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ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
Prisoner Swapped For Bergdahl Has Contacted Militants; Awaiting Word on Fate of Hostages; Deadline Passes to Save Hostages; CDC: Deadly Virus Spreads to 14 States
Aired January 29, 2015 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Next breaking news, sources telling our Barbara Starr one of the Taliban detainees released and exchange for Bowe Bergdahl has attempted to return to militant activity. The Pentagon spokesman answers our questions, next.
And the measles outbreak sweeping across America. One father's desperate fight against the growing anti-vaccine move movement. And new details about what happens as Air Asia Flight 8501 crash. We're going to go inside the cockpit. Let's go OUTFRONT.
Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett and OUTFRONT tonight, the breaking news. We have learned that at least one of the five Taliban detainees traded for Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl may have returned to militant activities in Qatar. The five men were released in Guantanamo Bay in exchange for Bergdahl last summer. Bergdahl had been held captive in Afghanistan for five years after leaving his post in June 2009. The release of the so-called Taliban five has been incredibly controversial to the Obama administration. The President says, he received assurances from the Qatari government that the five wouldn't pose a threat to the United States and wouldn't leave the country of Qatar for a year. All of this comes as the White House is working towards closing Gitmo and releasing more prisoners. At the same time the army will soon decide whether charging Bergdahl for living his post of desertion makes sense. We'll speak to the Pentagon spokesman about this in just a moment.
But Barbara Starr broke this story. She's OUTFRONT tonight. And Barbara, you're getting new information right now about exactly what this detainee, former detainee might have been doing.
BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Erin. U.S. officials are saying that this detainee was engaging in communications that are not permissible under the conditions of their transfer to Qatar. What was he doing? He was making perhaps phone calls, perhaps online communications. But he was attempting to communicate with Taliban associated back in Afghanistan, Pakistan area. So, this is an attempt to return to militancy. That raised alarms in the U.S. intelligence community. The good news is, officials say they caught it very quickly because they conduct classified surveillance of these five detainees communication. They intercept, they monitor everything that they are doing in the communications arena so they caught it very quickly. Now they are watching all five of them even more closely than they were although they were watching them very closely trying to keep track, trying to see what they may be doing. An internal debate inside the U.S. intelligence community. Did this pose a direct threat? Some say no. Some say not sure yet. They're still looking at it -- Erin.
BURNETT: And Barbara, look, this isn't the first Gitmo detainee to return to the battlefield. We know, I mean, the numbers are, you know, but 12 to 15 percent is one solid estimate out there. But this one is extremely significant. Because this deal in and of itself was significant. The United States says it does not negotiate with groups like this. That they do not do these sorts of things. But they did and they said because this was an American prisoner of war that they were exchanging for.
STARR: This is one of, you're absolutely right, this was one of the most politically charged events that the U.S. military, the White House has had to deal with. The deal that they cut to get Bowe Bergdahl a U.S. service member back home. You know, no one behind on the battlefield. But nonetheless you find on both sides of the aisle, republicans and democrats are like very concerned that this has set a precedent. It also comes at a time when the President is trying to ensure he can do something to get that population at Guantanamo still there down. And the way they are getting it down is by transferring more and more detainees to third party countries who promise that they will monitor them, that they will monitor any of their militant activities and keep, you know, make sure these people don't pose a threat. The question now, this one they caught it, they caught the communication, they're monitoring that. But as you point out this is not the first one, it won't be the last and it's a big question what many of these detainees may be up to -- Erin.
BURNETT: That's right. Thank you very much, Barbara Starr. And also tonight the latest deadline passed for two hostages held by ISIS. Their lives on the line. The deadline sunset today. They said deliver this woman Sajida al-Rishawi. She was a failed suicide bomber. She's now on death row in Jordan. They said do that or else a military pilot would die from Jordan. No word yet on his fate or the faith of a Japanese journalist who ISIS also wanted to exchange for that woman. Jim Sciutto is OUTFRONT.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The sunset deadline set by ISIS has passed. But the faiths of their captives, Jordanian pilot Moaz al-Kasasbeh and journalist Kenji Goto remain unknown. And crucially the terror group has yet to meet Jordan's demand for proof that their pilot is still alive.
MOHAMMAD AL-MOMANI, JORDANIAN GOVERNMENT SPOKESMAN: At this point we want to emphasize that we have asked for proof of life from Daesh. And we have not received anything as of yet. We need a proof of life.
SCIUTTO: Jordanian's deadline is the third that ISIS has set in a little more than a week. The wait began with this video showing two Japanese hostages Kenji Goto and Haruna Yukawa.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: To the prime minister of japan. SCIUTTO: And making the outrageous demand for a $200 million of
ransom from Japan within 72 hours or both captives would die. The first deadline passed last Friday and grim proof soon followed that one hostage had been executed. This image Mr. Goto holding what appeared to be a photo of Yukawa's head less beside. Goto however was spared.
LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: What it showed is they are reacting tactically. They no longer have a strategic plan. I think they have been hurt in terms of their leadership and they're just trying to get the best thing going.
SCIUTTO: Days later, a changed in demands. ISIS now seeking the release of this convicted female jihadists Sajida al-Rishawi imprison in Jordan for her wall in a 2005 suicide bombing. It killed dozens. And ISIS added a new threat. If the swap was not made the Jordanian pilot Lt. Kasasbeh would die along with Goto.
HERTLING: There's a huge difference between a prisoner swap between warrant factions and a ransom request by a terrorist organization to a political party. And that's the key difference.
SCIUTTO: Finally last night ISIS issued a new ultimatum. Deliver Miss Rishawi to the Turkish border by sunset today or Lt. Kasasbeh and Mr. Goto would not survive the day. The relentless back and forth is raising hard questions about whether ISIS was truly negotiating at all or whether Jordan made a mistake to try.
HERTLING: They are attempting to elevate themselves into the status of a political movement and a state. They are not. They are a terrorist organization.
SCIUTTO: It's the early morning hours now in Amman, Jordan, 3:00 in the morning. I'm told that officials there continuing a tense, a nervous wait for news. So far at this point no news either good or bad. But you have Erin that as time goes on, hopes for a positive outcome grow dimmer. But listen, officials there are not willing to say that. They're not going to go there until they have something definitive.
BURNETT: All right. Jim Sciutto, thank you. OUTFRONT tonight. Pentagon Press Secretary Rear Admiral John Kirby. Admiral, good to have you with us. You just heard Barbara Starr reporting at least one of the five Taliban commanders traded for Bowe Bergdahl returning to quote-unquote militant activities. What can you tell us about that?
REAR ADMIRAL JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Well, I can't really get into specifics on any one case. What I can tell is that we take issues of reengagement very, very seriously. And reengagement can mean a lot of things. It doesn't necessarily mean or has to mean a return to the battlefield. But we look at all of this factors and when we consider reengagement we work closely with agencies and law enforcement and intelligence and our international partners to deal with it as effectively as possible. What I can tell you here is that we have a strong security partnership with Qatar and are in constant dialogue with Qatari government officials about these five detainees. And we're confident that we would be able to mitigate any threat of reengagement by any of these members.
BURNETT: And of course you mentioned the country that took custody of those five Taliban commanders, Qatar back in June when the deal was done. I was actually there at the time. And Qatar agreed to take custody of the detainees and they provided assurances that those detainees would not pose a threat to the United States. They included a one-year ban from travel out of that country of Qatar. And the Obama administration put its trust in that country. Here's what President Obama said at the time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. BARACK OBAMA (D), UNITED STATES: The Qatari government has given us assurances that it would put in place measures to protect our national security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Was the trust misplaced? I mean, was this deal worth it?
KIRBY: No, the trust was not misplaced, Erin. We as I said earlier we're confident that the security assurances are in place and that we can mitigate whatever threat of reengagement might evolve with any of these detainees. And as I said we're in constant communication with Qatari officials and have been throughout this.
BURNETT: Now, Bowe Bergdahl of course left his base in the middle of the night. We do not yet know the circumstances of course of that departure. I know at the Pentagon, you have been in the middle of an investigation for the past, what, seven months. There were reports earlier this week on two networks that Bergdahl was likely be charge with desertion, you denied those reports. What can you tell us now? And when will we know if Bowe Bergdahl will be tried as a deserter or not.
KIRBY: Well, what I denied was that, he has been charged. There had been no charges filed against the Sergeant Bergdahl. The investigation as you noted is complete. It was delivered to General Mark Milly, a four star general. And it was delivered to him in late December. So, he's only had it for a month. But his job now is to figure out what to do about this case. How to dispose of it. Now, he has any option from doing nothing at all to all the way up to general court-martial for very severe, potential severe offenses. But no offenses have been levied against him. No files have been charged. General Milly is working his way through that investigation right now. I know he's working on it every single day, he's not under any pressure to get it done on a fixed timeline. But he also is very mindful of the importance of this case. And he wants to make sure that he takes the time to get it right. And we'll just have to wait to see when he gets through it and when he decides.
BURNETT: And now, the Jordanian pilot that was held hostage by ISIS, held hostage by ISIS at this time, this is the first military prisoner from the U.S. led coalition fighting ISIS that was actually captured by ISIS. So, it's a specific and unique case. The question I have for you admiral, is the United States obligated to do what it did for Bowe Bergdahl, right? For Bowe Bergdahl we said, okay, five Taliban commanders because this is an American prisoner of war. This is a prisoner of war of American led coalition. Should the United States do whatever it takes to get this Jordanian pilot back even if that means negotiating a prisoner swap?
KIRBY: Well, I think -- to the Jordanian government, this is their pilot. Yes, Jordan is a member of the coalition. But in terms of these kinds of issues they are settled at the national level. And he's a citizen of Jordan. So, the Jordanian government is working themselves through on how they might or could potentially recover him. And I wouldn't want to get in the middle of that. And certainly, while they're still working through it, but look, we've told the Jordanians that we will help in any way that we can that's appropriate. But ultimately this is a decision they have to make.
BURNETT: All right. Admiral Kirby, thank you so much. Always good to talk to you.
KIRBY: Thank you, Erin.
BURNETT: And OUTFRONT next, a 26-year-old American woman is still held by ISIS tonight. He's a hostage. So, what should the United States do to save her? She's not a POW.
Plus, a measles outs break. A highly contagious disease now in 14 states in the U.S. Should parents be allowed to not vaccinate their kids?
And John McCain unleashed today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: You know, you're going to have to shut up or I'm going to have you arrested. Get out of here you low life scum.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: Tonight, the world waits for word on the safety on two men held hostage by ISIS. The militants have said they would spare the lives of a journalist and a pilot if the Jordanian government turnover a convicted terrorist. It is been hours since that deadline, no word again on whether those hostages are alive or dead. Tonight, we're learning more though about that would be female bomber that they want in exchange for those men and the other high value terrorists that ISIS desperately wants to free.
Deborah Feyerick is OUTFRONT.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For ISIS it is
a new dynamic experts say demanding high value prisoners in exchange for hostages. And coincidentally or not, three prisoners ISIS wants back are women. A suicide bomber, an alleged bomb maker and a woman tied to the head of ISIS. The fourth is a child. Each symbolically and strategically important for the terror group.
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: By negotiating with ISIS, by recognizing them, by even having dialogue with them, it gives them the impression of acting as a state.
FEYERICK: And exchange for the Jordanian military pilot and Japanese journalist ISIS is demanding the release of failed Jordanian hotel suicide bomber Sajida al-Rishawi. The al Qaeda operative and her husband targeted a Radisson Hotel ballroom in 2005 killing three dozen wedding guests. Al-Rishawi is connected to ISIS through her brother once a ranking member of al Qaeda and Iraq which spawned ISIS. In exchange for American journalist James Foley and later Steven Sotloff, ISIS demanded the release of Lady al Qaeda, an imprisoned M.I.T. trained neuroscientist in the United States linked to 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. She was arrested in Afghanistan in 2008 carrying bomb making documents for a mass casualty chemical and biological weapons attacks against American targets including the Statue of Liberty in Brooklyn Bridge. It's ironic ISIS is demanding women prisoners given how they treat women terrorism expert Sajjan Gohel.
SAJJAN GOHEL, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY DIRECTOR, ASIA-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: Women are seen as commodities. People who can be sexually exploited. And ISIS thinks that it can be justified. It's a disturbing dynamic of a group that effectively thugs, bandits and criminals that have created an ideology cloaks their true and nefarious agenda.
FEYERICK: One high profile prisoner who ISIS has not yet publicly demanded is this woman who maybe the wife shadowy ISIS leader Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi who fought with al-Qaeda in Iraq. Regional sources tells CNN Saja al-Dulaimi is herself a powerful ISIS figure arrested as a high value target as she crossed into Lebanon with this 4-year-old who the source identifies as Baghdadi's child. The source sells CNN since the capture in March 2014, Baghdadi has been calling to get his child released.
And Erin, right now there's a direct connection between ISIS, the three female terrorists and the country's that they are from. But looking ahead terror experts predict that in the future ISIS will cast a wider net trying for prisoner exchanges to free anyone connected to the international terror movement -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right, Deb, thank you very much. And OUTFRONT now, Gary Berntsen, a former CIA officer who dealt with hostage situations, he was with the agency and retired U.S. army General Spider Marks. Good to have both of you with us. Gary, let me start with you. You were critical on helping to rescue two aid workers who were held hostage in Afghanistan. If there is an opportunity in this situation, for this 26-year-old aid worker to swap somebody that ISIS wants, one of those prisoners Deb was just talking about in exchange for this aid worker, should the U.S. do it?
GARY BERNTSEN, FORMER CIA OFFICER: I would say that the United States doesn't want to be in the business of doing swap. They've been done in the past. We want to do everything we can to use our covert capabilities, our military capabilities and we need to convince these people if they kill an American there as, you know, they beheaded people, that we're going to send 25 b-52s from, you know, North America and we're going to flatten Raqqa. I mean, we have to play hardball with these guys, if they want to play this way with us, we have to be very hard with them.
BURNETT: And to be clear though, obviously as you point out, Americans have been beheaded. The U.S. has conducted air strikes. So far has failed to take these guys out. It's not like they haven't tried.
BERNTSEN: No, no, not of the quantity that I'm talking about.
BERNTSEN: We send 50 b-52s over there and we destroy the city of Raqqa, they kill an American, I think they will stop killing Americans that way.
BURNETT: General Marks, what do you think?
MAJ. GEN. JAMES "SPIDER" MARKS, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, clearly this administration has not upped the ante as Gary has indicated, you know, the quid pro quo for something like this, it would include a much greater use of military force and essentially an air campaign of some sort. But clearly the issue Erin in my mind is as governance collapses and we're seen this very as broadly in the mid-east the ability of government to establish themselves legitimately and inarguably our government's inability to really maintain a leadership ability to influence activities and affect activities on the ground elsewhere, NGOs and businesses, non-governmental work and start to provide good services and activities where the governments can't. And so you end up with aid workers that are held hostage. So, the question becomes are these folks afforded the same type of protections as you would a soldier or service member who might be in a similar circle?
BURNETT: Well, that's a key question when you put it that way. Right? I mean, Gary, what do you say to that? Because obviously you just heard John Kirby from the Pentagon, you know, when he's talking about it he's saying, well, it's a sacred duty to rescue a prisoner of war from the United States military. If these aid workers are doing something the military for example was doing in Afghanistan but isn't here, should they be treated the same way?
BERNTSEN: Look, during the Afghan conflict, we had the shelter now international hostages there. Two of them were Americans. We pursued the rescue of those young women with the intensity that they were our daughters, sisters, wives or mothers. We did everything possible and thankfully we were able to execute all of the agency and the military together a recovery of them. But it required work on it every day. The agency myself and a team for a military forward every day working with our Afghan partners communicating with the other side running sources in. We did a number of things to make this happen. But you have to have an intensity and I was expected to do that by CIA. And the White House wanted to be briefed on that. Every day I was reporting back. And I knew it was going to the President.
BURNETT: So, here's the thing though. You know, when you're talking about, do whatever it takes and I know Gary in your view, you wouldn't do the swaps. But, you know, raids, things like that to try to help these people. So, I spoke with the former Navy SEAL Robert O'Neill who killed Osama bin Laden, I asked him about this very situation, right? About when someone's in a place like Syria trying to do good, right? But they are there by choice. They know the risks of capture and death. They are there by choice. That person gets captured. American troops get sent in to risks their lives, to try to rescue this person. I wondered if SEALs ever feel resentment being told to go in and conduct raids to risk their lives to help people like that. And here's what he said. It was a pre-honest answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT O'NEILL, FORMER NAVY SEAL: It is upsetting. I've had a good friend that was in my team. He was killed tried to rescue an American doctor in Afghanistan. And part of our issue is why are you going there? I mean, obviously, it's noble and they wanted to do the right thing and they are good hearted people. Most of them are aid workers and journalist.
O'NEILL: The problem is you need to have a realization that there are people that don't like you based on simply being a non- believer or an apostate. They will kill you based on how you look.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: General Marks, that's a pretty honest answer. But yes, there is resentment. Should the U.S. be conducting raids to save every American that goes into these places even if they are people with good hearts and good intentions?
MARKS: Well, this is anecdote one, this is one man's view.
MARKS: And an incredible view of the activity.
MARKS: I mean, he's been at the very tip of these engagements and he knows intimately what it's like. The point that were trying to make is, the United States will bring any power that it has to bear. They will galvanize everything they can. They will put folks at risk in order to solve a problem very precisely as Gary has described and that we've all been a part of. The fact remains is as our inability to work all elements of power. That's the diplomatic, the informational, the economic piece in a long term, kind of a long horizon engagement, you have to have a military capability in order to make this work. It is very demanding and it must be done.
BURNETT: Right. Thanks so much to both of you.
And today Senator John McCain tore into prosecutors who swarmed the former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger while he was testifying before Senate committee today. The demonstrators are from a professional basically protesting group called code pink. They surrounded Kissenger. He's 91 years old. They held up sings accusing him of war crimes being Vietnam. Senator McCain was incredibly angry. He ordered Capitol Hill police to remove them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: I've been a member of this committee for many years. And I have never seen anything as disgraceful and outrageous and despicable as the last demonstration that just took place. Get out of here you low life scum.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: You think he was justified. Let us know.
OUTFRONT next, the measles outbreak spreading in America. We'll tell you about a father's desperate fight to stop the anti-vaccine movement.
And inside a cockpit of an airbus A-320 simulator. We're learning new details tonight about Air Asia. All details about those final moments of flight 8501
BURNETT: An outbreak of the measles is sweeping across the United States tonight. Now, we have new numbers from the CDC. From today, there are now 84 cases that they have registered in 14th states this month alone. Fifty six of the cases have been linked to an outbreak at Disney land in California. And now, just days before the Super Bowl in Phoenix, health officials are monitoring more than 1,000 people in Arizona who may have been exposed to measles.
Dan Simon is OUTFRONT in San Francisco tonight where the controversy over vaccines is spreading. And Dan, I know you spoke with a family that's stirring up a very significant debate. They are taking a stand, putting this on the front burner where it deserves to be. What are they doing?
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Erin, as we all know there's just a certain number of parents who don't want to vaccinate their children. Well, I spoke to these parents, they live in Warren County, just north of San Francisco. And they say, if you don't want to vaccinate. OK. Well, we don't think your children have any business coming to our son's school. This is a bold statement to be sure but for them this is very personal.
(voice-over): Six-year-old Rhett Krawitt is not vaccinated for measles or anything else, but it has nothing to do with religion or his parents philosophy towards vaccines. Rhett has battling leukemia. He's in remission now. But a thousands doses weakened his immune system.
CARL KRAWITT, RHETT'S FATHER: The vaccinations that he had when he was a baby are basically wiped out by -- all the antibodies are wiped out by the chemotherapy. And then, they have to wait until he's immune testimony is strong enough to revaccinate him.
SIMON: Until then, his parents have an idea and a controversy one. They want Rhett's school in Marin County, California, to bar any children who haven't been vaccinated. Such a move would decrease Rhett's chances of getting the measles which could lead to death according to his doctor.
DR. ROBERT GOLDSBY, PEDIATRIC ONCOLOGIST: This is not just about Rhett. This is about all kids that have immune dysfunction whether it's from chemotherapy or underlying deficiency syndrome.
KRAWITT: Instead of waiting for an out break and reacting to what is a disease, let's get ahead of it and avoid having that outbreak in the first place.
SIMON: Here in California and other states, there are exemptions that allow parents to opt out of vaccines and still send their children to school.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are your children vaccinated?
TRACY SKYTT, PARENT: For the most part.
SIMON: Tracy Skytt has children at Rhett's school. She did get them vaccinated for measles but not everything else the school requires. So, she got an exemption which requires the form to be signed by a health care professional. She doesn't believe in forced immunizations.
SKYTT: And we live here in Marin, which is a liberal place. It's a well-educated group of people. It's a thoughtful group of people. I think if parents are choosing not to vaccinate, it's probably for a reason.
SIMON: The numbers are not trivial. More than 6 percent of kindergartners here have personal belief exemptions. That's nearly three times the state average of 2 1/2 percent. Nationally, it's 1.8 percent. In a statement provided to CNN, the school district tells us California law protects the right of parents to refuse to vaccinate children. Rhett's parents can see their on the losing side of the battle but still hope some good will come of it.
KRAWITT: What we're trying to achieve is immunity. What we're trying to achieve is raise immunization rates so we don't have to worry about measles. (END VIDEOTAPE)
SIMON: And they also don't worry about their kids suffering through another horrible disease, Erin. As I said, they know their probably going to lose this one but glad to be triggering this national conversation -- Erin.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: It's an important national conversation to have especially when you look at the science and the reality. Thank you very much, Dan.
I want to bring in Dr. Armand Dorian in Los Angeles, where the measles outbreak is believed to have begun at Disneyland, and Dr. Jack Wolfson in Phoenix where health officials are monitoring more than 1,000 people who may have been exposed.
OK, I appreciate both of you being with us. You have very different points of view.
Dr. Dorian, let me start with you. The current outbreak is continuing to grow. Cases I mentioned confirmed in 14 states, including California and Arizona, many blamed the anti-vaccination movement. Is that fair to link the two things together, that the anti-vaccination movement is somehow linked to the outbreak?
DR. ARMAND DORIAN: There's no question. You have to link the two together. Look, in 1964, there was three to four million cases in the United States every year. After the vaccine development in 2000, we eliminated measles. Since then when people started not immunizing their kids this outbreak has begun.
The numbers are clear. It's straightforward. There is no controversy. This is something that's being propagated by people who don't understand the medicines.
BURNETT: And, Dr. Wolfson, the number of cases have more than tripled during the past year. I know you are opposed to vaccinating children with MMR, which is the vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella. It is, to be fair, one of the most widely study vaccines in the world. Links to autism have been widely discredited. Yet, many people are not vaccinating. In fact, the majority of the measles cases in this outbreak, which I think is important to mention, have involved people who were not vaccinated.
So, why do you oppose the vaccine?
DR. JACK WOLFSON, CARDIOLOGIST: Well, what I'm opposed to is the fact we're injecting chemicals into our children. This is aluminum, mercury, sometimes aborted fetal proteins. There's antibiotics in there.
We're doing something that is totally foreign and totally unnatural to our children. We're experimenting on our children.
Our children have the right to get infections. We have immune systems for that purpose. As the doctor previously said, there were millions of cases. Rarely did anybody die from this. These are typically benign childhood conditions.
We cannot sterilize the body. We cannot sterilize our society. We need to be effective by these virus, bacteria. We need to be aware of these things --
DORIAN: That's ridiculous. Yearly 4,000 people were debilitated because of just measles alone. Five hundred people would die yearly from that illness. If you think that's trivial, I can't believe you're actually a physician. Look, this is the most studied --
WOLFSON: I'm not sure where you get your facts from.
BURNETT: Hold on, Dr. Dorian, finish, and Dr. Wolfson, I'll give you a chance to reply.
DORIAN: This is the biggest revolution in medicine. Vaccines have saved more lives than you and I and any other physician combined. For you to talk about toxins, that's something that people who were talking about autism have now jumped on to toxins. It's pharmacology. It's dose dependent. Water can be toxic. It all depends on the amount you're giving. We've tested vaccines and we have saved lives.
It's people like do you that bother me because you're a physician. It's one thing for a layperson to not understand vaccinations. But as a physician, for you to go out there and tell people to not vaccinate, that's egregious. That's something that you're doing a disservice to the public.
BURNETT: Dr. Wolfson?
WOLFSON: Well, I'm sorry that you feel that way, sir. I mean, but the reality is, is that I'm a board certified cardiologist. I've studied all these issues for years. And the reality is, that you're talking about benign childhood conditions. If you go to the CDC Web site, the Center for Disease Control, you go to their Web site, you can see that for years --
DORIAN: That's what I'm quoting, by the way.
BURNETT: Dr. Dorian, let him finish his point.
WOLFSON: So, once again, whether it's chicken box, measles, mumps, rubella, there's 70 people who have it right now or 80, whatever the number is. They're not dying. These are benign childhood conditions they will be immune for ever.
You're injected chemicals to stimulate the immune system. That's not the same thing. We all had chickenpox as children and we're all fine because of it. BURNETT: OK, let me just say, the CDC says the measles can lead
to pneumonia, life long brain damage, deafness and deaths. You keep using the word "benign."
DORIAN: Yes, is that trivial? Is that trivial?
BURNETT: I don't understand the word "benign" and those four things in the same sentence.
WOLFSON: Well, I understand that. But the reality is that the numbers do not demonstrate. Bad things can happen to anybody. We can be in car accident, we can be a toaster fire. Bad things can happen.
But the reality is, is that we need to keep our children healthy. We need to give them good food. We need to keep chemicals away from them. They need to get appropriate sleep. They need to get to get appropriate chiropractic care. Actual healthy doctors as opposed to pill pushers and chemical pushers like the person that on I'm television with right now.
BURNETT: Final word, Dr. Dorian.
DORIAN: What I'm trying to tell you is, yes, we want our kids to be healthy. Yes, we want them to exercise. Yes, we want them to eat properly. We also want to actually honor medicine and understand research.
We have saved millions of lives because of vaccinations. I, on a daily basis, take care of people infected by illnesses because they did not vaccinate. I see their eyes. I see their family members.
I can't believe you, as a physician, can look and say that they should not be vaccinated. That's just not part of the Hippocratic Oath. You're doing harm, Doctor.
BURNETT: All right. I'm going to leave it there. But to our viewers, I mean, you know, look, as a parent, my point of view here, vaccinated my child, did the research. It was very clear. It did not seem to be any sort of a question.
Always open to hearing the other side. Doing the research it appeared to be extremely clear. There's no question, vaccinate.
OUTFRONT next, new details on the final moments of AirAsia Flight 8501. We're going to go inside the cockpit and a murder mystery involving one of football's biggest super stars. He could have been playing in the Super Bowl. But instead, he is on trial for murder.
BURNETT: Tonight, new details about what happened when AirAsia Flight 8501 crashed into the ocean killing all the people on board. We now know who was at the controls of the plane. It was the co- pilot, not the pilot.
We're also learning the plane's final movement. It was wobbling and it veered left. Stall warnings blared. It started a short climb upwards and suddenly plummeted down. All this in about three minutes, 20 seconds.
Kyung Lah got an exclusive look inside a cockpit simulator of what exactly would have happened.
DAN DUKE, RETIRED UNITED PILOT: Right now, we're flying the Airbus A320.
KYUNG LAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And you have flown this before.
DUKE: Yes, that's right.
LAH (voice-over): So times over his 35 years with United Airlines, retired pilot Dan Duke has lost count. We're joining him in a A320 simulator, the same as the doomed AirAsia Flight 8501.
(on camera): Would you say that most Americans have been on this plane if they fly?
DUKE: If they fly, they might actually have been on it. It's easier plane to fly, it's easier to train.
LAH (voice-over): A state-of-the-art computerized plane, so smart it can correct a pilot's mistakes, but not all of them.
DUKE: Guys, hold on to your hats.
LAH: We're asking Duke to fly through the sort of storm cell Air Asia encountered.
DUKE: That which is exactly what they did. They turn to the left to avoid the thunderstorm.
LAH (on camera): How fierce are those thunderstorms?
DUKE: Picture yourself on the worst roller coaster you've been on and multiply it by ten.
LAH: So, this is what they were experiencing?
DUKE: That's right. Much more like this. You see the 6,000 feet a minute.
LAH (voice-over): Climbing at 6,000 feet a minute out of control and beyond the plane's normal capacity. Something forced the plane up.
(on camera): What's happening in the cockpit?
DUKE: In the cockpit, there's tremendous confusion.
LAH: And you can feel the plane slowing down.
DUKE: You feel it slowing down.
LAH (voice-over): Just before the fall.
DUKE: Feel that bump?
LAH (on camera): They're not flying anymore. They're just falling.
DUKE: We're dropping. We're doing 12,000 feet a minute.
LAH: We're just dropping. Oh, yes.
Was that a crash?
DUKE: Yes. Pulled too much.
LAH (voice-over): It happened before I even knew it.
DUKE: We were doing 15,000 feet a minute down. That's about what they were doing when they disappeared off the radar.
LAH: In most of the scenarios he runs, the auto pilot corrects and sudden climbs or dives.
DUKE: Here's the stall. We were saying, oh, gee, we're going slow. We need more power.
LAH: Surviving a stall something an A-320 pilot trains for. Duke says whatever happens to AirAsia, he can only guess it was so violent, the pilots and passengers couldn't get out of it.
DUKE: They're probably very uncomfortable, they're probably very scared, and there was nothing they could do about it. They were very helpless.
LAH: What he can capture, the sheer terror of the human beings aboard AirAsia Flight 8501 and the grief and the sudden loss of all of those lives.
LAH: Authorities say even though the 46-year-old co-pilot was the one at the controls, every one aboard was certified. There should have been a routine flight. There was bad weather that day, though. And, Erin, they are still searching for an exact cause -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you so much, Kyung.
Next, one of the biggest stars in football, his team headed to the Super Bowl. He's back home on trial for murder. We're in court for the opening arguments and, yes, this is the Patriots again, people.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BURNETT: Tonight, as the New England Patriots get ready to take
the field at the super bowl, the team found itself at the center of another scandal but this time, it actually has nothing to do with Tom Brady, but rather what the team knew about the star player's alleged role in a murder.
Today, the team's former tight end, Aaron Hernandez, appeared in court for day one of a high profile murder trial.
Susan Candiotti is OUTFRONT.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The commonwealth is going to prove to you that the defendant committed the crime of possession of firearm and he committed the crime of murder.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The defendant, 25-year-old Aaron Hernandez, once a star receiver in NFL, a favorite target for New England Patriot's quarterback Tom Brady.
TOM BRADY, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOTS QUARTERBACK: It's a terrible thing that happened, when someone who has been on our team, it's -- you know, you just -- it's a very sad thing.
CANDIOTTI: Just days before Super Bowl XLIX, Brady and head coach Bill Belichick already the focus of an alleged cheating scandal, will now play sports ultimate game under the cloud of a murder trial.
Hernandez's charge with the 2013 execution style murder of semipro football player Odin Lloyd. Prosecutors say the two men argued at a nightclub two nights before.
Central to the case against Hernandez, surveillance videos that show the victim on the night of his death. Prosecutors say Lloyd is seen getting into a car with Hernandez and two other men, Ernest Wallace and Carlos Ortiz. They'll be tried separately.
Video shows the same car is shown driving to this industrial park at 3:22 in the morning. Witnesses report hearing gunshots a few minutes later. Then at 3:27, a camera shows the same car again pulling into Hernandez' driveway, about a half mile from the crime scene.
Although prosecutors say four people drove into the park, only three get out of the car at Hernandez's home.
And then, there's this -- the former tight end's own surveillance cameras capture him holding what prosecutors say is the murder weapon, but no murder weapon has ever been found.
UNIDENTIFEID MALE: The defendant's texted and called Ernest Wallace and Carlos Ortiz more than 40 times.
CANDIOTTI: But a crucial text sent to Lloyd to his sister just minutes before he was killed is ruled inadmissible. "You saw who I'm with." "NFL, just so you know."
Prosecutors claimed Lloyd was identifying his killer, but the judge rules it's not proof Lloyd thought he was going to die.
MICHAEL FEE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: The police and the prosecutors targeted Aaron from the very beginning, as soon as they found out that Aaron Hernandez, the celebrity football player, the New England Patriot, was a friend of Odin Lloyd's, Aaron never had a chance.
CANDIOTTI: Inside the courtroom when I was observing the jurors, one of the most dramatic moments came when prosecutors were showing the photographs of Odin Lloyd as his dead body laid in the industrial park. At that moment, Odin Lloyd's mother broke down in tears quietly and left the room. Many jurors leaned forward to watch her do that. It was very emotional -- Erin.
BURNETT: Susan, thank you very much.
Our legal analyst Paul Callan is OUTFRONT.
All right. You hear the defense attorney. The minute they heard Aaron Hernandez, the celebrity, the star player for the Patriots was involved, he was targeted, he didn't have a chance. That's their side.
The other side is four guys drive into the woods, three guys come out in the middle of the night at 3:30 in the morning and on surveillance camera, you have this New England Patriot pulling what appears to be a gun out of his hip.
PAUL CALLAN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the big beef about this case is that it's based on, quote, "circumstantial evidence", but people say it's weak case because it's circumstantial evidence.
But, you know, circumstantial evidence can be very, very strong. I'll give you an example, you come home to your house, there's a glass on the floor and a rock next to your door. Well, that's pretty strong evidence that someone threw a rock through the window. That's circumstantial evidence.
If there's a snowstorm and you see footprints in fresh snow, that's evidence that somebody walked through the snow. That's circumstantial evidence.
Circumstantial evidence can be very, very strong. And here as you just indicated, this guy gets into a Nissan Altima with Hernandez and his two friends. They have witnesses that they drive to an industrial park and three minutes later, when the car pulls in to Hernandez's house --
BURNETT: Three guys get out.
CALLAN: Right. Lloyd's body is missing. His found in the industrial park and guess what? The cameras in the house show Hernandez taking what appears to be a gun out of his waistband.
BURNETT: So, you think when you look at all that, you think they've got enough to convict?
CALLAN: Well, it's certainly pretty persuasive, I think.
Now, they've got great defense attorneys here and they're going to be trying to poke holes in the case and say this is circumstantial, it's weak.
CALLAN: But you know something, when you look at it from five different angles, it also seems to one conclusion.
BURNETT: So, there are a lot of things that aren't admissible. There's that text message that Susan was just reporting on, the man killed sent to his sister. Hey, look, just notice who I'm with, NFL, just so you know.
CALLAN: That's right.
BURNETT: That's not admissible.
Also not admissible, someone filed a civil lawsuit against Hernandez, a friend of his, they said he shot him in the face. There's a charge of him murdering men outside of a nightclub and a there's a photo of him holding a gun.
Should any of those things be admissible?
CALLAN: The idea of his having killed two other people, now, remember, he's indicted for two other murders --
BURNETT: But not convicted.
CALLAN: Not convicted. But there was one -- one of the big missing items is the motive. Why does he kill Lloyd? I mean, here he is, celebrity, rich, successful, why does he kill him? One of the things may be that Lloyd knew something and he had to kill him to quiet him-up.
BURNETT: Knew something about the other murders.
CALLAN: Maybe the other murders. But that's not coming, OK, in the time of trial.
BURNETT: All right. Paul Callan, thank you very much. This is going to be a fascinating one to watch. And we'll be right back.
BURNETT: Thanks so much for joining us.
Tomorrow, OUTFRONT, the Northeast battered again by snow. A double whammy. The latest on the next big storms, plural. But sure to set your DVR to record OUTFRONT. You can watch us
"AC360" begins right now.