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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Mitt Romney and Immigration; Jerry Sandusky Trial Continues
Aired June 18, 2012 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. It's 10:00 here on the East Coast.
And we begin tonight with breaking news. Republican Senator Marco Rubio is shelving his plan to introduce an alternative to the DREAM Act, which has stalled in Congress. Rubio has been mentioned as a possible running mate, obviously, for Mitt Romney.
His decision to shelf his DREAM Act alternative comes on the heels of President Obama's new policy giving young illegal immigrants a way to avoid deportation.
"Keeping Them Honest" tonight, we're asking where Mitt Romney, though, really stands on the new policy. The presumptive Republican nominee has slammed the move as flat-out pandering to the Latino vote not even five months ahead of the election.
And he's blasted President Obama for bypassing Congress, where the DREAM Act is stalled.
On CBS' "Face the Nation" yesterday, Romney bashed the president's end-run around Congress. And even though he was asked repeatedly, four times, in fact, he refused to say if he would repeal the order if he's elected in November.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Would you repeal this order if you became president?
MITT ROMNEY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, let's step back and look at the issue.
QUESTION: What would you do about it?
ROMNEY: Well, as you know, he was president for the last three- and-a-half years, did nothing on immigration.
QUESTION: But would you repeal this?
ROMNEY: Well, it would be overtaken by events, if you will, by virtue of my putting in place a long-term solution with legislation which creates law that relates to these individuals such that they know what their setting is going to be.
ROMNEY: ... not just for the term of a president, but on a permanent basis.
QUESTION: Would you leave this in place while you worked out a long-term solution or would you just repeal it?
ROMNEY: We will look at that setting as we reach that.
But my anticipation is I would come into office and say we need to get this done on a long-term basis, not this kind of a stopgap measure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, during the rest of the interview, Romney really didn't offer any specifics on what kind of long-term solution he has in mind.
"Keeping Them Honest" that's a far cry from the thick of the primary season when Romney wasn't hedging on specifics and repeatedly took a pretty hard line on immigration issues. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROMNEY: The question is, if I were elected and Congress were to pass the DREAM Act, would I veto it, and the answer is yes.
I think we have to follow the law and insist those who come here illegally ultimately return home, apply, and get in line with everyone else.
Return home and get in line, at the back of the line, with everybody else that wants to come here. Get in the same line, at the back of the line. I want people to get in line legally.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, immigration obviously could be a big issue in the November elections. In a recent NBC/"Wall Street Journal"/Telemundo poll, President Obama had a 34-point lead among Latino voters, 61 percent to Romney's 27 percent.
Some of Romney's key surrogates believe he will need around 40 percent of the Latino vote to have a shot at winning. Now, both candidates are scheduled to speak this week at the annual meeting of a major Hispanic organization, the National Association of Latino Elected and Appointed Officials. As we said, Romney's accusing President Obama of playing politics and says the timing of his new immigration policy speaks for itself.
We will let you decide for yourself, but "Keeping Them Honest," Romney's refusal to say if he will overturn the new policy is also raising some eyebrows for the very same reason, the timing.
We asked the Romney campaign to make someone available to come on the program tonight to discuss it. They declined.
Joining me now, political contributor and former White House press president George W. Bush Ari Fleischer, also Maria Cardona, Democratic strategist and former adviser to Hillary Clinton's 2008 presidential campaign.
So, Ari, I certainly understand the criticism from Romney that what President Obama did is about politics. Couldn't you make the same argument about Romney's refusal to say whether or not he would repeal this? Isn't that about politics?
ARI FLEISCHER, FORMER GEORGE W. BUSH WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Yes.
Anderson, both positions have a lot of politics in them. I think they both have a good dose of substance in them too. And as anybody's who followed the immigration debate going back to the years of Ronald Reagan knows, this issue is full of both extraordinarily complicated substance and politics.
It's also full of deep-seated emotion on both sides. And I come at it from the point of view of a Bush Republican who actually tried to do something in a comprehensive way in Congress when President Bush tried to get immigration reform enacted.
A lot of well-meaning people love this country and want to come to this country. I'm the son of an immigrant. By the same token, we're a nation that pays a lot of homage to the rule of law. That's why this is such a complicated issue.
COOPER: Maria, most Republicans, including Mitt Romney, have reacted and are still reacting very carefully to the president's announcement. Romney has just said he disagrees with the president's methods, not his goals. Is there a chance the president won't be able to draw the contrast that he might have been hoping to?
MARIA CARDONA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Oh, no, there's no chance of that, Anderson.
He's already drawn the contrast, which is why you see the majority of Latino voters even before this announcement are supporting President Obama on this. And, look, this is the problem with Mitt Romney. This is the box that he has painted himself into because of what you just ran, what he has said during the primaries in order to shore up his conservative base that he would veto the DREAM Act. His long-term solution if we're to listen to his words during the primary would be for all undocumented immigrants to self-deport.
Those are his words. He said that the draconian Arizona SB-1070 law should be a model for the nation. But he also understands -- and you mentioned this as well -- that he can't get to the White House with at least 40 percent of the Hispanic vote. And there's no chance that he's going to be able to get anywhere near that if he doesn't soften his stance on immigration.
But that's going to be difficult for him because then his conservative base will be all up in arms.
COOPER: Ari, Latino voters vote on more than just immigration issues, but do you see a problem with Romney's outreach to Latino voters?
FLEISCHER: Well, I think Republicans have a problem with Hispanic voters, just as Democrats have a problem with white voters, Democrats have a problem with senior citizens.
If there were no gaps in politics, every race would end up tied. Both parties have these issues with different constituencies. You can make the case of course if President Obama doesn't get more than 60 percent of the Hispanic vote, he can't win, and so therefore he's doing everything he can to appeal, to try to rev up his numbers on a very political basis.
And of course, what the president did is very thin. It's not the DREAM Act. If the DREAM Act is a full act, this is just a nap. This barely touches all the broad measures that the DREAM Act gets into. This just says he's going to stop the administration from deporting children. That's all he really is doing in this change that he's making.
And there's also a lot of basis for whether or not the administration even has the legality to be able to do this. The Bush administration looked at doing it. And we concluded we did not have the legal authority from the executive branch to do it.
COOPER: Ari, I just want to -- Gloria Borger is joining us on the phone with this breaking news about Marco Rubio.
Gloria, what do you make of this? Because now we had been told for a long time that Marco Rubio was working on kind of an alternative to the DREAM Act that would be appealing to Republicans. We're now hearing he's backed away from that.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.
Look, I think one of the reasons that the White House and the administration did what it did is because Marco Rubio had not proposed a piece of legislation that everyone kind of thought was forthcoming.
And the fact that he hadn't proposed it allowed the White House, there was just a sort of big hole there, allowed the White House to kind of drive a Mack truck right through it and to do what the president did.
I think what Rubio had proposed, if he decided to go ahead, would have become a real litmus test within the Republican Party. If he doesn't propose anything, it allows them to say, you know what, the president is wrong on the process. What he's doing might well be overstepping his constitutional bounds and allows them to kind of remain vague on the substance of what the president has proposed until after the election.
If Rubio were to propose a specific piece of legislation, you would be dividing conservatives in the Republican Party on the one side and people like Marco Rubio who were a little bit more liberal on immigration issues on the other side. So I think they decided to take a pass. COOPER: Right. I want to get a reading from Ari and Maria.
Ari, how do you read this from Rubio?
FLEISCHER: Yes, I spent a lot of today talking to Senator Rubio's staff actually.
And I think it's a little bit different from what Gloria said. Their view is what the president did blew up any chance of getting any type of thing, any type of bipartisan action together on Capitol Hill, that the president in taking executive action and just doing such a narrow slice of has poisoned the well. Senator Rubio I think himself used those exact words.
But he's been up front about it today saying that this damaged the chances of Congress getting anything done. I think that's arguable. The administration has its point of view. I still think they have a legal constitutional problem, the administration. That's a separate issue. But I think there's more to it than what Gloria indicated.
CARDONA: I actually think that Marco Rubio realized that he didn't have the support that he needed within his own Republican Party.
Let's remember that Speaker Boehner when he first heard about Marco Rubio's idea, and it was just an idea, he never put anything on paper, he said very clearly that it would be very difficult to get anything like that, like that proposal through Congress right now.
But I also just want to say Republicans will obviously criticize the president to say that this was strictly political. Why didn't he do anything before now?
The fact is that he has tried to do something before now. He's always talked about trying to fix the immigration system. Let's remember that in 2010 he pushed very hard to try to pass the DREAM Act. The majority of Democrats supported him and voted for it. He was only able to get three Republicans to vote for it.
Right now, there are 11 Republican senators in Congress who just a few short years ago supported comprehensive immigration reform. Not one has been able to step forward and say, I support it now. So that's the reality of it. And that's why they're in trouble with Latino voters.
COOPER: We're also joined -- Jessica Yellin is joining us on the phone.
I think, Jessica, you have just gotten off the phone with a Rubio aide, is that correct?
JESSICA YELLIN, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson. I have. And the aide in Rubio's office says the reason the senator has pulled the legislation -- well, it not even accurate to say pulled the legislation because he never really introduced it, but they have been working behind the scenes to try to craft some kind of legislation that they would have introduced.
And they say it's not going to happen now at this time because they thought there was momentum to consider their approach ahead of summer vacation when there were kids who were going to go back to school in the fall and they were facing deportation before school this fall. And they thought there was a sense of urgency to pass this before school began.
And they say -- this is from Rubio's perspective -- now that the president has introduced this new executive move, that there's no longer that sense of urgency, and that means that they're not going to reach consensus on anything. There's a hardening of positions. And nothing on this will be passed before the election. That's the Rubio position.
I can tell you, covering the White House, that they would have a very different perspective on this and they would likely say that there was not likely to be a consensus on this measure anyway. But that's the latest update from Rubio land.
COOPER: All right, Ari, I know you wanted to say something.
FLEISCHER: Well, the only point I was going to make, Anderson, this underscores how difficult an issue this is.
When President Obama try to do it -- and he essentially tried to build a center. The center couldn't hold. It couldn't hold because of opposition from conservative Republicans and also from a lot of the AFL-CIO Democrats who don't want to have an injection of labor come into this country. They view that as competition to keep wages down.
There really is -- this is one of the most complicated issues in government. President Obama did though run on a promise that in his first year he would introduce a comprehensive -- fundamental to deal with immigration reform. He never followed up on it.
What we're dealing now is with a very narrow slice. Nobody is even talking full immigration reform anymore.
CARDONA: But let's remember that when he came into office, he had to deal with, frankly, trying to rescue this economy from a second Great Depression.
And, by the way, there was already legislation called the McCain- Kennedy bill that this president was trying to push. And, again, I go back to 11 senators who supported that in the...
FLEISCHER: Which was George Bush's bill.
CARDONA: Exactly, absolutely.
CARDONA: One of the best things that he ever did, one of the things that I agreed with him on. But no other Republicans -- because President Obama was president and their focus was to make sure he was a one-term president, not to solve our great problems like immigration, they turned their back on the American people and on this president.
FLEISCHER: It's both sides. It's both sides. You can't blame one party.
CARDONA: The AFL-CIO came around. They were part of the big coalition that supported comprehensive immigration reform. They came around. Conservative Republicans have never come around on this.
FLEISCHER: Only with all the exemptions built in that the AFL- CIO asked for.
CARDONA: But they came around. The conservative Republicans have never come around on this and they will never support comprehensive immigration reform. And that's why Republicans have a problem with Latino voters.
COOPER: We're going to leave it there.
Maria Cardona, appreciate it, Ari Fleischer.
Jessica Yellin, Gloria Borger, appreciate you calling in on the breaking news.
Let us know what you think. Follow me on Twitter @AndersonCooper. Let's tweet about this right now.
A new chapter in the child sex abuse trial of Jerry Sandusky. The prosecutor actually rested its case today. We thought it was going to happen Friday, but it happened today. As defense attorneys called their first witnesses, it could be Sandusky's own words making their job a lot more difficult -- the surprising and pretty shocking video next on 360.
COOPER: In "Crime & Punishment" tonight, prosecutors in the Jerry Sandusky trial rested their case today. But that does not mean they're done bringing evidence against the former Penn State assistant football coach. NBC revealing today a member of the prosecution team recently reached out to the network asking its lawyers to re-authenticate a full unedited transcript of Bob Costas' interview from last November. That interview includes potentially damaging clips like this one that actually never made air. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB COSTAS, NBC SPORTS: So it's entirely possible that you could have helped young boy A in some way that was not objectionable while horribly taking advantage of young boy B, C, D and E? Isn't that possible?
JERRY SANDUSKY, DEFENDANT: Well, you might think that, I don't know, in terms of my relationship with so many, many young people.
I would guess that there are many young people who would come forward, many more young people who would come forward and say that my methods and what I had done for them made a very positive impact on their life. And I didn't go around seeking out every young person for sexual needs that I have helped.
There are many that I didn't have -- I hardly had any contact with who I have helped in many, many ways.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: This could complicate the job for Sandusky's attorneys, who called their first witness today. Now, the judge telling jurors today he expects the defense to finish presenting their case on Wednesday.
Jason Carroll was in court today. I spoke to him about today's testimony.
So, Jason, this is the first time we have heard from one the accuser's moms in court. And she said that her son never spoke to her of the alleged abuse. If that's true, it falls in step with what a lot of the other accusers have testified, right?
JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It certainly does, Anderson.
What we have seen throughout this trial so far is this pattern of accusers saying that they did not want to talk about these allegations, not to their friends, not to their family.
And the mother of accuser number nine, when she took the stand, you got the overwhelming sense of the guilt that she felt over what allegedly happened with her son. She talked about how her son repeatedly said he did not want to go over Jerry Sandusky's house, how she said that he -- how she basically forced him to go over there because of Jerry Sandusky's upstanding reputation in the community.
She even said to this day, Anderson, she still has not spoken to her son about the allegations. And she talked about them on the stand, saying -- quote -- "I just didn't really want to hear. I just knew it would be tough for him to tell me." She was in tears when she described this. And it was definitely one of the most emotional parts of the testimony today.
COOPER: And the defense began presenting their case. They put a couple character witnesses on the stand. Were they at all able to call into question any of the allegations of abuse?
CARROLL: Not today.
Perhaps we will see some of that tomorrow. Basically, there were several character witnesses who were called. One is a former Second Mile participant. Second Mile, of course, is the organization that Jerry Sandusky founded to help young boys.
Also, two former Penn State football coaches who talked very much about this culture of showering with boys -- as you know, Jerry Sandusky has admitted to showering with young boys on several occasions. Two of these former coaches talked about this idea of coaches showering in locker rooms.
They said sometimes when they were there, young boys were there. They did not think it was anything out of the normal. One of the former coaches when asked about Jerry Sandusky's character said -- quote -- "I will wait for the full story. I think he's a great guy" -- this coming from Booker Brooks, again, a former assistant coach at Penn State.
And just a final note about Mr. Brooks. We were told by Mr. Brooks -- he told CNN after testifying that he was just chosen to testify in Jerry's defense, Jerry Sandusky's defense, just this past Monday, so that just gives you a sense of how quickly the defense is still putting together its case.
COOPER: Interesting. Jason, appreciate it.
So what can we expect as Jerry Sandusky's defense team begins to lay out their case? How much of a case do they really have?
Let's bring in former L.A. Deputy district attorney Marcia Clark. She's the author of the book "Guilt by Degrees." Also with us, criminal defense attorney Mark Geragos and Dr. Louis Kraus, the chief of child and adolescent psychiatry at Rush University Medical Center and a delegate for child psychiatry to the American Medical Association.
Mark, so these two former Penn State coaches saying it wasn't at all uncommon to see a coach showering with young boys, that many of the coaches did that. Adult males did the same thing. This really isn't a legal question. But I have been on teams in college. I have never heard anyone on the planet do that before. Does that really sound like a good defense to you?
MARK GERAGOS, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, actually, I could make some jokes, but I won't. The thing that I like about it, remember who they're speaking to. Their audience is not me in Los Angeles or you in New York. Their audience are 12 jurors, six or seven of which have Penn State connections, strong Penn State connections. They start parading witnesses, especially character witnesses, who have a Penn State connection, to say this is what goes on. It's not something out of the ordinary.
And I'm going to tell you something. Before people say this is a complete slam-dunk for the prosecution, understand, from the defense standpoint, all they're looking for is one or two jurors who have a reasonable doubt. You start to get character witnesses on there.
And, frankly, contrary to what the report was, character evidence can be very persuasive, because you get a jury instruction that says the character evidence alone can provide reasonable doubt. And so you start to get people who are part of the Penn State community. The jurors are part of that Penn State community. And you may start to see the building blocks to reasonable doubt.
COOPER: Interesting. That's why we have a defense attorney on the panel.
Marcia, do you agree with that?
MARCIA CLARK, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Of course not.
CLARK: As a matter of fact, I have heard other people say that they were criticizing the prosecution for leaving these witnesses on, the witnesses that have contact, are associated with Penn State, because they feel that they will be sympathetic to Sandusky.
They will actually want to kind of cover their own communal behinds by acquitting him. I don't think that's the case. I think they're actually going to show we take care of our own business here. We're not going to be swayed by this. We're not impressed with this defense. And we're not going to be -- you cannot lean on our loyalty to Penn State.
I think that if this is true that coaches at Penn State routinely shower with young boys, Penn State is about to see a huge drop in enrollment. But be that as it may, I don't think that these jurors are going to be impressed by this defense.
GERAGOS: Marcia -- you know, one of the things, Marcia, that I think, there is this residual feeling that I -- at least I get from my 30,000-foot view that there's a lot of people in that Penn State community who feel a lot of resentment about outsiders coming in there, painting them with a broad brush, basically killing Joe Paterno.
And I'm not so sure that they're not -- the defense isn't plugging into that.
GERAGOS: So I take the opposite view.
COOPER: I want to bring in Dr. Kraus on this.
Dr. Kraus, the defense is expected to call in an expert witness to testify Sandusky may have histrionic personality disorder, HPD. I had never heard of this before. Has this ever been linked to sexual abuse or pedophilia?
DR. LOUIS KRAUS, RUSH UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Not that I'm aware of.
Histrionic personality disorder has certain character structures to it, over-emotionality, problematic relationship, some issues with sexuality, typically with age-appropriate peers. There is no connection that I'm aware of in regards to that diagnosis and sociopathic, criminal behavior, pedophilia, or anything related to that.
COOPER: You also obviously have not examined Sandusky personally, but does it make sense to you that if he had this thing, HPD, that he'd been able to maintain this job, have a long successful coaching career, be married to the same woman for decades and decades? Does it fit his profile?
With any type of moderate to severe character pathology, you are not just going to see it applied to one issue in your life. You are going to see it pervasive over everything. So you wouldn't expect if somebody has problematic relationships, superficial sorts of relationships, that in one area of their life, they can handle it perfectly, but in some other areas, it's completely pathologic.
That wouldn't be consistent with, say, for example, a histrionic personality disorder.
COOPER: Mark, how damaging do you think this NBC transcript is of this unedited -- of this portion that apparently never aired with Bob Costas?
Because I'm just looking at the transcript again. Sandusky says at the end of his kind of long, rambling answer, he says, "And I didn't go around seeking out every young person for sexual needs that I have helped. There are many that I didn't have" -- and then he pauses -- "I hardly had any contact with who I have helped in many, many ways."
Did he do himself any favors by giving this interview?
GERAGOS: No, not at all.
And that's precisely why if you're the defense lawyer the last thing you want to do is put him on. We talked about last Friday, however, it would not surprise me if he does take the stand in this case because he's the one who ultimately makes that decision, no matter what his lawyer tells him.
And you saw in the jury selection where he was keeping somebody on that Joe wanted to excuse, and then he said, no, I think he can be fair.
And to the defense's credit, the -- I don't think they're using this disorder to say that's what caused pedophilia or this -- some kind of confess and avoid. What they're doing is trying to explain what is at least seemingly a potentially damaging piece of evidence, which are these letters.
And they're trying to say, look, I know these letters look bad, but you don't understand what's really going on here is he has this disorder which lets him be flamboyant or exaggerated or have this kind of bizarre idea of expressing himself. They're not saying for a second, at least the -- unless they get some of that other stuff on -- that, yes, I did it, but this is what made me do it. This isn't the Twinkie defense.
Marcia, do you think getting -- if they add in this interview, do you think that continues to be very damaging? I see that interview as damaging, but maybe I'm interpreting it harshly.
CLARK: No -- I have to say, Anderson, when you just played it now, I was -- oh, my God. It sounds implicitly like he's saying, I don't run after every child for sexual favors, just some of them. So, you know, therefore I'm not a pedophile?
COOPER: Why that got edited out, by the way -- why that got edited out of the original interview, I don't know. But it seems to be a pretty blockbuster piece of tape.
COOPER: We got to leave it there. We're out of time. Marcia Clark, Mark Geragos, Dr. Louis Kraus, appreciate all of you being on. Thank you. Really interesting discussion.
We have more breaking news tonight. Roger Clemens, used to big wins on the baseball field, today, he may have just scored the biggest victory of his life in a courtroom, jurors finding him not guilty on all six counts of lying about steroids to Congress. So what does today's verdict really say about the case? We will take a closer look with Jeff Toobin next.
COOPER: Did George Zimmerman and his wife talk in code about their finances after he was accused murdering Trayvon Martin? What the jailhouse phone transcripts show -- when we continue.
COOPER: Breaking news now in the federal perjury trial of baseball great Roger Clemens. The seven-time Cy Young Award winner celebrating his freedom tonight after jurors found him not guilty on all six counts of lying to Congress during the Major League steroid investigation. After an eight-week trial, a tearful Clemens struggled to thank all those who stuck with him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGER CLEMENS, FORMER MAJOR LEAGUE PITCHER: And really, all the -- all you media guys that know me and followed my career.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Way to go, Rocket.
CLEMENS: I put a lot of hard work into that career. And so again, I appreciate my teammates that came in, all the e-mails and phone calls.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, Roger Clemens was never charged with taking performance-enhancing drugs, but allegations he used banned substances were front and center throughout the trial, thanks to statements he made to Congress back in 2008.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can I look at my two children with a straight face and tell them that you, Roger Clemens, have played -- have always played the game with honesty and integrity?
CLEMENS: Yes, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And there would be no -- no doubt that that's true?
CLEMENS: Without a question. I took no short cuts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, today's verdict ends the second trial for Clemens and is a big blow, obviously, for federal prosecutors. Just over a year ago, a judge declared a mistrial after they showed inadmissible evidence in court.
Let's take a closer look at what exactly today's verdict means. We're joined by senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin.
So what about this? What happened?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I think there were a couple of things. First of all, look at the record of steroids prosecutions. They have been mostly, not entirely, but mostly a failure. Barry Bonds. Acquitted on all but one charge. And he was sentenced to 30 days of home detention. I mean, essentially less than a slap on the wrist.
COOPER: They stopped the investigation of Lance Armstrong.
TOOBIN: Armstrong, nothing at all. Clemens, a total acquittal. I think jurors are not sure this belongs in federal court. You know, whether this kind of policing of professional sports is something for a federal criminal case.
COOPER: It also was about lying to Congress, but is lying to Congress always a crime?
TOOBIN: Not necessarily. And one of the things that I thought Rusty Hardin, the attorney for Clemens, did very artfully, is he sort of put Congress on trial. And he said, look, Congress was just having, you know, a spectacle. They brought these people in. They weren't intending to do any legislation about this. They just wanted a show. He didn't really say that Clemens was entitled to lie to him but it's part of the theme -- why are they making such a big deal out of this?
COOPER: And it's only, what, a crime to lie to Congress if they are actually going to do legislation?
TOOBIN: Right, if it's what they call a material matter, which is broadly defined. But I thought what Hardin did was he wasn't talking about the law specifically. He was basically saying, look, Congress was just putting on a show. They didn't care. They just wanted Clemens to come up there. They weren't planning to do anything with the testimony.
And, you know, there was -- he had a point there. I mean, Congress really wasn't -- there was a lot of that stuff going on in Congress. But the politicians are not famous for telling the truth.
Clemens being maybe less than honest in front of Congress, it was sort of part of the whole "no big deal" defense.
COOPER: So this is it. No more trials?
TOOBIN: No more trials. He also had a terrible lead -- lead prosecution witness, Brian McNamee, who you know, admitted lying before. I mean, it was a -- it was not a great case. But this is a real blow to the Justice Department.
COOPER: And a real victory for Clemens. Jeff Toobin, thanks very much.
A lot more we're following tonight. Isha is back with a "360 Bulletin" -- Isha.
SESAY: Anderson, Senator John McCain is calling for the U.S. military to lead a coalition to help Syrian opposition fighters, seen here in battle. Three of the top four vote-getters in Sunday's parliamentary elections in Greece will meet Tuesday at the presidential palace. The former coalition government. That's according to an official with the Socialist Party Council (ph), which placed third in the vote. The center-right New Democracy Party took first place.
And jailhouse transcripts released today showed George Zimmerman and his wife talked on the phone about their finances, allegedly in code. Zimmerman's bond in the Trayvon Martin case was revoked when the judge learned of the phone calls -- Anderson.
COOPER: Isha, thanks.
Up next, allegations of a widespread sex abuse cover-up in an ultraorthodox Jewish part of the United States. Also allegations that the veteran district attorney was actually part of the problem. Critics are saying that he's protecting the suspected molesters so he can stay in office. D.A. says no way. Gary Tuchman with the discovery when we continue.
COOPER: New concerns about an alleged epidemic of sex abuse being covered up in New York's ultraorthodox Hasidic Jewish community. It's a sect where ancient traditions collide with the modern world. It's also a powerful voting bloc for Brooklyn politicians. That includes a veteran district attorney who some say is willing to sacrifice justice for the young victims to win the support of powerful rabbis.
Gary Tuchman investigates.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The ultraorthodox are a small percentage of Jews as a whole. But Brooklyn, New York, with tens of thousands of orthodox views, is the largest such population outside of Israel. One of them is Rabbi Nuchem Rosenberg.
(on camera) So your Judaism is as strong as ever?
RABBI NUCHEM ROSENBERG, BROOKLYN RESIDENT: Yes, it is.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): But Rabbi Rosenberg is troubled.
(on camera) You're saying that you believe that one out of five children in your community has been molested?
ROSENBERG: Yes. We believe that. We know that.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Allegations of a widespread sex abuse cover-up in this community has led Rabbi Rosenberg to launch a hotline for victims and their families.
But if you think everyone would be thanking him for his efforts, you'd be wrong. He's now subjected to things like this. Posters plastered around the community with his face on a snake with the words "corrupt trader" spelled out in Hebrew.
(on camera) So you say you received death threats because of this?
ROSENBERG: Death threats. On daily basis.
TUCHMAN: The ultraorthodox Jewish world is very insular. In many ways, life is lived like it was many centuries ago. Back then there was deep distrust of the outside world. And that's the case today.
The problem with cutting yourself off from people like police is that child molesters and other scoundrels often take advantage.
(voice-over) Because of the distrust of outsiders, people in this community generally report alleged crimes to the religious authorities, not to police, and will almost never talk to a stranger on camera.
(on camera) Sir, can I ask you a quick question? I'm with CNN. We're doing a story about the community. If there's a crime...
I'm with CNN. We're doing a story about the community.
(voice-over) And when they do talk, you're likely to hear something like this.
(on camera) Do you think child molestations happen in this neighborhood?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
TUCHMAN: Not at all?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not at all.
TUCHMAN: So when you hear about things like that happening, you don't think they're true?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's not true.
TUCHMAN: You think people are making it up?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. In this neighborhood, cannot happen.
TUCHMAN: Why do you think that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never happen.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): Don't tell that to Pearl Engelman, a faithful member of the community who says her son Joel, one of her seven children, was molested by a school official, starting when he was 8 years old.
PEARL ENGELMAN, MOTHER: It pains me. It pains me terribly.
TUCHMAN: She and her husband never knew about it while it was going on. She told leaders in the community when she found out. But for the most part, she says, it was kept quiet.
And almost 20 years later, it's too late to go to police. The statute of limitations has expired.
ENGELMAN: The cover-up is what devastates me. Because we're not the kind of people to cover this up. We stand for the truth. We stand for -- for justice.
TUCHMAN: Her son, now 27, has left the community. So has this man, Luzer Twersky, who says he was molested for years by a tutor.
(on camera) And you were how old?
LUZER TWERSKY, FORMER MEMBER OF HASIDIC COMMUNITY: I was 9.
TUCHMAN: He was how old?
TWERSKY: Probably in his late 20s, mid-20s.
TUCHMAN: And that's the man who molested you?
TUCHMAN (voice-over): One would presume that Brooklyn's district attorney and his chief of sex crimes would be all over these allegations. And indeed, they say they are.
RHONNIE JAUS, BROOKLYN SEX CRIMES PROSECUTOR: Anytime we have a single case, it's very serious to us.
CHARLES HYNES, D.A.: They know exactly what I'm doing when I'm prosecuting people from their community. They know the people we send to jail.
TUCHMAN: But disturbingly, the people you met in this story, as well as others, believe 22-year veteran D.A. Charles Hynes is part of the problem. They say this Catholic D.A. protects suspected ultraorthodox Jewish molesters so he can stay in office.
ROSENBERG: Well, this is a bloc vote. When the rabbis say vote for Charles Hynes there will be nobody here that will not vote for Charles Hynes.
ENGELMAN: He cares about his election. He cares about staying in -- as district attorney. He doesn't care about the victims.
TUCHMAN: There was anger that Charles Hynes does not release names of suspected molesters in the ultraorthodox community. Releasing suspect's names is standard procedure at prosecutors' offices all over the United States.
(on camera) Your position is that you don't release the names of accused orthodox Jewish suspects?
TUCHMAN: And why is that?
HYNES: Because in releasing the names, within days, magically, they find the name of the victim. And then the intimidation starts. By the way...
TUCHMAN: Do you do that with any other community?
HYNES: No, no, I mean, if the Amish people were living here, I suppose I'd have the same practice.
TUCHMAN: Not the Roman -- not the Roman Catholic church?
HYNES: No, there's never been any allegations of intimidation by Catholic priests.
TUCHMAN: But don't you see that some could say that you're trying to curry favor with a very important voting bloc group for you?
HYNES: Again, I show an odd way of showing my gratitude with all of the cases I have brought.
TUCHMAN (voice-over): The D.A. says that the last few years, he's been able to substantially increase arrests after starting a special program to reach out to victims and convince them to talk to outside authorities.
Pearl Engelman doesn't believe much of what the D.A. says but notably admits she, too, did not tell the police when she found out her son had been molested.
ENGELMAN: It didn't even enter my mind.
TUCHMAN (on camera): How come?
ENGELMAN: We don't go to the police. We take -- we take care of things in the community itself.
TUCHMAN: Taking care of the community at the expense, it seems, of the victims.
COOPER: It's an incredible statistic. One in five, potentially, kids have been abused in that community, if that's true, and that's unbelievable. Has there been an increase in arrests since the D.A. started withholding names?
TUCHMAN: Well, the D.A. has been in office more than two decades, 22 years. And he admits for the first 19 of those years, there were very few arrests. And he says over the last three they've had 101 arrests. Now, is that a big number? I don't know. How many more people are out there. Is that because he's holding the names? Don't know the answer to that either. But I do know that the D.A. has just made a decision that he will release the names of people arrested if the victims in his or her family wants the names to be released. But it's a tough onus to put on victims to make that kind of decision in that community where it's so insular.
COOPER: Right. It's fascinating. Gary Tuchman, appreciate it. We'll continue to follow it.
Coming up, a porn actor who's accused of killing and dismembering a university student in Montreal, mailing body parts to politicians, he's back in Canada tonight. Details ahead.
COOPER: More than 1,700 firefighters working on a massive wildfire in Colorado, but the weather is not helping matters. Five neighborhoods outside of Ft. Collins are under mandatory evacuation orders.
The High Park Fire continues to burn. It has scorched almost 59,000 acres so far, destroyed at least 181 homes. It's about 50 percent contained.
Meteorologist Chad Myers joins us now. Chad, what's the latest?
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Hard to keep containment, Anderson, when you have wind gusts almost 60 miles per hour. That was Wyoming. But wind gusts right there along the fire line yesterday, 52 miles per hour. Today, the biggest one I can find is 31 miles per hour. That's no picnic anyway.
Rain chances for today low. And you know what? That's actually a good thing. We don't really want rain here along the fire line, because when rain comes, lightning comes, too. We'll show you a picture of what that lightning looks like here in a second.
Almost the entire southwestern half of the country in a drought. The drought killing trees. Go look up Rocky Mountain Pine Beetle. Killing almost half the number of trees in this area now that the fires are.
And here's what happens when we get lightning in the mountains. You get rain, you get the thunderstorm, you get all the rain here, and all of a sudden, one lightning bolt, Anderson, comes off to the side, hilts a tree, and it catches that tree on fire. That's what caused this fire, one lightning strike.
COOPER: Yes. Amazing. Chad, thanks very much.
A lot more happening tonight. Isha is back with a "360 News & Business Bulletin" -- Isha.
SESAY: Anderson, Egypt's military council has issued an interim constitutional decree, giving itself sweeping legislative and budgetary powers. The move came at the end of a two-day presidential runoff election and effectively strips the office of power.
Mohamed Morsi, an Islamist backed by the Muslim Brotherhood, is declaring victory, though his opponent, Egypt's former prime minister -- prime minister, has not conceded.
A Canadian porn actor suspected of killing and dismembering a university student in Montreal has returned to his home country aboard a military plane. Luka Rocco Magnotta was arrested in Germany earlier this month.
The company that powers many Facebook apps that detect and recognize faces in photos has been acquired by Facebook for an undisclosed sum. Face.com broke the news, naturally, on its blog.
And Anderson, Imperial Beach, California, near San Diego went to the dogs over the weekend. Fifty dogs competed in an annual surfing competition. And according to CNN i-Reporters, several Guinness world records may have been set, including -- I know you're excited -- the most dogs surfing on one board. That's 14 pooches riding the wave.
COOPER: Wow. I did not even know that was a record category. Who knew?
SESAY: There are some seriously chilled-out looking doggies.
COOPER: Yes. All right. Isha, thanks.
Coming up, what constitutes a sandwich emergency? "The RidicuList" is next.
COOPER: Hey, time now for "The RidicuList." And tonight, we're adding a code red top priority full-blown sandwich emergency. In Connecticut, a gentleman went to a place called the Grateful Deli to get his favorite sandwich. But something went a-rye -- thank you -- and he ended up using the phone at the deli to call 911.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm at Grateful Deli. I specifically asked for a little turkey and a little ham, a lot of cheese, a lot of mayonnaise, and they're giving me a hard time. I was wondering if you could just stop by and just -- I was just wondering if you could...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're calling 911 because you don't like the way that they're making your sandwich?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So then don't buy it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Calling 911 because your sandwich is focacciaed up. Going out on a limb and saying that may have been a slight over- reaction to the situation.
But there are people all over this great land of ours who seem to have similarly low thresholds for what constitutes an emergency. Here's one from Wisconsin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you need Thiensville Police Department for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I'm eating at this restaurant. I just asked for some more fish. They gave me four pieces.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they refuse to give me any more fish. And it's right out on the sign in front of the building, all-you-can- eat Friday fish fry.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Cut off at the all-you-can-eat fish fry. What do you want the police to do about it? Charge the restaurant with battery?
Somebody get Erik Estrada to that fish fry, because clearly this is a job for "CHiPs."
Then there was the guy in Illinois who called 911 not once, not twice, but five times, because his iPhone wasn't working.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have an emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I'm trying -- they told me to get the iPhone enabled.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, what's your address, and we can have an officer come out and help you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's really a stupid response.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you give us your address, we can have an officer come out, and maybe he can help you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He can't help me.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because they'll shoot me with a gun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh. Have you been drinking tonight, sir?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I'm just not very smart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I agree with that. I actually think the not-very-smart phone is a money-making idea.
Of course, no roundup of nonemergency emergency calls would be complete without the cream of the crop, the police officer in Michigan who called 911 because he and his wife were stoned to bejeezus on pot brownies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we're dying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How much did you guys have?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. We made brownies, and I think we're dead. I really do.
Time is going by really, really, really, really slow. What's the score on the Red Wings game?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Just to review, we've got pot brownies, a malfunctioning phone, an inadequate amount of fried fish, and some kind of easy-on- the-meat, heavy-on-the-mayo situation. Will 911 wonders never cease?
That's it for us. Thanks for watching. "ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT" starts now.