford (ph) asked me this question, "Instyle" magazine said, you know, when do you feel sexy? And I said when I`m not with my children.

BEHAR: Well, that`s right. That`s right.

MOORE: Because you know, you have to have a little -- you have to have some separation, because it`s true, all that mommy stuff doesn`t make you feel really like --

BEHAR: Do you and your husband just sort of take time off together and go off to --

MOORE: We try -- you know, you try to. We try to go out or go to dinner or take a little trip or something like that. But you know, it`s hard.

BEHAR: Do you travel with the kids too?

MOORE: Yes, we do. I mean, we do. We do lots of family vacations, and then when I`m working, if I`m working in the summertime, everybody goes, we all go there. And President`s Day weekend, the guys are going to go away. They`re going to go snow boarding--

BEHAR: Oh, that`s nice.

MOORE: -- and my daughter and I are staying here. So we do that, you know, that kind of thing.

MOORE: What would you do if you got a movie in Australia, you had to be there for, like, four months? What would you do?

MOORE: It would be really hard. Four months would be really challenging.


MOORE: I mean, first, you try -- you try to schedule it in the summertime when the kids are out of school. And then you try to break it down. Or you do it in little bits and have them come for part of it and then you go back. You know what I mean, it`s a real balance. But it`s something that you, you know, I`m lucky I have a flexible job. So I try to -- you know, sometimes it works out really well and sometimes it`s just a mess.

BEHAR: I just think you`re terrific, I have to tell you.

MOORE: Thank you.

BEHAR: I just like the whole thing about you.

MOORE: Thanks, Joy.

BEHAR: It`s lovely to have you here.

MOORE: Thank you.

BEHAR: And don`t forget to check out my interview tomorrow night with my old pal Rosie O`Donnell. Don`t miss it. Wednesday night at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.