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"More Probable Than Not" Tom Brady Aware of Deflategate; Michael Brown's Friend Suing Ferguson; Policing in America; 21-Year- Old Nigerian College Student Died in Police Custody. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired May 6, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[22:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: You just saw Anthony Bourdain with his hero, Iggy Pop. But tonight, a very different and tarnish American hero is an outwater (ph). This is CNN Tonight, I'm Don Lemon. Remember this from Patriot's quarterback Tom Brady, before the Super Bowl.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is Tom Brady a cheater?
TOM BRADY, NEW ENGLAND PATRIOT'S QUARTERBACK: I don't believe so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That was then, this is now. The league says a locker room attendant and equipment assistant, likely let the air out of game balls at the AFC title game and Brady probably knew about it. So, what happens now? Who pays the price for Deflategate? Plus, black lives matter, (inaudible) lives matter, just as this week, officers were killed in the line of duty in New York and in Idaho. With all the scrutiny of police, are we forgetting that they put their lives on the line every single day?
Tonight, the dark side of keeping the peace, but I want to begin tonight with some Breaking News. And this Breaking News is out at Ferguson, Missouri. Dorian Johnson, the man who was walking with Michael Brown the day he was shot to death has been arrested. It is not yet clear what charges Johnson faces, but police say the incident began when Johnson yelled at an officer trying to detain someone else. They also alleged that he was then seeing throwing suspected narcotics on the ground. The arrest comes after Johnson filed a law suit last week against the city of Ferguson, the former police chief and the former officer who killed Michael Brown. Now the (inaudible) said that Johnson was wrongly stopped and fired at in that incident. We'll follow up on that.
But I want to turn now to New England patriots and to the Deflategate. In a phrase only an attorney could allowed (ph) Ted Wells, who led the investigation said this in the NFL commission report released today. This is the quote, "Based on the evidence, it also is our view that it is more probable than not that Tom Brady was at least generally aware of the inappropriate activities involving the release of air from Patriots' game balls."
Joining me now, Christine Brennan, CNN sports analyst and sports columnist for USA Today. Mel Robbins, CNN commentator and legal analyst, and Peter Najarlan, former line backer and CNBC Fast Money contributor, (inaudible). Christine, what's the bottom line here, did the Patriots cheat?
CHRISTINE BRENNAN, CNN SPORTS ANALYST: It looks like they did. It's like Tom Brady did and it looks like he didn't tell truth, Don, and that week in January where he finally had the press conference and he was the boy next door, Mr. Clean, Mr. America. And I think this is a -- a bad turn of events for Tom Brady. I think he's going to be punished by the NFL. I think his image takes a hit, Patriots fans will still love him, of course they will. But I think around the country, you know the notion, the integrity of the game that this is -- it was cheating and that's 243 pages of the report, this is serious stuff, the NFL is taking it seriously and I think we should expect some punishment for Brady and maybe even for the Patriots. I think it's that big of a deal.
LEMON: I want to read this text messages, but I -- I want to just get Mel, just a quick yes or no and then Pete. Did he cheat? Mel?
MEL ROBBINS, CNN COMMENTATOR & LEGAL ANALYST: Hell yes, he cheated.
LEMON: OK, all right. Pete?
PETE NAJARLAN, CNBC FOOT MONEY CONTRIBUTOR: I would have to agree with her --
LEMON: It's all right.
NAJARLAN: Because there's no question about it --
LEMON: All right. Because he's refusing to turn over his cell phone to the investigator, but there are so incoming text between Jim McNally, the officials locker room attendant -- or the official locker room attendant for the Patriots and then John Jastremski an equipment assistant for the Patriots. I want to read some of these -- some of these text messages and I think there are pretty -- this is from May 2014. Here is what McNally actually, nicknames himself, the deflater. Again, this is from May of 2014, May 9 as a matter of fact. He says -- McNally says, "You working" Jastremski, "Yup." McNally, "Nice dude. Jimmy needs some kicks. Let's make a deal. Come on help the deflater." And here's what McNally says, "Chill, buddy, I'm just F (ph) with you, I'm not going to ESPN yet." And yet another text (ph) saying, it's like October 23, 2014 and this is from Jastremski says, "Can't wait to give you your needle this week, Jay." And McNally say, "F (ph) Tom. Make sure the pump is attached to the needle. F watermelon is coming." And then Jastremski says, "So angry" and then McNally says, "The only thing deflating sun is his passing rating."
(LAUGHTER) LEMON: So now -- I mean there are from last spring and there are from
last fall, do you think that this points to a pattern of deflating the balls?
ROBBINS: I mean the fact that we're even asking the question is crazy, Don. I mean, come on. Of course, we don't need over 243 pages to be told exactly what we all know. You had two chumps (ph) that were -- are responsible for the equipment. They were getting paid off with shoes, with signed jerseys, with signed balls and there were text messages that proved it. And in fact, you guys remember that lame press conference, that weird press conference that Belichick gave where he was going on and on and on about the ideal gas theory and the fact that the balls magically deflated on their own because of temperature?
LEMON: is it the leather?
[22:05:08] ROBBINS: They spent 68 pages, Don, in this report, using science to basically say --
LEMON: What I mean --
ROBBINS: I don't think so.
LEMON: I think that maybe in the text messages it could have been like just two dudes joking round about the possibilities. And maybe they -- I mean, this, is this -- I don't know, Pete, is this, you think this is solid concrete evidence?
NAJARLAN: Well, I -- I think it is certainly is very incriminating. And certainly, makes it appear like this is something were (inaudible) there three folks are all in this together. So, you know, the reality is when you're looking at a ball or you are looking at a golf club, or you're looking at anything. If you're Tiger Woods, if you grab a 3 wood --
LEMON: You said that to me --
LEMON: you said that to me in January, didn't you?
NAJRLAN: Yeah. You can tell what it is --
NAJARLAN: And what it is and if it's right and if it's not.
LEMON: OK --
NAJARLAN: So there is no question about it.
LEMON: This is Tom Brady. This is on the morning of January 19th, the morning after AFC champion game. Listen. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are some report's post-game last night that league is looking into that the Patriots, your team deflated, were deflating the balls within the game. Have you heard about this story? Do you know the story I am talking about?
BRADY: No, I don't.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you care to tell me if you were deflating balls?
BRADY: No, I have no idea.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know what? So they say the acceptable limit is between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds, I guess it was they are saying --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Per square inches.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Per square inch, right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Air pressure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So they deflate it more, you can grip the ball better. Did you get the sense that you will able to grip the ball better than the Colts last night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you care to weigh in on that?
BRADY: Actually I -- I think I've heard it all at his point. Oh, God.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were trying to figure out whose job it is, to take the air out of the ball.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure it's Bob Kraft.
BRADY: It's nobody's.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not Jonathan Kraft, no?
BRADY: No, God, it is ridiculous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: That was on video conference because (inaudible) that was ridiculous anymore is it?
NAJRLAN: No, no. And now I think the pressure is on, I mean, it's on Troy Vincent or it's obvious at Roger Goodell. I mean, there's going to be a situation here where somebody's going to have to make some very difficult decisions because, this is the NFL brand, it's all about image --
LEMON: It did.
NAJARLAN: It's all about integrity. They've had too many headaches for the last 18 months and they've got to do something they can't just sit back and again, be soft on something. They have to come swift and --
LEMON: Christine, what type of punishment do you think the NFL is going to hand down here, if any at all?
BRENNAN: I think we'll see a punishment, Don. I think we'll see a possible suspension of Tom Brady, a game or two, which is very significant. I think we'll see a fine for the Patriots, maybe for Brady for himself. There are fines of -- for example, spygate, there were fines, big fines and that's a potential -- also potential here. I also think potentially a draft pick or two taken away. I -- the NFL is going to lower the boom on the Patriots. This is about the integrity of the game --
LEMON: But Christine, in order to -- especially, Tom Brady, it's got to be pretty big fans (ph) have any impact at all?
BRENNAN: Well, but one game or two games out of the season that -- is a pretty big deal. You don't -- especially the opening game, Patriots, the defending champs, they are going to be playing the Pittsburgh Steelers. And Brady is not in that game, that is a big loss to Tom Brady. At this point in his career, near the end of his career, 16 games season, you don't want to lose any games. So, one or two would be a significant loss, I think, Don, to Brady at this point.
LEMON: So (inaudible) do you think Mel, in the, in the history book, I mean does this diminish their victory at all?
ROBBINS: You know, for the AFC championship game, you could take away the half time score, which was 17-7 and they still would have won. But let me just back up a minute. You played the clip from January 19, Don, and you're a genius and let me tell you why, because you know what he did after that morning show --
LEMON: A little help for some producers --
ROBBINS: Seriously, do you know what he did on the morning -- after he appeared on that morning show and claimed that he knew nothing?
LEMON: He called.
ROBBINS: Had a 25 minute conversation --
ROBBINS: With the assistant equipment manager. He spent three days having 55 minutes of conversations with a guy that he'd almost never spoken to before. Why do you think he did that? Do you think that was because he might have been worried about Deflategate which was starting to inflate a little bit? I think so. And luckily --
LEMON: What do you say? And what I say?
ROBBINS: This is not a court if law, it's an incorporation, use the common sense, guilty, guilty, guilty. That's what I say, Don.
LEMON: And we have the text messages that took place between -- this is what they talking with John Jastremski, here it is right here, it say, "You good Jonny boy?" There it is. And he says, "Still nervous so far, good though. I'll be all right." And Brady said, "You didn't do anything wrong bud." So those are the text messages. Mel, you thought that I was a genius for playing that, I'm a genius for playing this. Because I want -- this is Gronk, everybody knows who Gronk is, Rob Gronkowski -- his reaction to Jay, when he was asked about this report, Gronk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have something to say.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Quarterback --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You spent the whole weekend with Tom.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you think about?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[22:10:06] LEMON: Hello, Gronk. I love Gronk. Did you see -- did everybody see his vine today? I don't know if I can repeat it, when he, when he talked about --
NAJARLAN: Pretty colorful guy.
LEMON: Talked about -- you know, balls --
LEMON: He said he can deflate these -- yeah.
LEMON: So -- I love you Gronk.
LEMON: So Gronk. A bunch of people went into the White House. Tom Brady did not go to the White House. Remember when --
LEMON: Was that on purpose? You think he decided not to do that, Christine? BRENNAN: Oh, gosh, I don't know about that. I mean, I -- you know,
people missed the White House, occasionally. He's been there a few times. So, I don't know that this would be because of that, now there's investigation, I'm not so sure I would link the two. But I think Brady's image is going to take a hit. I do, and I think people will look at him differently. He's still -- you know, he is not quite the golden boy that he was and I think that's a significant development and especially late in his career like this.
LEMON: Yeah. Did you guys see the thing on, on Facebook where he was jumping off the --
NAJARLAN: Yeah. Of the cliff --
LEMON: Cliff in Hawaii?
LEMON: I've done that before. You know I hurt my eye doing that.
NAJARLAN: Oh, you should, that's impact --
LEMON: That's a tough, that's a tough --
LEMON: I think it's on the road to Hana.
NAJARLAN: You should have had somebody inflate something for the land on.
LEMON: Can you give a Gronk?
ROBBINS: He was wearing a tug.
NAJARLAN: His tug.
LEMON: Tug. Thank you. Thanks, everyone. Thanks, Christine. Thanks, Mel. Thanks, Pete.
LEMON: All right. When we come right back, one sheriff's shocking charge, he says, Baltimore police are being and I'm taunting (ph) here, offered up as human sacrifices. We're going to tell -- he's going to tell me why he thinks the charges against those officers will never be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Plus, a 21-year-old college student dies in the custody of Georgia police. His family says, it did not have to happen. Could he have been saved?
[22:11:46] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Breaking News to tell you about in Baltimore, Sources tell CNN, the police department investigation into Freddie Gray's death, does not support some of the charges a prosecutor filed against six officers. That includes second degree murder and defense lawyers want to inspect the knife that Gray was carrying, arguing it's an illegal weapon. But prosecutor claims it's legal and his arrest was unlawful. Joining me now is Sheriff David Clarke of Milwaukee County Wisconsin. He says Baltimore police are being sacrifice to calm protesters. Glad to have you here tonight Sheriff Clarke. You say officers are being offered up as human sacrifices? Why do you say that?
SHERIFF DAVID CLARKE, MILWAUKEE COUNTY: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. First of all, brilliant, legal, scholar, Alan Dershowitz and -- Andrew McCarthy have opined on this as well and both have indicated that, in their view, that this decision by the Baltimore prosecutor was politically motivated, that it was rushed, that it was overcharged and it was done to -- for crowd control purposes, in other words to, to help quell some of the riots. But I talk about -- first of all, I concur with their findings but, most are brilliant legal scholars, I'm a not, I'm a cop. But I have a lot of experiences in investigating homicides and a four year period, I was part of the team that investigates over 400 homicides. I was lieutenant of detectives supervise homicides, supervise a scene. I've been part of charging conference (ph) with the prosecutors and I've assisted at table during murder charges, so I kind of know how these things operate.
CLARKE: I was astonished at the speed.
CLARKE: I was astonished at the speed that this decision came out very quickly. And the thing that bothered me the most was when the prosecutor went down that political rabbit hole. When she said, (inaudible) I hear your voices. Your time is now, no justice, no peace. Those are illegal terms. They might be terms used in social justice, but we're talking about criminal justice. So once you went to that political riot (ph), in my estimation, she made this cops political prisoners.
LEMON: OK. I spoke with her, right after her press conference. And she said that she investigated it thoroughly to that point, believes there's enough evidence to support her charges. If these were not police officers, but regular citizens, isn't that how you're supposed to proceed here?
CLARKE: No, it's not my experience I'm not saying. I don't think she doesn't have the right to bring these charges, but now she's got to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt and these brilliant legal minds that I talked about, they don't think it is going to happen. Now, we don't know for sure, but you know this officers are -- you know, presume to be innocent until proven guilty. But the fact is, on the case this highly charged already, that she went to she knew that or she should have known. You have to move deliberately. You want to take your time, because you can't get any of this wrong. There's the prosecutor. You don't get an undo over when you issue these types of charges. I understand that two people were misidentified in the criminal complaint, which are now these people are being harassed, people who aren't even involved in this thing. It's those little mistakes that happen when you don't take your time.
LEMON: There was -- she got there by the time this goes --
CLARKE: Reports on Friday.
LEMON: But by the time that this is all over --
CLARKE: And she comes out within 24 hours and -- with this finding. It's virtually impossible to convince anybody that you took your time.
LEMON: But as this investigation moves along, you -- she has a chance to correct that. And you, you know you mentioned the no justice, no peace part of it, and when I sat down --I want to play this for you. I asked her specifically about that. Here it is. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: You said today, I heard your calls for change, I heard your calls for -- you said no justice, no peace.
MARILYN MOSBY, BALTIMORE CITY STATE'S ATTORNEY: No peace. No justice, no peace, but at the same time we need to assure that we are peaceful and I think for young people, this is a movement and you're seeing for the first time young people getting engaged and getting a part and wanting to be a part of the process.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, I think Alan Dershowitz said, and I paraphrasing that she's using her prosecutorial powers as crowd control, you believe that it is political, a part of a social, social movement -- but there is context to what she's saying, no?
[22:19:39] CLARKE: Totally inappropriate for a prosecutor who's supposed to tune all of that out and make decisions consistent with our system of justice and the rule of law. She's not supposed to hear any voices and she's not supposed to be using the jargon used by the social justice movement. That would have been appropriate -- appropriate for the mayor to have made some of those statements that the prosecutor made. The prosecutor supposed to be neutral and it is not supposed to like I said, hear voices and not supposed to talk about some of the things that she did. Totally inappropriate for prosecutor, most prosecutors never would have gone there, in terms of that discussion.
CLARKE: They just would have done it.
LEMON: Do you view --
CLARKE: The l4ast time we saw that was in the Duke Lacrosse Case --
CLARKE: And we saw what happened there.
LEMON: Do you view all of these as a black and white issue or do you see this is more of a black and blue problem? I mean, do you recognize any problems in a way of --the way our cities are currently being policed?
CLARKE: No, I don't see this as a black, white problem. I don't see it as a black and blue problem. Look, we send them in our law enforcement officers into these untenable situations. These are impossible situations in the American ghetto. With all of these pathologist, and (inaudible) some of themselves inflicted, but some of them result of failed liberal (inaudible) policy. When we asked them, we say go in there -- police these things. Who else is going to do it? Who else is doing it? We live in a world that not -- things do not always go right. Sometimes things go horribly wrong, and when they do, all we expect is to have political support. We expect a thorough investigation, we expect to be transparent, but we expect the standard to be applied to the rule of law and not to an angry mob, and that's not -- it doesn't appear to me anyway. And what I have seen in some other cities that are going on here. This is a movement, there's no doubt about it, but it's not consistent with the rule of law in our system of justice.
LEMON: Yeah. Sheriff David Clarke, I really appreciate your perspective, thank you. Please come back.
CLARKE: Don, my pleasure.
LEMON: Thank you. In a wake of angry Baltimore and across the country, we sometimes overlook the dangers police officers face on the streets every -- every day. Two officers were killed in the line of duty this week, here in New York and also in Idaho. We going to tell their stories, next.
[22:21:54] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Police officers in many American cities are under fire these days and we in the media devote a lot of time in resources who are covering their missteps. While many of us are focus on that, in terrorist attacks, in presidential announcements, we sometimes forget just how dangerous their jobs can be. That officers who the first to respond to frightening situations, because that's their job and that's what we the public expect them to do. This week, two police officers were killed in the line of duty, here in New York and Idaho. We must remember that their families are grieving tonight. And as President Obama reminded us earlier this week, police officers in every town and city in this country, deserve our gratitude and our prayers every day, because of the dangers they face at any given moment. Here's CNN Victor Blackwell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We ask you Lord that, help this family --
VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A small Idaho community, Tuesday, mourning the death of a police officer. Sergeant Greg Moore, a 16-year veteran of the Coeur d' Alene Police Department, he was also Kevin Neundorf's friend.
KEVIN NEUNDORF, FRIEND OF POLICE OFFICER KILLED: We just left the hospital with his family and then -- and saw his, his wife and -- have to tell -- tell his child, his 12-year-old son that his dad wasn't going to make it home tonight.
BLACKWELL: Early Tuesday morning, Sergeant Moore tells dispatch that he stop this suspicious male, minutes later, police say Moore is shot by this man, Jonathan Renfro. Renfro was arrested after police say he steals Moore's car and leads authorities on a high speed chase.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're lifting up prayers for the family and for our police officers. They're going through a horrible thing right now, because one of their brothers has been killed.
BLACKWELL: A pay in this New York community is also feeling. NYPD Officer Brian Moore, no relation to Sergeant Greg Moore, died Monday. Police say Officer Moore was shot in the face Saturday after he and a fellow officer noticed 35-year-old Demetrius Blackwell adjust something in his waist band. As the officers drive up behind him, police say Blackwell pulls this gun from his waistband and fires.
LUIS RIVEROS, QUEENS VILLAGE RESIDENT: 25-years-old, going 25 years in the courts. It's devastating.
BALCKWELL: As Officer Moore's body is transported from the hospital, his father, a retired NYPD sergeant salutes and weeps. Renfro and Blackwell, each face charges of attempted murder, which will likely be upgraded, neither man has entered a plea.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like that there's supposed to be more support for our police officers throughout the United States. We have to move on beyond this and not use our police as moving targets in the world.
BLACKWELL: According to a study from the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund, the number of officers shot to death across the country in 2014 was up 56 percent from the previous year. And the number of ambush shootings in 2014, three times as high as the year before. The group found that gun related and overall law enforcement deaths in the line of duty are down in 2015, but that's likely little comfort for these officer's families and their communities.
NUENDORF: You hear about all the bad things that are going on in this world with cops and other communities, you never realize it's going to hit home, and for today it really hit home for us.
BLACKWELL: Two police officers shot and killed in the line of duty in America this week, and it's only Wednesday. Victor Blackwell, CNN, Atlanta.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Joining me now is Bernard Kerik, former New York City police commissioner and the author of From Jailer to Jailed: My Journey from Correction and Police Commissioner to Inmate 84888054. And also, legal commentator Areva Martin and Cedric Alexander, CNN law enforcement analyst and president of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives. Bernie, you know that number by heart, right?
BERNARD KERIK, FORMER NYC POLICE COMMISSIONER: I know it pretty well.
LEMON: Here's what you tweeted out today, you said, "Two Moore's shot -- two Moore's shot and killed in two days. Where's the outrage." So we -- we saw the officers being honored at the Mets. They were paying their respects. I've seen it on the news. Not as much as we have seen the protesting and the rioting but, what kind of outrage would you like to see?
[22:29:57] KERIK: I would like the see the community leaders that get out there and criticize and scrutinize and bash the police officers. You know, as somebody that unfortunately, I buried more cops than any police chief or commissioner in this country.
I know what these families are going through. I know what the departments are going through. I know what their brothers and sisters in those departments are going through. It's time for the country to show their support in a big way, especially on days like this. Back to back, to right behind each other these guys were killed. And I think, I think we should hear about it more than we are.
AREVA MARTIN, LEGAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. It's so tragic whenever police officers are killed. And I think we are seeing our national leaders from President Obama to others coming out in talking about these tragedies. But I don't think we should mix apples and oranges, Don. These are isolated incidents of individuals who killed cops in different cities in this country.
When we talk about unarmed African-American men being killed by police, we're talking about a system. We're talking about individuals that work for the government. They're doing what they do under the color of state authority and that's very different. So, I do think that the country is mourning the loss of these officers, and we have to remember that all lives matters. Not just likewise, but of course, the lives of officers that protects and serve.
LEMON: Do you think that, Areva, -- quickly I forget to schedule, do you think the outrage comes because they expect that police officers are going to be fair and honest, and that's where the outrage comes from when it is deemed that officers are not fair and honest, that they're supposed to be brokers of peace and honesty?
MARTIN: Absolutely. They're supposed to be -- that entity which protect and serve us. And we see that these issues are bigger than the shootings. The Ferguson Police Department shows us that. LEMON: Let's talk about the crime, Cedric. Violent crime dropped consistently over the last 20 years. In 2013, the most recent numbers that we have, violent crime is down; 44 percent, that was since 1995. Do you Americans are less thaw (ph) in some policing methods now that crime is down?
CEDRIC ALEXANDER, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF BLACK LAW ENFORCEMENT EXECUTIVES: Well, part of the issue is, Don, if you even go to the 21st century report, it's even indicated in there in as much as crime is down the relationship between police and community has not changed over the years. And that is what we have to work towards in this country.
But let me say something here real quick. Police officers are recruited, selected and trained, every day in this country. When they put on that gun and badge, they understand the chances that they take and they go out there and protect us and keep us safe and they run towards trouble while the rest of us are running away from it.
ALEXANDER: So, it is very important, Don, that we recognize the work that they do. Because an attack up on a police officer is an attack up on the society at large. And we have to give them our support. And when they get hurt and injured up there across this country in any city in America, we as community members across that community and across the country should acknowledge the fact that when they're assaulted and hurt that it affects all of us.
But at the same time, too, I think it's important to note that we still have -- we still have issues in this country, Don, as it relates to police and community working together in order to bridge some of these problems that have historically that have going on.
ALEXANDER: So, there's still a lot of work to be done, but we got to support our police officers and the men and women that are out there putting their live on a -- putting their lives at risk for us every day.
LEMON: I think no one would -- no one disagrees with that. And very well said, I want to get back to this -- to this note that we're talking about crime numbers here and murder rates. Because, you know, you guys remember the '70s, I remember the '70s. We wouldn't come to New York City to visit my aunt who lived there because of the murder rate and here in many big cities, in New Orleans and everywhere.
What Americans care less about police methods, do you think if the murder rates, if we were seeing those numbers from the 1970s, Areva, first and then I'll ask the commissioner.
MARTIN: I don't --- I don't think that's the issue, Don. I think what's happening in this because of technology we are getting to witness what happens on the streets in ways that we never were. In the '70s, if a police officer shots someone it was that person's word against the police.
LEMON: Against the cop. Right.
MARTIN: Now, we see this on videotape by bystanders, by, you know, innocent people who are just on the streets not just the dash cams and the body cams but just citizens who are taking these videos and they're showing us for the first time what's happening with respect to police and the communities that they police.
LEMON: Bern, listen, nobody is excusing what's going on, excusing, you know, police who abuse people.
KERIK: But-- and Don, you know what, here's the way I look at this.
LEMON: But, listen, there are problems with every -- in every profession.
KERIK: And -- and that's exactly right. There's problems in every profession and hopefully you weed those out but going back to the crime stats, and I can talk specifically for New York City as a cop and as the commissioner.
[22:35:02] The minority areas in New York City experience an 80 to 85 percent reduction in violent crime and about a 90 percent reduction in homicides in New York City. And many of the people today, they know New York as it is today. They don't -- maybe they weren't here back then, maybe they didn't live through those times, but I can assure you the people that were here, and like you said, in the '70s and '80s, people were scared to death to come to New York.
KERIK: And times have changed and that is a result of the Police Department of the City of New York and other areas. Look, Baltimore, Los Angeles, Miami, major reductions in crime over the year. You know, and I think a lot of times the cops don't get the credit they deserve.
LEMON: The mayor of Baltimore has asked the Justice Department to investigate her department. Can this kind of investigation do you think ultimately benefit the officers, Cedric?
ALEXANDER: I think in the long run if that's what the mayor is requesting and the Justice Department agrees to it based on what -- of what they believe needs to be done. And I think in the long run it will benefit that department. Because at a least that will be -- what will be determined is how to best improve that department, what are things that are going on that we do not know and how do we negate some other things that are said -- that being said of that -- about that department that may or may not be true. So, I think over the long haul, it certainly is going to benefit should the Justice Department decide to come in.
LEMON: I want to ask about this idea of -- so, the officers in Baltimore are saying, you know, they're afraid to go out in the streets, and they second guess themselves when they're coming in contact with someone who may be violent or a suspect. Is it necessarily bad to second guess, commissioner?
KERIK: I would say yes. It's -- look, you don't -- a lot of times, Don, it's just a, take these two examples in the last few days. Second guessing and I'm not second guessing each of this -- either one of these cases. I'm not talking about these cops, but you have a split second to make a decision at some time. A life and death decision and the unfortunate thing from many of these cops it could be their life.
And I've had friends, personal friends that have been shot. I've been in gun battles and I've lost many friends on the New York City Police Department as a result of gun battles. You only have a split second to make that decision. And God forbid you make the wrong one.
LEMON: I just want to show you what police officer do every night. Let's put this picture. This is a little boy, he's currently in a -- police said, he's in police custody. They've not released his name. They found him at Omaha, Nebraska in a dumpster. Now, he's in good condition.
He is 5 years old. He's 11 months, excuse me, I'm sorry. He's 11 months old. And now they're also looking for a -- a possible missing 5-year-old. That's why, I'm just reading this. This is just coming in, 11-month-old in a dumpster, police found him. Those are the good things that police officers do, but we don't hear a lot about them.
Thank you. I appreciate all of you joining us tonight.
MARTIN: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Thank you.
ALEXANDER: Thanks, Don.
KERIK: Thank you, Don, for having us.
LEMON: Thank you. A 21-year-old college student from Nigeria, studying here in the U.S. dies in police custody. Now, his family demanding answer. Why did he die?
[22:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: Matthew Ajibade, a 21-year-old college student from Nigeria died while in police custody inside an isolation cell at the Chatham County jail. That much is known but not much more. And his family is now demanding answers.
CNN's Martin Savidge has more now.
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In the beautiful old city of Savannah, a small group gathers to ask a potentially ugly question. What happened to Matthew Ajibade?
LIND TAYLOR, FIRST CONGRESSIONAL CHURCH: For his family, the cause of Matthew's death remains a mystery, but it should not be. SAVIDGE: The 21-year-old college student was studying computer
science. Friends described him as bright, hardworking and much loved. That is not Ajibade police described. And they showed up New Year's Day at this gas station for disturbance.
Surveillance video captures a struggle between Ajibade and his girlfriend. A police report says, the woman's face was bruised and her nose was bleeding. Police say, he refused to let her go and fought back. Mr. Ajibade started to resist apprehension in a violent manner.
At the jail, things got worse. According to a statement from the county sheriff's office, Ajibade became combative during the booking process injuring three deputies, including a female sergeant who suffered a concussion and broken nose.
Eventually, authority say, he was restrained. His supporters described something else.
TAYLOR: He was injured, handcuffed to a restraining chair and tased. He was left unattended and he died.
SAVIDGE: Four months later there still no public explanation of the how the 21-year-old died.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How does that happen? It has to be an answer.
SAVIDGE: The family has hired Attorney Mark O'Mara, a CNN legal analyst, who once represented George Zimmerman in the death of Florida teen, Trayvon Martin.
MARK O'MARA, CNN LEGAL ANALYST & AJIBADE FAMILY LAWYER: They first said they took a few weeks for an autopsy. That's long gone by now, but we don't know what it says.
SAVIDGE: According to authorities, several video cameras captured the struggle in the booking area, but that video like much of the investigation remains under wraps in the hands of the DA, which in a statement told the CNN, "The District Attorney is currently reviewing the file," a spokesman said and ".... would not elaborate on what was within the file or a timeline on when/if a decision to file charges would be made."
Meanwhile, Ajibade supporters delivered a letter to the Chatham County Attorney demanding documents and videos from the case calling for transparency. As for the alleged Jekyll and Hide personality of Ajibade, his family says he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder three years ago. And he was having a medical emergency at the time of his arrest.
[22:45:01] Ajibade's girlfriend said she told that to police and ask that he be taken on the hospital. Instead, he was taken to jail. His family says, that made all the difference between life and death.
Martin Savidge, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE) LEMON: Martin, thank you very much. Coming up, the family of Matthew Ajibade and their attorney, demanding answers. What happened inside that isolation cell? That's next.
LEMON: Matthew Ajibade's family wants to -- Ajibade's to say family wants to know why Matthew died while in police custody.
So, joining me now CNN contributor, Mark O'Mara. He is now representing the family of Matthew Ajibade. Also with me is Chris Oladapo, Matthew Ajibade's cousin.
Thank you, gentlemen. It's such a sad story. Chris, I want to talk to you first about this. How did the family learn of Matthew's death and what explanation were you given by police?
CHRIS OLADAPO, MATTHEW AJIBADE'S COUSIN: On New Year's Day, I was just -- I was actually called directly while I was still celebrating with my friends that Matthew died in a cell or something like that. It was just so -- it was sad, you know. They said, "Hey, you know, Matthew Ajibade is no longer with us and he died on a restraining chair."
[22:50:07] I could not even process that on New Year's Day. You know, it's -- it's -- it's beyond explanation. My life is never going to be the same. That day specifically for me, it's just -- it's a mark that I could never erase.
OLADAPO: You know.
LEMON: You guys are very close and you're cousins. You -- I looked like my cousins, you look like him. You knew he had -- you knew he had issues, right, that he suffered from some issues?
OLADAPO: Yes. His first bipolar reaction was actually on -- about three years ago, around the same time in Los Angeles. I came here, picked him up, took him to Savannah and, you know, tried to talk to him to come to his dad art school, you know, celebrate with me and spend time with me. And you know, I blame myself every day for bringing him to Savannah and the burden is really on me because I feel like -- I feel like I killed my brother.
LEMON: Mark, you're a CNN contributor, but in this case we have to give you -- I want you to be transparent now you're representing the family of Matthew.
O'MARA: Sure. This is advocacy not analysis tonight.
LEMON: Yes. It's been four months since he was killed.
O'MARA: You know, it is than less time it took from Mike Brown's death to the grand jury result. Less time for that to occur, and we have no idea what's going on with this case. We have nothing. It took four months for DA how to do, whatever they've done. They refused to even tell us the cause of death. They refused to give us an autopsy saying there are some -- there is an artificial shroud of an ongoing investigation.
The family deserves to know, four months, a 125 days today, and they don't know why Matthew died while being restrained in a restraining chair in jail cell under the control of the sheriff's office, and they tased him to death. And if that's not accurate, then let them tell us. Because we deserve to know why Matthew, at his age, with his promise, is now buried rather than going to college.
LEMON: The girlfriend told them when they came -- so, the girlfriend called 911 because he was having a problem, right?
O'MARA: It was a manic episode.
LEMON: He's having a manic episode.
LEMON: So, she called 911 and she told them that he was having a problem and that she wanted them to take him to the hospital, instead they took him to jail. She even gave -- did she give him -- them his medication as well?
O'MARA: She went back into the apartment brought out the medication which is for bipolar and said, here it is. This is what he has. This is what he needs to help with. They gave it to him and told her they would take him to the hospital, and of course, never did, took him to the jail where it seems he got no medical attention. The only he got was a restraint. No attention, no care, all he got was tased.
LEMON: Do you know why they chose to take him to jail instead of a hospital?
O'MARA: You know, there wasn't all -- I'll be fair, there was an altercation with desire of his girlfriend. And, you know, in that sense, and what happened was he was holding on to her so tight, not hurting her. And she said, he wasn't hurting you. He was so afraid, he wouldn't let go of her as comfort it seems.
They ripped his arm, so for got him on the ground. The video shows some of that, arrested him and off to jail he went for that battery that they suggested with this IO rather than dealing with the real issue which was the bipolar that they were advised of. Not only an excuse as of some might do but there is the medication. How much more proof do you need that a person needs mental health -- help and not a jail cell?
LEMON: So, you obviously you think that the officers responded to this call they needed to be trained more at least that they did have training in dealing with people with mental illness but they should follow that more. I want to know what the family wants because I had read your Instagram post here when you talked about it.
LEMON: And I just put it all, Chris, and then I'll ask you the question I won't read it. But at the end you say, "This is not a curse, but a prayer, rest in peace, Amen." This is tough for you. What do you with -- what do you guys want?
OLADAPO: You know, we just -- we really just want justice. We want to know why Matthew died. You know, I was going through his records and he paid for a year's subscription for his play station 4. He thought he was going to live, you know, he was ready for 2015. I was ready to share 2015 with my brother, you know, and simply taking this kid away from us is not acceptable.
[22:55:03] We invested way too much love, way too much love, you know, on him. So, take my brother from me just for absolutely no reason. I don't see a reason. You can't give me enough reason to actually accept his death because I'm still processing it every day.
I feel like I just woke up from a 27-year-old slumber. You know, I'm Nigerian, I was brought up as a Nigerian, and I -- our culture, we are very reserved.
OLADAPO: We come to America for looking for a better life and education and everything else. You know, we insert ourselves to be law abiding citizens and simply understanding what's going on in America now, has made me an African-American because I have to reprogram myself to really understand what's going.
LEMON: Yes, Chris...
OLADAPO: I never knew, you know, this is how America treats people. Killing people and just not talking about it. You know, it's been four months. I would like to know what happened to Matthew.
LEMON: Yes. You've got to know -- you've got no answers and we're going to keep on...
OLADAPO: Zero answers.
LEMON: ... we're going to keep on this and we want you to come back and tell us. I want to thank both of you and also the Chatham County Sheriffs today, police statement saying that they've regrets and they are investigating.
Thanks to both of you. We'll be right back.
OLADAPO: I appreciate it, Don.
O'MARA: Thank you, Don.
[23:00:05] LEMON: That's it for us tonight. Thanks for watching. See you back here tomorrow night. "AC360 starts right now.