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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Protests in Baltimore; Community Leaders Organizing Peaceful Protest. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired April 30, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:07] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Erin, thank you very much. And good evening, everyone from Baltimore.
As you see it there, the scene in Philadelphia, protesters once again out of the streets here in Baltimore and out in a big way so you can see on the streets of Philadelphia, major developments to record and one big surprise. The video you're seeing right now is from the middle of a large and at times heated confrontation. If you are just joining us between police and protesters in the city brotherly loved.
There have also been a number of clashes. Now this had come in the end of a big day back here in Baltimore. Police have finished their investigation in to how Freddie Gray was fatally injured in their custody.
The report is in. They are not making it public. That was expected. This was not they revealed at van (ph). That Gray was transported and that they revealed that the van that Gray was transported and made an extra stop. It is one of the new developments, we are going to be bringing you tonight.
But I want to focus right now on what's happening in Philadelphia. Poppy Harlow is there.
And Poppy, we're looking at this kind of overhead view of this kind of ebb and flow between protesters and police. Police clearly trying to push protesters back. Explain how long, how big this crowd is, how long it's been going on for. What you're seeing?
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So we have been marching reporting alongside the protesters who have been marching for the last two hours, Anderson. It has been completely peaceful until the last 15 minutes. That is when the group marched down to the entrance of i-95, interstate 95.
The police had told our producer, Lawrence Crook (ph), they can march peacefully as long as they want but if they try to get on or block the highway they will not be allowed on. That is exactly what you are seeing here. The Philadelphia police have formed a line on horses, on their bikes, on foot and they are blocking the protesters from getting on to i-95 east.
I will tell you. I had a conversation with the chief inspector of police here and he told me this is going to be a loud, a large, but lawful protest. These are people that need to be heard and he said to me the protesters are citizens not suspects. Our job is to keep them safe while they express their first amendment right. And that is exactly what happens throughout the afternoon. It is just in the last 15 minutes that there had been altercations, Anderson. There has been pushing, there has been screaming. I cannot say if there have been any arrests yet. We have not seen it.
COOPER: I want to bring in -- Poppy, I want to bring in Harry Houck, formerly with the New York police department.
Harry, as you look at the both of these vantage points on the streets of Philadelphia, it actually doesn't look like a huge numbers of officers there given the size of the crowd. What do you make of the police lines that you're seeing?
HARRY HOUCK, FORMER NEW YORK POLICE DETECTIVE: I know. That is exactly what I was thinking, Anderson. It did looks like that probably several hundred or maybe even more than that there. And this may be about 50 or 60 police officers.
I'm hoping that they have police officers in the background in the event that they need backup to come, you know, and back those officers up. But it looks like they are holding them back pretty good. But from far away, looks like there is some tussling going on. And I know the reporter says that she hasn't seen any arrest, doesn't yet. But it will be interesting to see what happens.
COOPER: Poppy Harlow, I don't know if you can see it from your vantage point, it looks like there have been a few perhaps bottles, plastic bottles, water bottles, I'm not sure what they are being thrown or kind of lob toward the police from somewhere in the crowd. I have seen maybe two or three. Are you seeing that as well?
HARLOW: So Anderson, I got my producer, (INAUDIBLE) with me. Jaime, you just saw few things thrown. What did you see?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw an empty bottle and also a big bucket being thrown in both directions. I'm not sure who is coming from.
HARLOW: So that's important to note, Anderson, that she doesn't know who it's coming from. But there have been a few objects that have been thrown here. Interestingly, you're probably seeing this from your vantage point about a third of the crowd has their hands up and that's what we have been seeing as they formed a line trying to get on the interstate 95. Many of them put their hands up after that initial scuffle with police after they saw that they're not going to be allowed on the interstate.
I just spoke with the young woman a few moments ago and I said, you know, why is it important for you to be right here specifically? You are allowed to march peacefully around the streets of Downtown, Baltimore around city hall. And she said because we want to march. And we are being blocked. And she feels that they should be allowed on the highway. Obviously, the police do not obviously, they said, they will let them march. And they need to keep them safe. But clearly, the police are not going to let them go beyond this point, Anderson. I was told by the chief inspector of the police, there was no curfew
here tonight. That they can go as long as they want to go as long as it is not violent.
[20:05:00] COOPER: Harry it's interesting because you see a number of the citizens who are next to the police have their hands up and then sometimes we have seen them talking to police as if to say, look, I'm not actually pushing, I'm not doing anything, but it seems like given the type of confines of the space, even to the people in the front lines are not pushing, people in the back, if they are pushing or surging, the people with their hands up end up in confrontation with police.
HOUCK: Yes. You know, usually in situations like this, where you have so many people all coming towards one section is not much area for them to move, the police officers are, you know, having to think of the people in the front row are actually trying to start an altercation but it's not. It is the force of the crowd. So that -- the police department has got to leave an area for those people to move into away from the police officers. And as you can see here in the picture now, you see them moving to the left, maybe the police officers have opened an area for them to be able to escape from. And that's --
COOPER: Yes. Poppy, it looks like they have provided -- it looks like they have kind of provided an escape valve, if you will, to allow the group to continue to move on. Do you know where they're now heading?
HARLOW: I don't. I am walking alongside now. But absolutely, they were sort of stuck in the same place for the last 20 minutes. Now, it seems part of that line of police has cleared and let them through.
Again, where they are walking on now and where we're walking beside them is basically a frontage road right next to the highway. So they have not yet entered the highway. I don't think the police would let them do that. Let me just ask someone with me.
Excuse me, sir. Do you know where you're marching right now? I know they wouldn't let you through you. I know you are marching and you were being held back. What's the goal? Where to go now?
OK. He doesn't want to say where they're going now. Let me ask one of the person here.
Excuse me, ma'am. Do you know where you're marching right now? No.
And Do you know -- did you see some of the confrontations back there? Do you know why it start like that, it escalated? Because it was peaceful for two hours.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It don't make no sense. I don't want cameras in my face.
HARLOW: OK, understood.
And Anderson, I do want to be respectful. Some of the people don't want to be on camera and they have that absolute right so we are going to pull away so they are not on camera right now. But I will tell you, look, I was very encouraged all afternoon seeing how peaceful these protests were. And then the last 20 minutes it escalated. But I am -- you know, from what I can see right now, they are continuing on what has been a largely peaceful march.
COOPER: Yes, it certainly seems like kind of a cord and has been open. But the highway that you said that they were trying to get on they are not getting on that highway. Is that correct, Poppy?
HARLOW: No. I mean, absolutely not. Look, I'm not with all of them but where I am right now is with the majority of them and they are not trying to get on the highway anymore now as far as I can tell, Anderson, no.
COOPER: OK, Poppy, I want to appreciate your efforts while continue to follow this in Philadelphia.
I want to go to our Miguel Marquez who is here in Baltimore and has been now for many days as you know.
Miguel, where are you? What are you seeing tonight?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are in Pennsylvania and north. About a thousand protesters form here at one point marched all the way down the city hall. And then back to here. And now they have gathered. This is the place sort of the epicenter of it all, a place where they protests, the place where became most violent, the place where the CVS burned down. And now it is believed there were people here hoped that it is now a place of renewal. (INAUDIBLE) with people from the march who don't want to go home and they are waiting, I guess, for the curfew again to start.
There are police lined up around the way. Probably eventually clear this area. And I will tell you that the information that has been leaked out there today, people in this march are not too happy with what they have heard with regards to Mr. Gray and whether or not the juries were self-inflicted. They don't believe that is the case. I think it is going to be very, very difficult for individuals here to believe that.
They said they will keep up these marches. Clearly much more organize d than what we have seen in days past, Anderson. They have another plan for tomorrow. Saturday, a big rally. Saturday should be a very big rally with lots of activities as well downtown at city hall. All of this putting a lot of pressure on the government here to have that report and come up with some charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Freddie didn't kill his self.
MARQUEZ: And that's the sense that you get from everybody in this neighborhood. That Mr. Gray could not have done that to himself and that is the anger. If that is the conclusion, it's going to be a problem -- Anderson.
[20:10:08] COOPER: Miguel, that information which people thought some information might come out tomorrow, clearly the police let out a little bit of information today. I don't know what the intention was. But it certainly, I guess, takes in theory it could take some of the pressure off tomorrow correct?
MARQUEZ: I think that is the police on the side of the government. I think people here, there is a great expectation. No matter how many times we say it's not going to happen tomorrow, no matter how many times we say that it is not going to happen tomorrow. And so, I think there is a lot of concerns. This is exactly is, they don't believe that is going to be the case anything. If they don't have justice tomorrow there are going to have concerns. And this (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: All right, Miguel, thank you. We will check in with you. We are on for two hours tonight. I want to go back to Poppy Harlow now in Philadelphia.
Poppy, it clearly it seems the crowd continues to be on the move. What's the scene?
HARLOW: It does continue to be on the move. And here is the thing, Anderson. Earlier, the police have locked up some of the streets. So no cars to go down to the protesters. Could walk with no cars.
Here's what happens when you run into traffic at the end of the workday. Some of the drivers here are supporting them, honking their horn, waving at them and some of the drivers are stock here. Look, it continues to be, and I want to emphasize a largely peaceful protest.
There was a clash back there. It lasted for about 20 minutes. I could not see from my vantage nor have we heard from the Philadelphia police if there have been any arrests. But what has continued is a largely peaceful protest. And that is what police wanted. This all began with the big rally of about 600 people, Anderson at city hall this afternoon at 4:30 p.m. And it is continuing into the night. There is no curfew here. Police said they will let it go as long as it is peaceful. And from all of the protesters I have spoken with, there is no specific end goal of where they want to end up tonight. They are just continuing to march together.
COOPER: Is it clear to you -- was this initially organized kind over social media as we have seen with many of the protesters, many of the cities over the last several days?
HARLOW: Yes, absolutely it is. It was formed by a group called Real, a group that was formed after I'm told, after the events in Ferguson, Missouri. They put it out on social media. About 2,000 people were expected to come. I can't tell you if that many people are here. You have better areal at this point than we do. But it was absolutely organized on social media.
In terms of why people are here, I think that is important to talk about on a night like tonight, why they are here. It is a number of difference reasons. A woman, a white woman, middle-age Kimberly told me she was here with her daughter because she loves this city and she feels like in this city, just like in Baltimore there are two cities. There is such an economic inequality and disparity and believes that inopportunity is that the root of this, Anderson. And that is what has been echoed to me from people of all ages here in this march.
COOPER: Poppy, appreciate your reporting. I will check back in with you to see how this march progresses. We are going to take a quick break.
We also be checking back in with everyone throughout the next two hours as we head the curfew here in Baltimore.
Coming up next, the facts of the Gray case, there's a lot of facts that we do not know. And I think it is very important to stress that. There's a lot that simply is not known. As we said the police gave out more information today. It has actually angered some people the way that information was released. The intent perhaps behind it. We will talk about that and tell you all the latest ahead.
[20:17:36] COOPER: Welcome back from Baltimore. We are following a large demonstration tonight in Philadelphia. We are also obviously monitoring developments here in Baltimore.
Police in Philadelphia are turning a crowd of marchers away from one of the on-ramps to interstate 95. Now, protesters are still out in the streets as you see here as well in Baltimore. And many of them reacting to one particular report in the papers today suggesting that Freddie Gray may have fatally injured himself. Now, the fact is, the question of how, when, and where he sustained his fatal injury remains murky tonight to say the least.
With a lot of conflicting reports from multiple outlets, something we hope we can try to clear up and that is where CNN's Evan Perez comes in.
What's the latest reporting that you have -- that you have been monitoring on exactly what happened? There's so much we do not know.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right, there is so much we don't know. We do -- you know, the police only added to the mystery with this new information about this additional stuff.
COOPER: So explain what the police released today.
PEREZ: The police provided their investigative report to the state attorney's office a day earlier than they said they would. But additionally, they said that there was an additional stop. They previously said there were three stops by the wagon between the time it left, picked him up and dropped him off in jail. They suddenly said now there's a new stop, a second stop, which had not been reported to the police.
COOPER: And they didn't specify why that stop was made? PEREZ: They did not. There is no information about why that stop was
made. It is clear that they -- that the video that shows the stoppage came from private video, surveillance video from a store. It did not come from the police because the police -- the driver of the van is supposed to radio in and register every single stop. That did not happen.
COOPER: That did not happen. So the driver of the van, the police officer who is driving the wagon did not call in and say I'm making a second stop.
PEREZ: He did not registered that second stop. And so now, you know, we're left with, incomplete information, frankly. And it adds I think Anderson, to the distress that already surrounds this investigation because people want answers and now we're getting new questions instead of that.
COOPER: Right. And again, the second stop it could be he wanted to get a drink. It could be there was a problem with Mr. Gray, it could be -- I mean, any number of reasons.
PEREZ: And what we, you know, from what the police have said it really shows that the video is not conclusive. It does not explain everything.
[20:20:00] COOPER: WJLA has some additional reporting that is getting a lot of attention. Explain what they have been reporting and the important of it.
PEREZ: They are reporting that the medical examiner provided some preliminary information to the police. Now, we know that police are in the presence of the medical examiner as they are doing the autopsy. And according to the district board, Freddie Gray sustained a head injury. And they suspicion is that when he was thrown in to the van and they reached this conclusion because there is an injury to his head that matches what appears to be an injure from a bolt, a dead bolt which matches one that would be in the back of this van.
Now, there is a lot left there. We still don't know exactly how we get there. Could he have sustained this injury from thrashing about because he was, as police say, was irate, we don't know?
COOPER: Right. It could have been there is a rough ride idea that he was jostling around, if there is self-inflicted. There is -- if the police officers slamming his head or throwing him in, he hits his head. But a head injury is not the same as a vertebrate injury or even the voice box
PEREZ: Or even the voice box. It does not explain the voice box injury, thus perhaps explain breaking his neck which again, it is one way you can say that. But it does not -- it does not really fully explain everything.
COOPER: And the fact that again, pieces of information are coming out as they often do. Some of them through leaks, some like the police coming forward today and saying there was this second stop. PEREZ: And we have done these so many times. They are often later
discredited. So I mean, we have to be very careful (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: And it's important to point out what we know and what we don't know. But certainly people on the ground are reacting to this grip and draft of information coming out. And it certainly raises continued suspicions that, OK, why is this -- I mean, everybody, people leaked information for specific reasons, people talk for specific reason and that's really raising a lot of worries.
PEREZ: And especially the report last night from the "Washington Post" which appears to be self-serving for someone to make the case that Freddie Gray would have killed himself because on the account of some other prisoner who is separated by a metal barrier that he is reading into this that Freddie Gray was trying to harm himself intentionally. I mean, that is just hard to understand how anyone could make that conclusion.
COOPER: Right. In my reading of the "Washington Post" report, I mean, basically, whoever that person who allegedly made this report to police, the second prisoner in the van, he was imagining what was in the intent of Freddie Gray which you can't imagine intent based on whatever you may have heard a prisoner banging or whatever to say what the intents of that banging is, is impossible.
PEREZ: It is impossible. And again, that adds to, again, what you are talking about, the distress on the streets about this. It reminds me a lot of how we were dealing with Ferguson and the drips and drabs of information.
COOPER: And we know how so much of the initial reports from there later were not proven in grand jury testimony.
PEREZ: And it post a problem for the investigators. That's really what it did too.
COOPER: And Evan Perez, thank you.
The investigation, we should point out, continues, though the police have now handed over their result to state attorney's office. They also will be conducting their own investigation that is ongoing.
I want to bring in our panel, former NYPD detective Harry Houck, also legal analysts Sunny Hostin and Jeffrey Toobin, both former federal prosecutors. Sunny used to live and work here. And we should point out as friends with Rawlings-Blake. Joining us as well is forensic scientist Lawrence Kobilinsky of the John Jay College of criminal justice.
Professor Kobilinsky, I want to start with you. Let's talk about this notion of a head injury that was the factor that caused his death according to this report from WJLA report that something happened inside the van. There was a head injury that seems to be consistent with a bolt that's inside the vehicle. What do you make of it? Because we had been believing that all along that there was a vertebrate, severed vertebrate fractured, spinal cord severed and a voice box injury. That's not a head injury.
LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC SCIENTIST: That's absolutely right, Anderson. So let's start from the beginning. We have a young healthy male with three cervical vertebrate fractured. For that to happen, you need intense force, you need impact that is focus and concentrated on those bones. How did it happen? That's the big question.
I don't believe that a person who is in the back of a police van shackled, handcuffed, not seat belted in, could propel himself against a wall or a floor and break those vertebrae. I do not think it was self-inflicted.
So, what are the other possibilities? One possibility is, as this report indicates, he was thrown into the back of the van. He hit this bolt with his head someplace on his head. We don't know where. But the force could have been generated. His weight plus the force pushed him in to back could theoretically explained how that could have happened. That's one possibility. Again, the other possibility is that the vertebrate had been broken earlier before he got into the van.
So there are still a lot of questions. We have to deal with possibilities and probabilities and so we are also back to the fact that he wasn't strapped in. He asked for medical help and didn't get it. So, there are a lot of questions here that the police really still have to explain.
[20:25:51] COOPER: Harry, how could this second stop that the police released information about today. Everybody little information just that there was a second stop that wasn't known previously, that wasn't that the driver of the wagon didn't radio it in, saying I'm making this stop. They only discovered it based on surveillance footage from the street where it happened to be stopped. What explains the second stop to you? Does anything?
HOUCK: Well, I'm kind of thinking because they stop next to a store. That maybe he went to a store like you said before, Anderson, for a soda or something like that. If he was all by himself and the prisoners were locked in the back of the a prisoner van, I don't see him getting out and trying to confront Gray by himself. That is really crazy thing to do. So the holdings are we don't know the exact time that he was -- they made the and how long that stop -- how long were they there when that stop occurred. So that something that we will have to do to make a determination on why that stop.
But it's really interesting that nobody mentioned this. That's why I'm thinking that the driver is the one officer that didn't make any statement at all. The other five officers may not know about this stop. So it might not be in this statement at all.
COOPER: And, Sunny, I think it's just vital to keep reiterating we don't have the facts. We don't have all the facts. None of the facts are -- all the fact are not publicly known. The report has been handed over to the state's attorney. That investigation continues. And so, there's a desire, obviously, on the part of everybody to know all the facts and to try to come with conclusions but that's from a reporting standpoint, we cannot make some conclusion.
SUNNY HOSTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: We really can't. Especially with not having some of the reports to look at. And I think it underscores how difficult it is for this prosecutor, for the state attorney. Because even though the police department has provided that office with their recommendations, with the evidence that they have gathered, it is very clear to me with the bit of information that we have that there seems to be a lot of conflicting evidence here. And so, this prosecutor has to farce through it, this prosecutor has to conduct her own evaluation of the evidence, has to conduct her own investigation and it's going to be very, very difficult. This is far from what we sometimes call a slam dunk case, far from it.
COOPER: And Jeff Toobin, I mean, what do you make of all of this? I mean, obviously, it was either a criminal act or an accident. And in terms of both criminal -- a criminal case and also any kind of civil case, the standards are very different.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: The standards are very different. And you know, at this point when you're dealing with very piecemeal information that is often being put out there by people who have an interest in how this information is perceived and we are still without the single most important piece of evidence at all which is the full autopsy report which we will say how Freddie Gray died.
I also think it's just worth pointing out that the prosecutor doesn't have to simply take the police investigation and make up her mind about whether this case should be filed. She is going to do her own investigation. She can use the police. She can use the FBI. She can use the state police. She can hire independent scientific experts to analyze the evidence. So, you know, yes it's frustrating to all of us. We want the answers yesterday. But this is really the beginning of the next step, not the end of the investigation by any means.
COOPER: And this could go on for a very long time. People obviously want answers, tut the Gray family attorney who is going to talk us tonight, you know, has been saying look, it's important that everything, all the Is are dotted, all the Ts are crossed.
TOOBIN: Absolutely. And we are not talking weeks. We are talking months. But you know, if you want to hire a new forensic expert to analyze the autopsy, that could be weeks. It could be months. You could have experts on impact. You know, there are experts who couldn't do nothing but analyze the effect of how, you know, powerful impacts on people. Again, that is complicated, difficult. Those experts take their time. There is a lot more to know here. And there is a lot - there is more that we don't know than there is about we do know about who is culpable if anyone for a crime here.
COOPER: Yeah. I want to thank everybody on the panel. I want to go to Brian Todd who is standing by in Baltimore. Brian, where are you? What are you saying?
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, at the corner of Pennsylvania and North Avenue, this has been a very fascinating scene. This is a kind of an impromptu street debate that has broken out. Very heated debate. You can consider it an argument at certain point, because people are getting very passionate. No pushing, no shoving, no violence. But just a lot of anger vented. These people are kind of debating the justice system. Debating how they've been treated. How people in their neighborhoods have been treated. This young man here is particularly angry. You've got this on one side. People in their 20s really and the teens venting their anger.
Now, a photo journalist Tom is going to come with me here. Look at what you have got over here. You've got - These are five young kids all from the same family between the ages of six and ten showing their side of civil disobedience here. They were walking with the marchers earlier. And now they are here very scared of debate as we head into the curfew.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILDREN: We are the future.
TODD: Ages six and ten, all kids from the same family. Tom, come over here. I want to talk to a man of another generation. This is Dr. Roddy Warren (ph), a minister. He had ministries here in Baltimore and elsewhere. Now, we see all of these generations. All it's involving more - you are leading the march. You told me a moment ago, you are worried that some of the people in the younger generation from their teens to 20s are not listening to people of your generation, the message of peace, non-violence and productivity, all of that. What's your frustration?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, my frustration is that we as body of Christ, as churches, we must educate our young people. You know, I heard young men telling about Martin Luther King, how he was assassinated, Malcolm X. And, you know, with (INAUDIBLE), it comes down to education. Because - if your neighborhood and the action. You are not saying this because uses profanity. It's not the answer. We have to educate our people. The church has got to get involved in the community. It has got to get out of the four walls, come out here and grab our young people and say, let's hope! Let's - together, and - we can do, just (INAUDIBLE) the problem. There is no answers.
TODD: All right. Doctor, thank you very much for speaking to us tonight. We appreciate it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
TODD: One of the march leaders very passionate about his side of this. And here you have some of the other generations, Anderson.
COOPER: It's really interesting, Brian, because we have seen scenes like this all throughout Baltimore in the days and in the nights since there was violence on Monday night. And really, since that violence has drastically reduced, drastically reduced, we have seen a lot of conversations and there are people having conversations all around us right now. There is a gentleman over there expressing his views. And people come, they listen, they comment. They break off, they go off with another group, - the other conversations, and you see that on street corners, on streets and communities throughout the city of Baltimore. And we have seen that day after day after day. And no doubt, there is still a lot to talk about and a lot to try to figure out and do resolve.
We're going to take a quick break, but we're going to check back in with everyone throughout the two hours - the next 90 minutes, I should say, until the curfew here begins. Coming up next, talk to the Gray family attorney Billy Murphy. What he makes of the investigation so far, and this drip, drip, drip of information. Some of it being leaked out, some being released by the police today. We will be right back.
COOPER: And welcome back here in Baltimore. We are going to talk to Gray family attorney in just a moment. I just want you to see a crowd outside the federal prison of Philadelphia. The crowd is now starting to move away, quite a large crowed there, as you see in the streets, part of large demonstration we've been monitoring throughout the night. It has been overwhelmingly peaceful. There was some pushing, shoving and a confrontation with police at the top of the hour, so major intersections there as well the demonstrators have been going through. They are stated theme, and their words - and I quote, "Philly is Baltimore." Protesters still out in the streets here as well. Emotions still, obviously, raw. The truth of what happened to Freddie Gray still unclear. And people here now - I just think, frankly, a lot of murky, contradictory, potentially inflammatory accounts that have been coming to light. I want to talk about it all right now with Gray family attorney Billy Murphy. It's great to have you on again.
BILLY MURPHY, ATTORNEY: It's nice to be here.
COOPER: So, police coming out today and say, there was a second stop in the wagon that Mr. Gray was in. Where you surprised?
MURPHY: It was a fourth stop. We know of three.
COOPER: Well, no, but they said that it was number two in the time line. They initially said that there had been ...
MURPHY: A new stop.
COOPER: There was a new stop, correct.
COOPER: So, now there's four stops. What do you make of that? A, them coming forward saying that?
MURPHY: I don't know what to make of it yet.
MURPHY: But I'm sure we'll get more information about it. And it's very strange. Why where there any stops?
COOPER: Right. And particularly, that one because that was not radioed in. There was no information whatsoever about it. MURPHY: Very irregular.
COOPER: We're also now getting as you well know, and you know how this thing works, drips and drabs of leaks and people leak for specific reasons. People leak with an agenda. People leak because they want their point of view taken across. What do you make of the leaks that have started to come out? The, you know, the local WJLA reporting about a head injury that Mr. Gray may have sustained in the van that matches a bolt that's in the van. Are you concerned about this kind of - this drip and drip and drip of information?
MURPHY: Yes. Because it says that the investigation doesn't have the proper integrity. And it happened before Maryland got the information. So, it didn't come from her, it could have only come from the police.
COOPER: What do you make of -- do you have much confidence? It happens to me all the time. Do you have much confidence.
MURPHY: I got sick from all of this.
COOPER: I'm sure you do. You've been up and round the clock. Do you have much confidence in the attorney now who is taking this over? Who's been handed the police investigation? Do you have confidence in her?
MURPHY: I have no reason to have confidence in her. She's a brand new prosecutor. We supported her in the community over the incumbent. We did so because she - we thought she was going to be better and we stand by that. We think she's going to be better.
COOPER: Do you think it was good that the police - you know, police said, well, look, we want it to be transparent as we can. That's why we're telling you about this new stop that we previously had not mentioned about. That we recently learned about. I don't know exactly what day they learned about it. You and I had talked two days ago about the concerns of what might happen Friday tamping down expectations. Police are saying we want to be transparent and, perhaps, diffuse some of that buildup tomorrow. Do you think it was wise to release that?
MURPHY: No. They have two police departments working here. One is following the spirit of the Commissioner Mr. Batts who really does want to get the truth. I mean his career literally depends on it. and then there's the old guard who still believes in the blue wall of silence. They are not interested in the truth. They want to help their buddy - or buddies know matter whether they were right or wrong. It backs what the blue shield of silence really means.
COOPER: Do you still - I mean you personally don't know what happened to Freddie Gray, correct?
MURPHY: No, not yet.
COOPER: You don't - you don't feel like you know for sure 100 percent.
MURPHY: No, and I'm not willing to speculate at this point. I haven't seen the autopsy report, which is a major piece of information. Not necessarily this positive, but maybe.
COOPER: You - the family was going to do their own autopsy. Can you say what process ...
MURPHY: Oh, no, I'm not going to say anything about that.
COOPER: I had to ask, though.
MURPHY: Full disclosure applies to everybody, but us.
COOPER: That's right.
COOPER: Spoken - attorney. Tomorrow, do you think things - I mean it seems like a lot of people have gotten that word out. I've talked to a lot of pastors who've been in schools the last couple of days saying look, there's not going to be a charge on Friday. We are not going to know what happen on Friday. Do you think that message has gotten out?
MURPHY: I hope so. And I think we ought to put it out again tonight, and that is - People should lower their expectations and not be upset if the full c doesn't come out tomorrow or if any new part of the picture doesn't come out. Now, we think the autopsy report may come out. And I don't know what that's going to reveal. I haven't seen it. And I don't know.
COOPER: In advance about it?
MURPHY: Because we represent the victim, yes.
MURPHY: And there is a statutory provision that gives us the right to see it first.
COOPER: All right.
MURPHY: So, we'll know a lot more tomorrow. If it come after tomorrow, we don't know for sure.
COOPER: All right, Mr. Murphy, I appreciate. Up next, we are going to go back to Philadelphia. Hundreds of protesters still marching at this hour. Stick with us. We will be right back.
COOPER: Welcome back to our live coverage from Baltimore. Protesters still marching on the streets in Philadelphia tonight. Nearly an hour ago, some clash with police. There was some pushing, a few bottles were thrown. They were stopped when they tried to get on to a major interstate. That's the scene that occurred at the top of the 8:00 hour in the East Coast. Poppy Harlow is with the demonstrators who, I believe, are still on the move. Let's check in with her. Poppy, where are they now and is it still the same group that you're with?
POPPY HARLOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's still the same group, absolutely, Anderson. It is a very different scene than an hour ago, if you just showed our viewers that confrontation when some of the protesters that appeared were trying to enter an interstate 95. They were walked by police on horse backed by police on bicycles. They moved on from that. We've been marching with them since them. It's been about three hours now. I want to emphasize here how overall this has been a very, very peaceful protest. The chief police inspector telling me today this will be a very large, very loud, but very lawful protest. For the most part, it has absolutely been that. You have people here of all ages, all races, all different backgrounds telling me they are here because A, they want answers in the case of Freddie Gray. I think as you've been discussing with your guest, are upset about the drip drop of information that's been coming out. But also it's much larger than that. A mother, Kimberly, with her daughter here telling me this is her city and they align with Baltimore and this is about changing the system and having more of a discussion about economic opportunity and equality for all people. This is coming from a white mother, an African-American young woman attorney telling me that this is about opportunity. So, Anderson, it's the conversation that is happening around Baltimore, but not just focused on the case of Freddie Gray.
COOPER: Yeah, that's certainly true. This is far a wide range of discussions as we've been talking about. Poppy, we'll check in with you later. I want to bring in a CNN Chris Cuomo who is on the streets here in Baltimore. Chris, describe what you're seeing.
CUOMO: Anderson, it feels a little different tonight, to be honest with you. There aren't as many civic leaders here. They aren't as many older people. This crowd that you see is - starting to spill into the street, they are starting to redirect traffic. And they are very angry. They are angry about and talking to them earlier about what they see as laying the groundwork for a cover up. That's how they interpret leaks of the investigation. It is coming out early. There's still an expectation about tomorrow, even though they are well aware - I mean the level of information is high, at least in this group of young people here, but still tomorrow matters to them even though the report came out today. And they feel that this may be going the wrong way. Interestingly, the police are also here. They are staging. They are in big numbers. They are up the street. You will see the lights up there. They are creating a new station for themselves there to get ready.
CUOMO: But in talking to them, I asked about the situation as they are starting to redirect traffic and the officers and parts of the chain of command were saying this is a sensitive situation. We understand the frustration because of the information that came out. We are not going to do anything about this, unless somebody's public safety issue really becomes significant. So, the police are sitting here and watching this. So, it's about a balance. It's not just about simple law and order, it's about understanding the experience of this community right now.
But Anderson I will say, that hopefully we have another good night. Another curfew that's successful and bringing people home. But this is an angrier crowd and there are not as many people here talking to these young people about what should happen.
COOPER: Chris, we'll continue checking in with you. We are looking - we were just getting some pictures on the right hand side of the screen from Cincinnati. Here's the first images we've seen of a protest march in Cincinnati as well. People - there you see with signs marching through the streets. We've always been watching the situation in Philadelphia on previous nights, we saw Washington, D.C., we saw Minneapolis, and obviously, the big protest march yesterday in New York City.
Tonight coming up, what community leaders here in Baltimore are hearing from young people. You just heard Chris talking about the group that is out on the streets tonight. Where he is. How community leaders here are trying to bring people together and bring people together with information and together in peace.
COOPER: And welcome back. We are live here in Baltimore. Community leaders are helping to organize peaceful protest. There's going to be a press conference. Let's take this press conference from the police.
CAPT. ERIC KOWALCZYK, BALTIMORE POLICE: There's a small crowd at Pennsylvania Avenue and North Avenue that we're watching. There's also a small crowd at Mountain Pressbury and then a small crowd at city hall. So far everything has remained peaceful and we hope that it continues that way through the curfew. The Northwest district is the only district in the city right now impactful alert. The rest of the city is responding to calls normally. If that should change over the course of the weekend, we are again encouraging people that have calls for service, to please use the website www.baltimorepolice.org where you can do online recording or file reports with our telephone reporting units so that we can get you police service faster and ease the burden on the 911 system. We continue to keep resources staged across the city address - concerns - violence. We have heard throughout the day that there are people that are concerned about tonight and then going into the weekend, they will want to make sure that people understand that we hear those concerns, and that we are addressing them, we are taking steps to make sure that we have resources deployed in the right place.
KOWALCZYK: We will again be bullhorning the curfew tonight. You will hear cars driving throughout the city. They will be making the curfew announcements. As you've seen the last few nights, we will enforce the curfew again tonight. So, we are asking everyone by 10:00 to please stay back in your homes and off the streets. Finally, the ATF is offering a $10,000 reward for information leading to the person ...
COOPER: Announcements being made by the Baltimore police. I want to bring you - bring in some community leaders. With me now is Pastor Jamal Bryant of the Empowerment Temple Church. Also, Baltimore City Councilman Brandon Scott. Also with us is Crystal Harden-Lindsey, the principal of Green Street Academy. Crystal, let me start with you. How are the kids in your school responding to all that they have been seeing? What do they want to talk about?
CRYSTAL HARDEN-LINDSEY, PRINCIPAL, GREEN STREET ACADEMY: The kids are really resilient. They want to know why their city is burning. And they have a lot of questions and concerns and they want to know that the city is going to rally around them and rebuild our community. So, it's our job as educators to show them that through this - we can uplift our community. So, they have lots of questions about the why, and kids are standing up now. They won't have to be brutalized, ignored nor dismissed.
COOPER: So, you see - with age difference, like different reaction among younger kids and older kids?
HARDEN-LINDSEY: So, my younger kids, my sixth graders are asking questions around just why. Why can't we all just get it together? They don't understand the historical perspectives.
COOPER: They don't know the historical context for it.
HARDEN-LINDSEY: Just right. But my older kids have actually been victims of police brutality and feeling harass or - denying by public authority, so they have - experience. So, they are speaking out. They want people to know that they have a voice and really, they feel like a sense of hopelessness. And they rant that mass of anger. But really, they ...
HARDEN-LINDSEY: That's right. And they are reaching out for help so it's our job to come together and make that happen for them.
COOPER: Doctor, how concerned are you about this drip of information? I just talked to the Gray family attorney about this. You know, police releasing a little bit of information today. Now there are certainly leaks starting out. Obviously, when people leak, they have a reason to be leaking. What do you make of what you've been seeing the last 24 hours?
REV. JAMAL BRYANT, PASTOR, EMPOWERMENT, TEMPLE CHURCH: The House of the African-American community has been leaking a long time. It's almost flooded. So, when we do - it's the leak of the police department, we almost feel like we are looking for a raft with no paddle. And it looks like they are setting up for police's way of escape. And those who are in the community feel like this is disingenuous as not real.
COOPER: It makes you distrust all the more.
BRYANT: All the more. The whole system seems shoddy when the police commissioner said he would give us a full report May First. And now we hear that it's going to be sealed, but at the same time you say - you leak something to the Washington Post. It feels as though you are trying to do a quick turn of defense that we can't trust.
COOPER: Councilman, is that what you are hearing from people as well?
BRANDON SCOTT, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCIL: Yeah, and more importantly you're hearing that people are frustrated. What I have been doing is - talking to young people in the high schools, some of young people much like - I talked to Adonicia (ph) and Derek - if they were frustrated about their lives, but also who are frustrated about they've been ignored all the time when their friends get murdered. Who just want to see positive change and people just explain to them that they are not going to see immediate answers. And there's going to be a process so they understand what's moving forward - this has to happen, and that they can organize, they can be heard. And people again, people have to go out and talk to these young people, beyond - when this is over. People have to be in these schools, because they need adults to help them explain. They are brilliant minds, and they say brilliant things and do great things every day. We now see that we only see them and hear them. We don't see them and hear them when it is something negative.
COOPER: And also, people don't see them and hear them as multidimensional people. They are seen as a character that, you know, maybe they have seen in the movie - you know, people see - people want dimension. They don't see three dimensions.
SCOTT: They are humans and they say brilliant things every day. They do great things. They are athletes, they are scholars. Some of them are the breadwinners in their homes. Some of them are being impacted by this by losing their jobs. They are going to impact their families, because they go to school and go home and start taking care of their families. And hope to understand the greatest of Baltimore youth. But we have to uplift them. Men have to uplift the young men. Women have to uplift the young women. All of us have to do that.
COOPER: Yeah. Do you find -- do you think there's optimism out there that ...
COOPER: Not only that information about Freddie Gray, what really happened is going to come out, but that there's going to be more change?
BRYANT: It's a growing momentum of optimism. Young people feel empowered through these process.
BRYANT: That's why it's now in Philly and Boston and Ferguson, because of real movement has organically come together, feeling like we equipped to change all of America. It is a really - a synergy that's taking place. They are finding out about the system.