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Casey Anthony Murder Trial; Interview With Gene Simmons, Shannon Tweed

Aired June 15, 2011 - 22:00:00   ET


ANNOUNCER: Coming up on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, the spotlight is now on the defense team in the Casey Anthony trial. But by laying out alternate theories of the crime, does Jose Baez have to prove one of them, and can he?

Then, one of the nation`s leading psychiatrists tells Joy where Casey Anthony falls on the depravity scale and what motivates mothers who kill their kids.

Plus, you don`t want to miss Joy`s explosive interview with Gene Simmons and his partner, Shannon Tweed.




SIMMONS: Thanks for the question.

JOY BEHAR, HLN HOST: I`m sorry. You blaming it on me? Don`t put this on me.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That and more starting right now.

BEHAR: Casey Anthony`s life is now in the hands of her defense team. The prosecution officially rested today in the murder trial which means Jose Baez begins his defense tomorrow. But could his attempt to get Casey off the hook end up backfiring? That`s the question.

Joining me now are Ashleigh Banfield, correspondent for ABC News; Judge Alex Ferrer, host of "Judge Alex" and Florida Circuit Court judge; and Stacy Honowitz, Florida prosecutor.

Stacy, prosecution rested its case today. Overall, do you think they did a good job?

STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: I really think they did a fabulous job. I`m not just saying it because I`m a prosecutor, but this was the most high-profile case you can imagine. The cameras were there, the nation was watching. They didn`t play to the camera. There wasn`t a lot of theatrics. It was get the witness on, ask the questions, move on to the next.

And they laid a great foundation. They told about her history, her life. Then we moved into the meat and potatoes, the forensic evidence, and they wound up really strong. So I really think they did a bang-up job.


However, the defense team asked the judge for an acquittal this morning. Let`s watch that.


CHENEY MASON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: There is no evidence to establish when the child died other than in a monthly window of possibility. Where she died, how she died. They have failed poorly to rebut a reasonable hypothesis of innocence, that is that there was accidental death.


BEHAR: Ok. Judge Alex, now, no acquittal was granted by this judge. Was that the right decision?

JUDGE ALEX FERRER, HOST, "JUDGE ALEX": Oh, absolutely. You know, motions for judgment of acquittal are standard and required really at the end of every state`s case in criminal prosecution. So you expected it. I didn`t expect it to be quite as drawn out by Mr. Cheney as it was, and I didn`t really expect the ruling to be as drawn out as it was.

I think it could have been handled with a "Thank you for your motion, it`s denied." And certainly the state has presented a prima facie case. Now we`ll see what the defense presents and if the defense presents anything of substance, at the end there will be a real question to address. But right now there`s no question.

BEHAR: Ok. Now the defense attorney, Cheney Mason, he was doing most of the work there. What about Baez, Ashleigh? What happened to him?

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, CORRESPONDENT, ABC NEWS: Well, he was pretty much relegated to listening today. And listen, that guy`s been very busy, make no mistake. This is a team approach. For the most part they`ve been working pro bono for a number of the years that they`ve been on this case.

This is not unusual to see somebody handle one area or one particular area of witnesses and then someone else handling another area. It`s almost like somebody might close and someone else might give opening statements.

BEHAR: I see. Ok. The defense case starts tomorrow.

So let`s listen to part of the defense`s opening statement made back in May. Let`s listen.


JOSE BAEZ, DEFENSE ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: It all began when Casey was 8 years old and her father came into her room and began to touch her inappropriately and it escalated. This child who at 8 years old learned to lie immediately. She could be 13 years old, have her father`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) in her mouth, and then go to school and play with the other kids as if nothing ever happened.


BEHAR: Stacey that is a scathing accusation, and obviously the father denies this. Can the defense prove any of this? And do they have to? Prove it actually?

HONOWITZ: Well, we know in a criminal case the defense doesn`t have to do anything, Joy. They can sit there and read a book or play crossword puzzles. It`s the state`s burden to prove the evidence beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt.

But when you get up there and you say and make those accusations that this is why certain events took place, you better find a way to substantiate it because that jury is relying on you and what you said.

And really what he did was he backed her into a corner because the only one that can tell the story about alleged sexual abuse is Casey. None of us were there. There`s no other witness to it but her. So she`s going to have to take the stand.

BEHAR: Yes. Even if she does, is the jury going to believe her? I mean, it`s a he said/she said situation, is it not?

HONOWITZ: Well, I always said she`s like the Jordan Van Der Sloot of the United States. You can`t believe anything she says. She has lied throughout this entire investigation.

So even if she takes that stand, you might find somebody that might, you know, have a little bit of sympathy if she gets anything across. But I don`t know at the end of the day how a defense attorney is going to be able to have a jury believe when all we have seen are lies upon lies.

BEHAR: But if they just present it, does the jury have to consider it, Ashleigh, just putting it out there?

BANFIELD: If they don`t present what? Does the jury have to consider what, a defense?

BEHAR: If they just present the abuse situation, does the jury have to consider it as part of their determination?

BANFIELD: Well, you know, statement are not evidence. The evidence comes after the statements. And certainly that`s something that is going to be sticking in the jury`s mind. It`s a very uncomfortable situation, having the parents staring that jury down every single day almost of this court proceeding.

We`re at day 30, I will remind everybody now. We`re at day 30, including jury selection. It`s a long, drawn-out process. They`re not going to forget that. Because that was one of the real hammer home bullet points that was made in opening.


BANFIELD: So, you know what? I think Stacey`s right. And I do believe that the defense is damned if they do and damned if they don`t if Casey gets on the stand. But I`ll tell something else, Joy, it doesn`t matter if Casey gets on the stand -- this mystery will never be solved, not to Alex, not to me, not to you, not to Stacey or anybody watching. Because even if she gets up and tells the truth one day we are never going to know if it is the truth.

BEHAR: Well, we have to live with that I guess, on many, many cases that we talk about. There`s ambiguity all over the place.

Well, here`s another part of the defense`s opening statement that may cause problems. Baez is talking about the moments after Caylee allegedly drowned. Watch this.


BAEZ: As soon as Casey came around this corner and went back, she saw George Anthony holding Caylee in his arms. She immediately grabbed Caylee and began to cry and cry and cry. And shortly thereafter, George began to yell at her, "Look what you`ve done. Your mother will never forgive you. And you will go to jail for child neglect for the rest of your freaking life."


BEHAR: George isn`t going along with this at all. Isn`t that a major problem for the defense? Judge Alex, I`m speaking to -- sorry.

FERRER: I`ll tell you -- yes, that`s ok. I`ll tell you, Joy, the major problem for the defense is that it`s an unbelievable defense. I`m a former police officer in addition to being a former lawyer and judge.

So I know from a police perspective, George Anthony of all people would know that if the child drowned in the pool, his daughter`s not going to be charged. So why would he take his granddaughter`s body and throw away? Then when his daughter gets accused of first-degree murder and he knows that she actually drowned, why would he sit back and watch her go to the death chamber?

And why would he stick the body in the trunk of a car? As a police officer, he knows what happens to a body when it decomposes in the trunk of a car and the smell`s unmistakable.

Those are all the actions of somebody who doesn`t know like Casey Anthony who put a sticker on the duct tape that was over the child`s mouth -- a heart sticker --

BANFIELD: Allegedly. Allegedly.

FERRER: Everything points back to Casey. And it`s unbelievable -- it`s unbelievable that George Anthony would take those steps. I don`t think the jury will buy it.

BEHAR: Ok. That`s interesting. All right. Now, Ashleigh, the defense starts their case tomorrow. Do we know who they may call up first?

BANFIELD: Actually, we just had a big surprise. A brand new went added to the witness list and it`s an ex-con. Somebody who has a felony rap sheet that the defense is alleging has had all sorts of contact with George Anthony. I think it was July 14, right in this critical period.

And actually George Anthony`s attorney has already put out a statement to tamp that down saying he has no idea who this witness is, he`s never met him, he`s never heard of him, he`s never talked to him. And he`s angry. And some of the words in the statement basically smack down the defendant, his own daughter, as well.

So there`s a bit of drama even before the defense begins its case, Joy.

BEHAR: It sounds to me, Judge Alex, that the defense has a big problem here. But as Ashleigh said, it`s up to the prosecution to prove the case. So do they have a big problem or don`t they?

FERRER: No, they absolutely have a big problem. Baez got up and like Stacey said, got up and promised something that he can`t deliver. And now the only way he can deliver it is by putting her on the stand.

If she gets on the stand and tells yet another lie -- which is think the only way a jury will buy it if she tells another lie. She then may make herself so unlikable that she will actually be subject to the death penalty, which I just don`t see it happening otherwise.

BEHAR: Ok. Well, this will be continued in the next segment so stay right there. We`ll be right back with some more on the Casey Anthony trial.


BEHAR: During the course of the Casey Anthony trial, we`ve listened to recordings of Casey calmly talking to a 911 operator about her missing child. We`ve heard testimony that she made up an imaginary nanny. She`s lied to investigators and she lashed out at her mother among other things.

So are these all clues to the real Casey Anthony, and is this behavior typically of what we`ve seen in other cases where mothers are accused of killing their children?

Here now to discuss this is one of the country`s leading forensic psychiatrists, Dr. Michael Welner, chairman of the forensic panel and associate professor of psychiatry at NYU School of Medicine.

Ok, what is it about this -- we`ve seen a lot of cases like this -- there`s not a lot, but enough. Andrea Yates, Susan Smith --



BEHAR: Too many of these women who killed a child. What is it about Casey Anthony that stands out to you? What`s different?

WELNER: Well, what`s the first thing you told me when I came out today? And that is, well, you -- you have to be crazy. It`s so outlandish for us to just contemplate the idea of a mother killing her children that it`s -- it`s natural for us to say, well, she must be crazy. She must be psychotic.

And here you have someone who is so unaffected, who`s so unremarkable.


WELNER: So unremarkable that no matter how much you convince yourself that she must be sick, you take all this in and say there`s no way that she can be. And that`s what`s so stunning.

We look at someone like Andrea Yates; we had to think she was sick. We had to think Susan Smith was so sick. They may have been affected by psychiatric illness, but it`s so foreign to us that we make these people sicker. You cannot make someone who`s so banal, who`s so carefree --


BEHAR: Right.

WELNER: Who`s doing hot body contests and shopping and --


BEHAR: Getting tattoos.

WELNER: And getting together with her boyfriend and all this who is not only unremarkable but who is writing in her diary, "I`m as happy as I`ve ever been". You can`t make her sick. And that`s what so remarkable, and I think that that`s what`s touching the consciousness of a lot of people who`s -- who are following this case.


BEHAR: Well, that`s how interesting. I mean, so Andrea Yates, you say, was really a mental case. And you could see it.

WELNER: Well, Andrea Yates, and I examined her --


BEHAR: She -- she drowned her five children, right?

WELNER: She drowned her five children and she had depression and she had a severe depression. But she was also angry and resentful. And Andrea Yates was planning to kill her children for two months as soon as she got the opportunity. And as soon as she was given access to kill her children in a way that she wouldn`t be interrupted, she did.

Ultimately, in my professional opinion, she killed her children because she was overwhelmed. And a number of sick or drug-addicted mothers do that.

In the Anthony case, we`re dealing with different issues. And the more that we`ve learned about how detached she was from her children, the more we come to question whether she saw Caylee as a hindrance, as an inconvenience for her.

BEHAR: Well, see that reminds me of the Susan Smith case. Because she was in love with a guy who she perceives would be not interested in her with the baggage of children. So she decided to drown her boys.


BEHAR: So in a way, is that -- how was that different from this, from this Andrea Yates who also saw them as a hindrance?

WELNER: Well, my experience with Andrea Yates was not that she saw her children as a hindrance but that she -- felt so invested in her identity as a mother --



WELNER: -- that she couldn`t bear the idea of failing. So she made a selfish choice to kill her children. Her children had no say in the matter.


BEHAR: Right.

WELNER: Now when Noah`s pouring cereal for himself he doesn`t think that he`s going to be drowning in the bath tub five minutes later. And so it is with Caylee, there is no conflict here. But if Casey is responsible, she made a selfish choice to say my needs, my satisfaction --


BEHAR: My needs.

WELNER: -- are intruded upon by your presence. How dare you 3-year- old be in my life, preventing me from living the life that I want to live. And this is one of the reasons why --


BEHAR: But why not -- when -- when someone has that kind of thought process, why not just give the child up to the grandparents and say, look - - I can`t deal with this child, you raise the child? From what I`ve seen, the grandparents would have done that.

WELNER: In hindsight, we think that these -- you know, these options are always available. I asked Andrea Yates about the same thing. In her instance, she didn`t want the perception of failing as a mother. How does Casey --


BEHAR: It`s crazy.

WELNER: How does -- well --

BEHAR: She`s so crazy.

WELNER: Is it? Is it crazy, or is it someone who is so prideful about their identity as a mother? I think with Casey, she hasn`t given any answers so we can`t make that presumption. But what I will tell you is that when you see how carefree, how upbeat she was -- one common thread, Joy, to the mother who intentionally kills her child --


WELNER: -- sick or not sick is --


WELNER: -- alienated. Over time, they are increasingly estranged. Yes, they`re kissy and huggy in the Christmas photos. But by the time it gets to the homicide, that relationship has become estranged and detached. And that`s the by product that you see in just how unaffected she is not only in how she behaved but how she was communicating with others about the missing child.

BEHAR: All right and let`s break down --

WELNER: Thirty days, not reporting a missing child.

BEHAR: I know. Let`s listen to a 911 call made after Caylee went missing.


CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month. Her mother finally admitted that she`s been missing. Get someone here now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ok -- what is the address that you`re calling from?

CINDY ANTHONY: 4137 Hope Spring Drive. We`re talking about a 3-year- old little girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you tell me a little about what`s going on?

CASEY ANTHONY: My daughter`s been missing for the last 31 days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you know who has her?

CASEY ANTHONY: I know who has her. I`ve tried to contact her.


BEHAR: Ok. As you can see, the mother -- the grandmother is hysterical at the thought that the child is missing. And the mother is -- this disassociated human being, calm and collected. So tell me about it.

WELNER: Well Joy, you`ve got to be careful because some people are more close to the vest and more reserved and some people are more emotive.

BEHAR: Right.

WELNER: The way you interpret it from the perspective of forensic psychiatry is does Casey Anthony get excited? What does she get emotional over? And if she does, if she has things that she`s sensitive to, well, clearly the missing child didn`t touch those sensitivities. And that`s when it becomes notable, remarkable.

If she`s always like that, if she`s always unaffected.


BEHAR: Then that`s her personality.

WELNER: Well, then that`s her personality, and you have to be careful about side by side -- we`re all different in how we relate under stress.

But if there are circumstances in which she relates just like we heard her mother, well, then it is remarkable.

BEHAR: Ok. Ok. We`ll continue this in just a minute. Interesting.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up a little later on THE JOY BEHAR SHOW, Gene Simmons and his partner of 28 years, Shannon Tweed drop by in what could be one of the most bizarre interviews you`ll ever see.


BEHAR: I`m back with forensic psychiatrist Dr. Michael Welner.

You know, this past April there was a woman who drove herself and her kids into the Hudson River. She killed herself and her three children. But at the last minute she seemed to regret it. She told the boy who swam out, go get help. But it was too late, the other children and she drowned. What`s the difference between a mother that kills herself with the kids and the one who just kills the kids?

WELNER: Well, there are two things in common and then we`ll talk about the difference. The common point is that it`s a selfish act. It`s not a crazy act, it`s a selfish act.

BEHAR: Right.

WELNER: How is it selfish? It`s the mother saying I know what`s best. I know that it`s best to take your life. That`s my choice. That`s a decision I`ll make even if you struggle.

Where they differ is that the mother who kills her children -- either because she`s overwhelmed or because she`s mentally ill or because she doesn`t want the inconvenience is doing it for purely selfish reasons --


WELNER: -- and there are some mothers who are depressed, who are suicidal, who kill themselves and wonder how their children will go on without them or they do not want the burden of the pain of their children being motherless.

And then there are the mothers who kill themselves because they`re angry at a significant other.

BEHAR: Right. That`s what I think this one did.

WELNER: And they feel the significant other still doesn`t care. So they say oh, you don`t feel pain when I kill myself? I will spitefully take something that I know is precious to you. So I think --

BEHAR: It`s like the Greek tragedy Medea. That`s exactly what the story is about. To get back at Jason who dumped her. Same idea as this woman.

WELNER: Well, one of the reasons we`re talking about these kinds of cases is that it`s all too easy for us to dismiss these people as disturbed. I think we need to be focusing more on the selfishness of child-killing because no one speaks for the children. And what child would say, "You know what, Mom, good idea, drown me. That`s a good idea. I agree with that rationale." The children have no voice in this. They have no power. And they can`t resist.

BEHAR: So what should we do? What should we do with these people? I mean it`s getting to be a lot of stories like this.

WELNER: Well, I think one of the disturbing experiences of the Yates case, and I actually had this come up in a later case in Texas where a father beheaded his children --

BEHAR: Oh, my God.

WELNER: He beheaded three children. And his rationale approaching trial was if Andrea Yates can be found insane, so can I.

What I find as a forensic psychiatrist is that mothers are considering homicide as an available option. That is a moral emptiness in who we are. If no one is protecting the children and if it`s an option for the overwhelmed and depressed parent to kill a child, we failed.

Now, we live in a society where you can`t kill a police officer. Why can`t we extend the same protections to defenseless children?

BEHAR: You`ll get the chair. You`ll get the chair for that.

Thank you very much, sir.

We`ll be right back after a short break.


BEHAR: Hugh Hefner`s much younger fiancee, Crystal Harris, 60 years younger in fact, has called off their wedding just days before the pair was set to say I do. How many wedding engagements has this been for Hef? Between popping the question and popping Viagra, the man must be exhausted.

Here to talk about all this and other stories in the news are Claire Sinclair, playmate of the year and the girlfriend of Hef`s son, which is nice. Michelle Collins, comedian and managing editor of, and Ian Drew, senior editor of "Us Weekly."

Welcome to the show, you guys. So, Claire, are you surprised that Crystal called off the wedding?

CLAIRE SINCLAIR, PLAYMATE OF THE YEAR: Not at all. Not in the least.

BEHAR: You`re not?


BEHAR: You know her very well, right?

SINCLAIR: Yes. And it was made blatantly obvious to everyone that they didn`t have chemistry. I mean, everyone was kind of surprised that he even proposed to her. So I mean, there was no chemistry, they didn`t have anything in common. And I think that she was just using him. I mean, it`s no coincidence to me that she ends the engagement the day that her single comes out on iTunes. So, I mean, I think it was a publicity stunt.

BEHAR: Isn`t she clever?

SINCLAIR: Seriously.

BEHAR: I mean, they`re not in love -- what girl, 25-year-old, doesn`t dream about an 85-year-old man in pajamas, walking around in pajamas all day? I mean, how did he even think for a minute --

MICHELLE COLLINS, COMEDIAN: There`s a line of women parading around the block waiting for him to die.


IAN DREW, SR. EDITOR, US WEEKLY: He has the zoo. The zoo makes it all worthwhile.

SINCLAIR: It -- Hugh is an amazing guy, and he deserves much better, and he can get much better. That`s what it comes down to.


COLLINS: He tweeted that they broke up. You know, she had a change of heart. And I`m just picturing him doing it from like his Life Alert. The guy tweets -- can he do that?



BEHAR: He`s in good shape. He`s 85 -- but the question is what makes a man of 85 think that a 25-year-old girl is actually madly in love with him and wants to sleep him? What is that about? In a man`s mind? You`re a man. Tell me.

DREW: Well, I mean, she`s had some big assets, as you know what I mean. But no, she -- she --

BEHAR: She has big assets. What -- she has big assets.

DREW: That`s what I`m saying. She`s got her own.

BEHAR: I understand why he`s interested in her. Why would he think that she`s interested in him?

DREW: I think he doesn`t care. At this point --

BEHAR: He doesn`t care?

DREW: Look at Pierce -- the guy with Anna Nicole Smith. I mean, at that point, it was just like, sure, come on down. But you know, we spoke to her today. She said she legitimately got cold feet. She just felt it wasn`t right. And, you know, that`s her side of the story.

BEHAR: What about what Claire just said about the single coming out today?

DREW: Well, that came out -- exactly. It is interesting timing.


DREW: I`m just telling you what she said. Not necessarily --


COLLINS: The single, by the way, is horrendous. It sounds like the Terminator produced from the grave. It`s so bad. It`s like a robo -- it doesn`t even sound human. It`s crazy. You have to hear it.


DREW: It`s probably no worse than any "Real Housewife" single out there.


BEHAR: What about this rumor that she was dating Dr. Phil`s son Jordan McGraw on the side? Did that have anything to do with the breakup? Ian, you might know this, or you do.

DREW: She denied it. She denied it. I know that the New York Post had sources saying so. She said no, it was simply she was like, she got cold feet. She was on the way to the altar and was like, you know what, this is just not going to be right.

BEHAR: What do you say to that, Michelle?

COLLINS: First of all, Dr. Phil`s son is so handsome.

BEHAR: Is he?

COLLINS: I couldn`t believe it. I Googled him. I was like -- this - - I was expecting a basketball with a mustache. This is his son, he`s a very good-looking guy.


BEHAR: That`s his son. The one we just showed.

COLLINS: He`s really handsome.


BEHAR: Genetic miracle.


BEHAR: I mean, I like Dr. Phil, but you know, this kid is really good-looking.

COLLINS: Insane.

BEHAR: Whoa.

And let`s see, she reportedly considered leaving Hef at the altar in exchange for a $500,000 deal to sell her story to the tabloids. What about that? What do you know about that? Claire, do you know anything about this?

SINCLAIR: I mean, you can look at this and just see that she`s incredibly selfish from this act of, I mean, making everyone go through these extensive preparations for a wedding for six months. And it was made to be like the American version of the royal wedding. So it was intense. And to make them go all that way, and down to five days before a wedding, and then pull out like that, it`s a selfish move. I don`t put it past her.

BEHAR: She might have been planning the whole thing.

SINCLAIR: I think it was calculated.

COLLINS: When I first heard it, I was like, this woman is a genius.


BEHAR: This is not just a pair of boobs. This is brilliant stuff.

COLLINS: Did she get a brain implant? Is that a thing you can get? Because I think she got that.


BEHAR: Hef tweeted the following, I`ll read it. "Since we`re not getting married on Saturday, I`ve scheduled a movie "Runaway Bride." Seems appropriate." He`s got a sense of humor about it and good for him. OK.

Speaking of weddings, Kim Kardashian and Chris Humphries have registered at the upscale Beverly Hills store Geary`s for a whopping $172,000 worth of gifts, like baccarat crystals, vases and dinnerware. Really, dinnerware? Wouldn`t a video camera be a gift she might actually use? OK. They made $65 million, the Kardashians, last year.

Isn`t it -- call me mean and crabby, but isn`t it a little bit selfish to ask for gifts when you make that kind of money? She can buy the baccarat herself. She doesn`t need people to give it to her.

DREW: This is why she has the money, though, she gets everything for free. I mean, everything. So they don`t -- I mean, it`s the total code (ph) for the whole family.

BEHAR: I mean, Sherri Shepherd (ph) is getting married and she is only taking donations for charity.

SINCLAIR: That`s what Hef was going to do.

BEHAR: And Hef was going to do that.

COLLINS: I would not do that, just for the record.



COLLINS: -- register at the Cheesecake Factory.


BEHAR: I mean, I love you, Michelle, but you`re not in the same financial category as these people.

COLLINS: Sadly true.

BEHAR: If you would make a sex tape, maybe you could be in the ballpark.

COLLINS: I would make $8. But thank you for saying that. That`s sweet.

BEHAR: And Prince William and Kate, for example, the richest people in the world probably, close -- they -- they`re sending all their gifts to charity. All the money to charity. That`s the way it should go.

COLLINS: What bothered me about the Kardashian thing is I looked at actually the tuff they registered for. And if it was good stuff, I would get it. But one of the things, a jam jar. Like a $500 jam jar.


COLLINS: Jam comes in a jar. What do you need a jam jar for?

BEHAR: Good point.


COLLINS: Butter dishes, six butter dishes. How much butter is she eating, Joy?


BEHAR: What about the ashtray? Who smokes anymore? She`s getting an expensive ashtray.

COLLINS: An ashtray?

BEHAR: Yes. Two baccarat crystal ashtrays for $840 each for each ashtray. Come on. Steal one from a restaurant. That`s crazy.


DREW: Honestly, I would not be surprised if this was some sort of money deal in itself. Knowing them, the store said, oh, give us your registry, we`ll give you a whole bunch of stuff for free. It`s just how they work.

BEHAR: It`s not against the law to do that? People have gotten into trouble for that.

DREW: Yes.

BEHAR: OK. Let`s talk about Jennifer Aniston. She`s being branded a home wrecker after it was revealed her new man, Justin Theroux, ditched his girlfriend of 14 years for her. So is Jen the new Angelina Jolie? And how soon does she start adopting kids from Namibia? Namibia? Where is Namibia?

COLLINS: Africa.

BEHAR: It`s in Africa. I knew that. I knew that, OK. What about this? I mean what do you think about this story? Jennifer Aniston has this angelic sort of rap -- she`s very -- her reputation and she`s a good girl, right?

DREW: Yes.

BEHAR: But is this going to ruin her reputation?

DREW: Well, we`ve spoken to sources close to her and Justin. They all insist that that relationship was over before that happened. This is the logical, of course, conclusion to make. Oh, this is what must have happened. But they`re all saying, no, he definitely waited until that was over and then he got on with Jen.

BEHAR: Well, Jen famously called Angelina uncool, didn`t she, for --


BEHAR: Stealing Brad Pitt from her.

COLLINS: I think there`s a big difference because Justin was only dating this girl. Admittedly, they were dating for 14 years. If you`re his girlfriend for 14 years and you don`t get married or make it more serious, I don`t know -- in a way it`s almost like doomed to fail, I feel like.

BEHAR: What do you mean more serious? Like getting married?

COLLINS: They`re living together for 14 years. I mean, she didn`t break up a marriage, she broke up a boyfriend/girlfriend.

BEHAR: What`s the difference? It`s the same thing.

COLLINS: It`s not the same thing.

BEHAR: Excuse me.


BEHAR: I`m with my boy, my guy, 28 years -- we might as well be married, it`s the same boring thing.

COLLINS: I feel like Jen -- it is boring --


BEHAR: No different. I mean --

COLLINS: I feel like Jen`s doing a new thing, pay it backwards. Where something horrible happened to her, so she`s paying it backwards to this other girl.

BEHAR: Paying it backwards. Funny. That`s a good idea for a movie. Write that screenplay. Paying it backwards.


DREW: Just don`t have her star in it.


BEHAR: I love that. OK, thank you all very much. Check out Michelle on VH-1`s new morning talk show, weekdays at 9:30. Good for you. We`ll be right back. Got a gig.



SHANNON TWEED: I was going to show you the son you had. And I want you to know how much fun I had. Enjoying the photos. And I ...

GENE SIMMONS: Yes, but that`s just -- we just went for ...

TWEED: You know. We just, we just. I`m sick of hearing it. I`m sick of seeing it, and I`m sick of living with it.

SIMMONS: I have no idea -- listen, I never met these girls before. They were there ...

TWEED: Genie, please don`t play me for a fool.


BEHAR: That was the legendary Kiss front man in shall we say, an awkward moment with his significant other of over 27 years, Shannon Tweed, in the new season of "Gene Simmons Family Jewels" on A&E. And they`re with me now.

TWEED: We have some interesting body language going on there.

SIMMONS: I`m holding on for dear life. Because I`m surrounded by both of you. Good god. I saw you -- I saw --oh. Kill me now.

BEHAR: Uh-oh.

TWEED: What`s going on under there? See that.

BEHAR: Oh. You can`t hide. You can run, but you can`t hide, Gene.

GS : Oh, mommy.

BEHAR: What was going on in that clip? What`s going on over there?

SIMMONS: I -- I had ...

TWEED: He`s a pig, and I don`t like it.

BEHAR: He`s a pig? OK.

TWEED: And I`m done.

BEHAR: You`re finished with him.


BEHAR: But you`re not married so you don`t have to get a divorce.

SIMMONS: I had ...

TWEED: Isn`t that good?

SIMMONS: You`re not married either.

TWEED: That`s the good news.

SIMMONS: You`re not married?


SIMMONS: So, it was a nice day today, didn`t you think?

BEHAR: What do you have, two girls that -- you took a picture with while you were on the road?



TWEED: Are you killing me right now? What do you mean two?

SIMMONS: We`re out of time.

TWEED: 2,000.

SIMMONS: We -- what was the question? We went out to dinner.


SIMMONS: It was a business meeting ...

TWEED: You don`t need to explain. It`s not about that.

SIMMONS: She was asking me --

TWEED: What about that day?

BEHAR: It`s about what?

TWEED: The life.

BEHAR: The life. You`ve been with him for 27 years. Is it new?

TWEED: I`m tired -- I`m tired.


TWEED: I`m tired of it.

BEHAR: You`re tired of the life?

TWEED: Well, the kids went to college, and I`m tired of his life.

BEHAR: Which is?

TWEED: That -- that stuff. It`s stupid crap.

BEHAR: Uh-huh.

TWEED: Part of it.

BEHAR: Let`s watch another clip. You`re off the hook (ph).


TWEED: I don`t want to do it anymore. I`m now in the second phase of my life. The kids are gone. I have to make decisions on whether I want to continue doing this, this way or I want to find a better way.

SIMMONS: You can`t find a better way. This is -- this is the only way.

TWEED: I don`t want to do it anymore.


BEHAR: What do you mean this is the only way? And why did you make her cry? What`s going on?

SIMMONS: I didn`t make her cry. This ...

TWEED: Hardly ever.

SIMMONS: We belong together. And the fact that she stuck by me warts and all for 28 years ...

TWEED: Don`t call them warts, they`re people.

SIMMONS: No, no. That`s not what I meant.

BEHAR: What did you say? Warts?

SIMMONS: Warts and all.

TWEED: Warts and all.

SIMMONS: In other words, me.


BEHAR: Warts.

SIMMONS: She meant them -- I`m not talking about them, I`m talking about me.

TWEED: Those are your warts.

SIMMONS: Oh, boy. So, I need Shannon to keep my feet to the fire, keep me grounded. You know, she`s got greater wisdom. I may have other sort of business sense and all this kind of stuff, but you know, men are basically 12-year-old boys who ...

TWEED: There you go. Giving yourself company.

BEHAR: So let me try and understand this because I don`t know what`s going on here. It sounds like you have been together a long time. You have your philandering ways, is that what I`m hearing?

TWEED: There you go. I like that word.

BEHAR: Is that true, Gene?

SIMMONS: There have been.

BEHAR: There have been. Are there any now?

SIMMONS: Not right now.

BEHAR: Not right this minute.

TWEED: In the last ..

BEHAR: Because you`re here.

TWEED: In the last, what, month?

BEHAR: You know.

TWEED: Month?

BEHAR: In the last month.

TWEED: Month, would you say?



TWEED: Congratulations.

BEHAR: So she seems to have had it.

SIMMONS: Pretty much.

BEHAR: And yet you`re on television in this reality show. It`s in the can already?


TWEED: Yes, it`s in the can.

BEHAR: How many more episodes after the one I just showed?

SIMMONS: Well, I hope another five. They ordered another five after that.

BEHAR: They did?

TWEED: If I can stand it.

BEHAR: Are you going to do the five, Shannon?

TWEED: I might.

BEHAR: You might? All righty.

SIMMONS: I think she just flipped me the bird. I don`t know -- I`m not sure.

TWEED: You`ve got enough birds, I think.

BEHAR: OK. Let`s -- let`s say -- Alice Cooper was on the show. Another rock `n` roll ...

SIMMONS: Who`s that?

BEHAR: Legend. And he spoke about the lifestyle. So -- and he talked about you, Gene. Watch.


ALICE COOPER, MUSICIAN: That lifestyle only goes so far, and then you start thinking about what`s important, you know?

BEHAR: That`s right. That`s right.


BEHAR: But in those days, you know, Gene Simmons was on the show -- I`ve heard this before from him anyway -- he claims that he had sex with 5,000 women. Do you believe that? He ...

COOPER: At the same time?



BEHAR: If that`s true, wouldn`t he be in traction at this point?



BEHAR: How`s your back, Gene?

SIMMONS: My back is good. My schmekel (ph) not so much.

TWEED: That`s very nice of you to joke about it.

SIMMONS: It`s a joke. (BLEEP) Where are you going? What are you doing?

TWEED: I`m so (inaudible). So rude. So rude.

BEHAR: She`s done with you.

TWEED: It`s so rude of you to joke about it. You think that it`s really funny ...

SIMMONS: I was just joking because she`s a comedienne.

TWEED: Here. Thank you.

SIMMONS: Thanks for the question.

BEHAR: I`m sorry -- you`re blaming it on me? Don`t put this on me. This is all yours.

SIMMONS: You did that entire setup. Please come back here.

TWEED: You know what, no. You joke about it, and it`s not funny.

SIMMONS: Well, I`m trying to make you feel a little more comfortable.

BEHAR: So it`s possible that she`s done with you, Gene. How do you feel about it?

SIMMONS: Well, I hope not.

BEHAR: You hope not.

SIMMONS: Please come back.

BEHAR: Shannon, you want to come back?

TWEED: I don`t really.

BEHAR: She doesn`t. She`s -- she`s mad. She`s mad.

TWEED: I`m tired. I`m tired.

SIMMONS: Good setup, Joy.

BEHAR: Don`t blame me for this.

SIMMONS: Well, you`re ...

BEHAR: I thought that that`s what we were talking about.

SIMMONS: We were going to talk about our new season.

BEHAR: So, you know, here`s the problem with a person in my position. A lot of these reality shows, you know, they`re [EXPLETIVE DELETED] -- I don`t know if it`s true or not. So I thought that this is a game. Now it turns out that it`s really true.

SIMMONS: No, this is ...

BEHAR: I really thought this was part of the, you know, the ...

SIMMONS: No, this is actually happening to us.

BEHAR: The -- so-called realty show shtick, because I don`t ...


BEHAR: You know, I mean are you supposed to believe everything you see on a realty show? So, I thought it was -- you were kidding, and I see that you are not.


BEHAR: So, it`s not a pretty picture.

SIMMONS: Shannon, come back!

BEHAR: She`s mad because you made a joke about it.

SIMMONS: I was trying to lighten the mood, and I thought ...

BEHAR: She was not having it.

SIMMONS: Yes. I thought I was ...

BEHAR: Well, how are you going to make amends, Gene? You can fix this. How are you going to do it?

SIMMONS: Well, I need Shannon to keep my feet to the fire. She knows -- women generally do.

BEHAR: But she needs you to be faithful to her ...


BEHAR: ...and to be a good husband. You know? And it doesn`t sound like you are.

SIMMONS: Not married, though.

BEHAR: Well, whatever. You know. 27 years, come on.


BEHAR: 28 years, you`re married in a certain way, you know?

SIMMONS: And we have two amazing kids.

BEHAR: Plus, you have kids and everything.

SIMMONS: Two great kids.

BEHAR: I mean, so, what are you going to do about it?

SIMMONS: I`m going to work on it.

BEHAR: Yeah, I think you need to start begging her.

SIMMONS: Yeah, I do that, too.

BEHAR: All right. Well, good luck with you and Shannon. I`m sorry that it happened this way. But ...


BEHAR: As I said, I really didn`t -- I don`t think I got it until you guys sat here.

SIMMONS: That`s some stuff I got to deal with outside.

BEHAR: You do. But in the meantime, this show`s on the air. "Family Jewels," Tuesday nights on A&E. We`ll be right back.


BEHAR: The great Rita Moreno is a singer, dancer and actress who`s won an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar and a Tony. In her new TV-Land show "Happily Divorced" she plays the mother of Fran Drescher, who has just found out her husband of 18 years is gay. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Honey, do you think now is a good time to talk about how are we going to tell other people?

FRAN DRESCHER, ACTRESS: Oh, my god, we`re going to have to tell other people. My parents -- my mother is going to be devastated!

RITA MORENO, ACTRESS: We always thought he was gay.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He had beautiful cuticles.

DRESCHER: You knew he was gay and you never bothered to mention it to me?

RITA MORENO: We thought you knew.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We thought you knew.


BEHAR: Please welcome the lovely and talented Ms. Rita Moreno. So happy to have you here.

MORENO: It`s great to see you again. It`s been so long.

BEHAR: You know, that`s the truth -- I know. Well, we had lunch at the Carlisle -- about a couple of years ago when you were starring ...

MORENO: You said to me that I said something funny to you?

BEHAR: Well, I said -- you were talking about -- I said to you, Rita, you were talking about your life in the show. Why didn`t you talk about the affair you have with Marlon Brando?

MORENO: Oh, yeah.

BEHAR: And you said, oh, I`m going to do that in my one-woman show. And I said, well, when is that? You said, I`m going to do it when I`m 78.

MORENO: I`m 79.

BEHAR: Oh, well, you see -- you missed a year.

MORENO: Did I say that?

BEHAR: Yes, and I said, what a wonderful idea that somebody who doesn`t worry about time and just keep moving, and when I`m 78, I`ll do it then. And if I die before then, I won`t do it.

MORENO: There you go. You know, I remember being on -- I remember being on -- when I was doing "Carnal Knowledge," the movie with Jack Nicholson.


MORENO: And the scene that I had at the end was ...

BEHAR: People should -- you must Netflix that movie ...

MORENO: It`s extraordinary, really.

BEHAR: "Carnal Knowledge".

MORENO: But it is (inaudible), hooker, who`s trying to entice him into getting -- to put it gently, aroused.


MORENO: And he can`t because he`s such a better guy.


MORENO: And we did ten takes, 20 takes, and by the 30th take I`m thinking, I`m officially losing my mind. And then I started to think, I`m going to die on this hydraulic platform with, you know, going down, down, down. And I thought all that`s going to happen is that after I die at my funeral, all they`re going to talk about is what I was doing to Jack Nicholson, and that`s how I`m going to be known for the rest of my life. That was terrible.

BEHAR: But tell me just quickly. Because this is a short segment.


BEHAR: I read that he seduced you with his conga playing? Marlon Brando.

MORENO: Oh, I`m thought -- Jack Nicholson.

BEHAR: No, Marlon. He seduced you with his conga playing?

MORENO: Oh, honey, he didn`t need a conga drum.


MORENO: No, he just needed his own wonderful self. He was really a sexy guy.

BEHAR: In his heyday, he was hot.


BEHAR: "The Wild One."

MORENO: He was gorgeous.

BEHAR: Hello!

MORENO: He looked like a Roman coin. He really, really did.

BEHAR: Beautiful man.

MORENO: In profile. He was beautiful. And he was venal and lethal. And I talk about that in my one-woman show.


MORENO: It will come up.

BEHAR: But you`re so -- you know, you`re doing everything now. And you can see Rita on "Happily Divorced" Wednesday nights on TV-land. Thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.