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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Belgium Raises Its Terror Threat Level; French President: France Is At War; New French Airstrikes in Syria; Reports: Terrorists Rented Apartment Outside Paris; At Least 24 Governors Against Syrian Refugees; New Photos Of Wanted Eighth Paris Terror Suspect; American Student Killed Family Shares Memories. Aired 9-10p ET
Aired November 16, 2015 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. If you were just joining us, it is early morning here in Paris, a lot is still unfolding almost by the moment through the plaza where we're standing is quiet after a very busy day and even though the Eiffel Tower tonight looks out over city that is deep in mourning. It is also standing tall in the country now at war around the clock.
Down below in command centers and police stations, situation rooms and army barracks across the country, tens of thousands of people have been coming and going making arrests seizing weapons, searching for fugitives connectives to the killings here.
In just the last two hours, authorities have raised the terror alert level in Belgium apparently the staging area for the plot. We know that now. They've released new photos, here they are of the key fugitive. The so-called eight terrorists -- the eighth terrorist who they are looking for.
French's President Francois Hollande addressed both houses of parliament only the third time that kind of address has been made since 1848 saying the country is at war with ISIS. French war planes apparently carrying out a new wave of air strikes on Raqqa in Syria tonight and we'll get a report from Northern Iraq shortly.
We also saw a video apparently from ISIS threatening Washington with Paris style attacks and we heard from the CIA Director Brennan admitting the group could have more plots in the pipeline.
Late tonight, Defense Secretary Ashton Carter called lone-wolf attacks the most likely imminent threat to the United States -- the most immediate threat in the U.S. And also late tonight, we've learned that the killers may have been living in an apartment just outside the city in the week ahead of the attacks here on Friday night. So there's a lot to get here starting with Nic Robertson with the latest on the investigation. Nic? NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, that fourth terrorist suspect's still -- the eighth, rather, terrorist suspect Salah Abdulselam still on the loose. French police describe him as dangerous. They say that people should not approach him. Belgium authorities also hunting for him as well, that international arrest warrant out for him.
The apartment that police raided in the Northeastern Suburb of Paris a little over -- a little under 24 hours ago has revealed to the police we understand that this apartment was used by the eight terror attackers in the week prior to their deadly attacks here just before the weekend on Friday night.
Their concern is now, how did that sort of slip by, if you will, without notice or without people drawing it to the police's attention? They spent a lot of time in that apartment searching it earlier today. No doubt as the investigation goes forward they'll want to be on a talk to local, to neighbors of that apartment and very likely to the person that rented it out to the terrorists.
One of the terrorist suspects, Ibrahim Abdulselam was the man who rented it, he died after launching his gun attack when restaurants here detonated his suicide vest on Friday night, Anderson.
COOPER: And Nic, obviously there's a lot we still don't know at this hour and I think one of the things that I haven't heard anything about and I don't think is publicly known yet is where the suicide devices were actually put together? Where they were assembled or whether it was here in that apartment in Paris, whether it was in Belgium and then that they were brought here or whether somewhere else and like most importantly who actually had the capabilities to make them, to put them together?
ROBERTSON: What we know from French officials so far is that at least six of the eight went to Syria. This type of bomb is complex to make. It is an unstable explosive TATP. It can be made with the products that you can find in stores in Paris or in Belgium. So it could have been made in either those places but the fact that six members of this team of eight terrorists had been to Syria gives an indication that perhaps one or several of them had learned how to make the explosives.
Were all the vests made at some other apartment somewhere else brought to this apartment, handed out to the different terrorists in the days prior to the attack where they taught how to use them and that's a problem, none of that is clear but what we've seen previous circumstances generally the way that al-Qaeda used to do this and Isis takes some of its pages out of that playbook is one member will know how to make the bomb.
[21:05:01] He will bring in the others and he will instruct them how to use it and potentially that's what the police may be looking at here as well, Anderson.
COOPER: All right. Nic Robertson, thank very so much.
More now on the manhunt. The accomplices, the mastermind, and of course the possibility of additional attacks that could be in the works.
Joining us is the CNN National Security Analyst Juliette Kayyem, former Assistant Secretary of Homeland -- for Homeland Security, also Senior International Correspondent Clarissa Ward is with me here in Paris as the CNN Terrorism Analyst Paul Cruickshank.
Paul this eighth terrorist who we've been talking about, it's not clear if he himself also has a suicide vest though all seven of the others did so it's very possible that he has a vest, as well which is one of the reason why authorities would not want people to get anywhere near him.
PAUL CRUICKSHANK, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: That's exactly right. When they found the car that he was in -- the abandoned stay as in a suburb of Paris they didn't find any explosive vest. So there's a missing explosive vest.
Now, he drove back to the next day he was picked up and was driven back towards Belgium and they eventually got into Belgium after being stopped on the boarder for a few minutes and so, you know, I think perhaps likely he's in Belgium right now maybe even in the Brussels, Molenbeek area, his hometown. I think that's probably linked to this terror threat going up now, the terrorist threat level in Brussels.
COOPER: It's also intriguing because he was pulled over. There were two other people who initial report said were in his vehicle at the time. I don't know if law enforcement has their names but it would be very interesting to know who they are and what if any connection they have to these attacks.
CRUICKSHANK: My understanding is that they were arrested eventually in Molenbeek.
COOPER: So they've already been...
CRUICKSHANK: And they actually came all the way to Paris that night to pick him up and then bring him back to Belgium because he -- that the investigators think that he was meant to die and something went wrong where he backed out, didn't manage to explode himself and say he then gets driven all the way back to Belgium.
COOPER: And Clarissa, I mean one of the think we've on the last hour and it's not clear yet, it's just how large an operation this was? How big or the consent of circles going on this not just the -- we know the eight who were, you know, directly involved in the attacks but how many other people are there who helped them, who help organize things?
CLARISSA WARD, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And that's exactly the question that at the stage French officials just don't seem to know. Look at the amount of raids we have today, more than 150 raids, 23 people arrested more than 100 people under house arrest. These raids were taking place all over the country.
Officials don't seem to have a good sense at this stage of how large this network is but from everyone who I have spoken to, one thing is clear, Anderson, there is no way that eight men on their own could have pulled this off. The network had to be larger. There were people who were helping to orchestrate and facilitate this complex and sophisticated attack.
COOPER: And Juliette, you just wrote an article on cnn.com. You point out that the magnitude and the sophistication of this attack is particularly troubling too not only because of the number of terrorists involved but also the number of people that -- to Clarissa's point who knew what was going to happen, who must have known.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, FORMER U.S. ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR HOMELAND SECURITY: Yeah and I would agree there that it's just not that eight. There is just too much activity. It had to work perfectly from their perspective. It clearly -- it almost did except for that one vest and what you're seeing now, and just speaking over Clarissa's point that there's going to -- this is, you know, this is a sweep. This is what's going on.
There are going to be multiple arrests that lead to nothing in the hope that maybe one of those guys is the guy they are looking for and this is not just in France. Right now we have activity in France, Germany. This investigation is going to link to Syria and Iraq.
The bulk is Belgium and that's just, you know, six countries right there and we're only three or four days since the attacks. So this is going to take a long time to put the pieces together. In the meanwhile, we have to assume that others knew that was going to happen and that they had plans past last Friday and I think that's what is making everyone so nervous.
COOPER: Clarissa, you've covered that the refugee, the migrant crisis. I was on Lesbos about a month or so ago watching Syrian refugees and others coming as well more than as many as 1 million may have come already to Germany and other parts of Europe this year alone.
The idea that one of this terrorist has believe to have come through the Island of Leros on October third and basically come in with legitimate refugees, with legitimate migrants, it really does cast the poll for all of the refugees migrants which is exactly what ISIS wants because they were opposed to all these people leaving Syria and other parts of the area.
WARD: This is possibly the greatest or not the greatest but this is possibly one of the most unintended tragedies here or consequence of this is that the hundreds of thousands of refugees who are fleeing the violence, who were fleeing this specific type of violence, senseless killing are now in a position where many countries will be afraid to take them in, where there will be a real head wind for more right wing groups in different countries to say that they are dangerous, that they shouldn't be allowed into the country and again, just reminding everyone that they are fleeing this type of violence.
[21:10:05] And we don't yet know was this a real passport? Was this really a refugee? Was this a European citizen posing as a refugee?
COOPER: And Paul, what's so interesting about terrorism is that is exactly one of the objectives of terrorism, it's a weapon of the weak designed to against a bigger power to get an over reaction that brings more people to the cause of the weak.
CRUICKSHANK: I think that's absolutely right, Anderson. And, you know, when you're looking at the nexus between refugees and terrorism, I think count the number of cases on the fingers of one hand in terms of the number of cases of refugees where there has been that connection to terrorism.
COOPER: Out of some...
CRUICKSHANK: Out of hundreds of thousands who are coming through. It's 20 minutes ago and there was at face when the Italians arrested somebody that there was a belief he was link to the border attack in Tunisia coming on a boat from North Africa. There was case that investigating in Germany who has somebody boasting that he will be an ISIS spotter in Syria but raid, beyond that not many cases at all. And, you know, so this has been I think over blown as an issue.
COOPER: Paul Cruickshank, thank you, Clarissa Ward and Juliette Kayyem as well.
Coming up next, we're going to have a lot more on the investigation. Hear more on and the latest that we have been learning and more on the refugee crisis in the second. And also the latest, in new airstrikes in Syria as well as the larger and tougher question how to defeat ISIS long-term.
COOPER: The moments of panic that occurred here over the weakened in this plaza as people fled thinking that some shots had been fired. Thankfully, they had not been fired. It was basically a rumor that spread. Police were yelling telling people to get away, however, no one here -- no one here pretends that what happened on Friday will not happen again.
France's president today said this country is at war with ISIS. The French air force starting over the weekend putting those words into action striking ISIS target in their self-proclaimed capital Raqqa in Syria.
There are now reports of new strikes underway right now and Nick Paton Walsh is monitoring developments from Erbil in Iraq. He joins us now.
Nic, what are you hearing?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So far since about 10:00 local time that's about six hours ago, activists inside the city of Raqqa, Raqqa slaughter silently. We do have an anti-ISIS agenda but have proven reliable certainly last night and in the past in reporting airstrikes terrorist saying there have been a total of seven strikes in the last six hours predominantly on the southern side of the city.
Now, we don't know who are behind these strikes. It could be the coalition by American jets predominantly, it could be the French and the second night after last night heavy bombardment of 20 explosions. It could be the Russians potentially too. And the slim chance as well, it maybe the Syrian regime that they have been predominantly less interested in hitting ISIS targets.
As I said we don't know precisely what has being hit. We do know that is about a third so far. What we saw it last night many asking about the targets. The French hit last night in that 20 separate strikes about 24 in fact though accounted through on the ground by this activists.
Last night we were told it was sort of the outskirts of the center of the city that were hit predominantly but also two main targets in the center called the stadium and the museum that I do this job anymore. This is still sort of basically being used as headquarters and jails for ISIS but ISIS fighters said yesterday in daylight to be less visible on the street say they have long had to learn to adapt to drones in the sky above them. Remember, there has been months of strikes in and around Raqqa.
In fact last night also, one coalition airstrike too hit Raqqa as well and the three more actually an (inaudible) slightly to the northwest of that area but it seems tonight we are now in the second night in a row of a pretty substantial number of airstrikes. Seven is normally far above a normal night you might expect to hear over Raqqa, Anderson.
COOPER: All right. Nick Paton Walsh, appreciate it. Thank you.
Well, let's bring in Bob Baer, former CIA Officer and CNN National Security Analyst, also, retired Air Force Colonel Rick Francona, the CNN Military Analyst.
Bob, these air strikes, whether they be in Raqqa or somewhere else, are they enough do you believe?
ROBERT BAER, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Well, Anderson, I think they have fairly well proved to be useless. We've been bombing these groups, al-Qaeda and now Isis for the last 14 years that the movement seems to be -- the expanding whether they are contracting.
Yes, we have them on the run in Northern Iraq and the rest of it but at the end of the day, these movements have simply don't care and you can't behead them with bombing strikes or drone strikes.
This is a band-aide on a gaping wound and it's just not at the end of the day, it's not going to get us anything. You know, I don't see why it would work now and I don't think the French will have any better luck than we've had.
COOPER: And yet, obviously, Colonel Francona, I mean the concern about large amount of U.S. forces or even an increase of U.S. forces on the ground which is to President Obama's point which is better just makes the U.S. more to focus of ISIS attacks and perhaps alienates more people on the ground.
Rick FRANCONA, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Well, that said and I'll go along with who Bob said that these attacks have not really accomplished the goal. The air campaign has been anemic at best because we haven't been able to strike the targets we need to hit.
Now, there's a variety of reasons for that. Part of it is the command and control instruction very cumbersome. Other reason is that we are absolutely adverse to any civilian casualties at all.
So the pilots often return with ammunitions still on the aircraft. So we're not really dropping the bombs we need to. What we found, though, is we can be more effective when we are trying to take land back from ISIS. That requires a ground component and as the president said, we're not going to use American troops so we've got to find some ground force that we can use be that the Kurds, be that the Iraqi army.
[21:20:02] The Iraqi army has proven itself to be utterly useless so far. So we find who we can use. I think we need to be using the Kurds only then will the air campaign be more effective. What we're seeing in Iraq right now I think is mainly symbolic especially the French strikes. The French want to go and send a message to ISIS that you struck us, we're striking you back but it's not going to change the battle on the ground.
COOPER: Bob Baer, when you hear those in the United States who support 10,000 U.S. forces on the ground or more, what do you think?
BAER: Well, the problem is the Islamic State wants us to send forces there. They want to draw us into a quagmire. They don't care if we move into Raqqa, send the 82nd airborne in.
They have this apocalyptic view of the world that if they can actually fight the American military in Iraq and Syria that they can win. Now, I don't think they can but the point is, are we ready to commit and the president is right and then what do we do about Yemen?
That would take, you know, 500,000 soldiers to occupy that and I just hope the Americans have the appetite for it to this ground forces but Rick is absolutely right, the one group that's done anything is the Kurds but the problem is they can only go so far. They can go into Sinjar but I don't think they'll be able to go and take Mosul and they certainly won't be able to go down the Ramadi and take it back.
And Rick is right, that the Iraqi army has proved worthless and we're not going to get any course anything out of Bashar al-Assad in the Syrian army. This is pretty much a stalemate at this point.
COOPER: Lieutenant Colonel Francona, I mean, there are those in the U.S. who support the idea of a no fly zone in Syria for humanitarian reasons as well as a strategic reasons the president talked about that today and said when you drill down on it when you really look at it, it's just -- it's not feasible.
FRANCONA: The time for a no fly zone has passed. That ship has sailed. When the Russians put their forces in there, there is no way we're going to be able to enforce a new fly zone even if we declare it.
If you declare it, you have to enforce it. We're not in a position to do that. I don't think we want to get into a shooting war with the Russian Aircraft over Syria. I think maybe we need to step back, look at what the Russians are doing and look what we're doing and I know we're deconflicting with them now. That's probably as good as it's going to get. No fly zone, not going to happen.
COOPER: All right, Colonel Francona, good to have you on, Bob Baer as well.
Just ahead, growing fears tonight about the flood of Syrian refugees that apparently providing cover for just one terrorist who struck Paris, that's what we know at this point. What's being done to screen them as they arrive in Europe? We'll take a look at that when we come back.
COOPER: Rightly or wrongly the terror attacks here in Paris are confirming many people's fears about the growing amount of refugees, the growing number of refugees and migrants from Syria and other places who are coming to Europe.
One of the suicide bombers who attacked the Stade de France on Friday is believed to have made his way from Paris to the Island of Leros in Greece last month on October 3rd passing himself off as a legitimate Syrian refugee.
The backlash against refugees is playing out back in the United States over the last two days at least 24 U.S. governors have announced plans to block Syrian refugees from resettling in their states. The U.S. has accepted just over 2,100 Syrian refugees since the Civil War begun in 2011 but now making new lives in 36 states.
Gary Tuchman is in Ohio tonight with one family story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Omar Alawadb is landscaping in a new land. He is from Syria and came to the United States only two months ago.
How do you like the United States so far?
OMAR ALAWADB, SYRIAN REFUGEE: [Speaking in Foreign Language]. It's very beautiful.
TUCHMAN: Alawadb has three children and a wife who is expecting a fourth child but the end of the month. They lived in the city of home Syria, battered and destroyed during the war. They fled the country and went to Jordan and applied to come to the United States. They got the OK to move to Ohio in September.
What do you want to do with your life in the United States?
ALAWADB: [Speaking in Foreign Language]
TUCHMAN: He says if God willing I want to work and God willing my kids will study and have a good future. The Alawadbs are five of 47 Syrians who have immigrated to the Toledo, Ohio area since the Syrian civil war began in 2011.
The whole state of Ohio has a total of 76 Syrians who have arrived since then. Now the governor of Ohio says he doesn't want more Syrians resettling. Corine Dehabey is with an organization that helps to resettle new immigrants into Toledo including the Syrians.
CORINE DEHABEY, U.S. TOGETHER: I have the feeling that our question and the governor's question and the ability of the American system-- the American government because they are screening back home, you know, the homeland security are doing intensive screening on the Syrian refugees or any other refugees coming to the United States.
TUCHMAN: Do you understand how some Americans are concerned about Syrians coming into this country?
ALAWADB: [Speaking in Foreign Language]
TUCHMAN: I understand, he says. There is a level of fear people will have, but they wouldn't bring me here unless they knew I was a good person and knew my background.
There are many people and businesses in this community helping with the arrival of the Syrian immigrants. This Middle Eastern Market has hired two of the recently arrived Syrian men and is about to hire a third.
Alawadb will continue working for the landscaping company for now but hopes to get a job as a carpenter, which is what he did in Syria. He and his wife are trying to learn English, which is not nearly as easy as it is for his children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.
TUCHMAN: Perfect job.
[21:30:00] Their father says he does not want to go back to Syria and wants to say this to anyone listening.
ALAWADB: [Speaking in Foreign Language]
TUCHMAN: I am thankful to the American government and the American people for me being here.
(END VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: Gary, what has his reception been like in the community when they are told a Syrian immigrant is in their town?
TUCHMAN: Well, unlike these children, Anderson, Omar speak almost no English. So if people are muttering stuff behind his back he may not know from what he does know. He says he seen no antagonism and no mean things said to his face. He said people here have been very kind. It's a matter like he says Ohio has some of the nicest people he has ever met, Anderson?
COOPER: Well, Gary, appreciate the report. Again, one of the attackers here is believed to have entered mainland Europe after arriving by boat on Greek Island of Leros on October 3rd. It's an entry point for many refuges fleeing Syria's civil war. Frankly, a lot of them are coming through Turkey and going to the islands in and around Greece. That's the first land they actually make landfall on in Europe. An overwhelming flood of people. Arwa Damon joins us now from the Island of Leros.
Can you describe the situation you're at right now? How many refugees are coming across the border still into Europe, particularly on that island because as it gets colder and more difficult to cross, a lot of people I talked to last month on the Island of Lesbos said they thought the number would go down but I heard reports in recent weeks that the numbers are still kind of remaining constant.
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Not just remaining constant but actually increasing, Anderson. And there was that thinking that the numbers would begin to decrease, especially with the winter and crossing becoming even more dangerous but they have it now. This Island Leros in particular is one of the crossing areas but not a main one. It's a tiny island population 8,000 and according to the mayor about 500 arriving compared to Lesbos as you mentioned there where thousands upon thousands arrive on a regular basis.
And just to give you an idea, according to Frontex, in the first 10 months of 2015, some 540,000 people crossed from Turkey into Greece. That's 13 times the same number that made the crossing. During that same time period in 2014.
COOPER: So what's the screening process like for Assyrian person or Afghani or somebody else who's arrived first on Leros?
DAMON: Well, it's the same as it is on any other islands. You come in, you register, your fingerprinted if you have an ID that's great. If you don't, people investigators interrogators try to determine as best they can that you are in fact the individual who you claim to be. it's a far from perfect system and that's why the mayor was saying they wanted more Frontex representatives here on the ground to help them with the screening process, people that have more experience than the coast guard and the police here do have because as you were saying, they are one of the Paris attackers did come through here on a fake doctor's Syrian documented.
He was fingerprinted but at this stage no red flags were raised and that is of course of great concern and more and more people will be capitalizing on this refugee in migrant route.
COOPER: Yeah Frontex is the frontier agencies where to takes the fingerprinting but on Lesbos, they were having a problem, they were so overwhelmed, they didn't have enough machines to use, to electronically take the fingerprint and have it entered automatically in a database. They were getting fingerprints on pieces of paper and the question was will those actually be entered into a database? Is that the same problem that they've been having in Leros?
DAMON: It is one of the problems yes and they are asking for additional and more sophisticated screening. But the other issue with the database, Anderson, is that unless there is a preexisting criminal record that the individual has unless they're cross, you know, country cooperation, which there doesn't really exist between say a database in Europe and the Syrian government, then really even if you do try to reference these fingerprints, that's a bit of a moot point and that is just one of the many issues here but then you run into this bigger picture problem, and that is trying to reconcile this fear that more people will be trying to capitalize, exploit this route and the polite of tens of thousands who continue to come through, who continue to flee the very same violence that it is that Paris went through. And these are people, families, children, who have no choice because they see that kind of violence back in their homelands every single day, Anderson.
COOPER: Yeah, no end in sight to those numbers of people coming. Arwa, thank you.
[21:35:00] Just ahead we'll go to a predominantly Muslim neighborhood here in Paris to find out why some young people are attracted to a group like ISIS.
COOPER: Authorities say that many of the young men that carried out Friday night attacks were born and raised in Europe. So for all the focus, it's been on the one terrorist who snuck in with refugees, the largest number of these terrorists, the eight terrorist who attacked on Friday night, most of them were born here. Many of them lived in Belgium. The question of course is why these home grown terrorists were so drawn to extremism violence. Why would somebody who was raised and born in the society turn against it. We went to a Muslim neighborhood in Paris with Maajid Nawaz, former extremists himself to find some answers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
How big of a problem does France have?
MAAJID NAWAZ, AUTHOR: RADICAL: MY JOURNEY OUT OF ISLAMIST EXTREMISM: I think France is a significant problem when it comes to the successful integration of its North African origin and Muslim origin population who for all purposes by the government are considered French by law but in practice, I'd question just how successful the integration process has been.
COOPER: Is there a generational thing here because often times you hear from parents who say look, I had no idea my child had become so radicalized.
NAWAZ: Absolutely. I mean those who are first generation immigrants who arrived to Europe rarely those from that demographic who join Islamist organizations or Jihadist organizations. Usually it's those born and raised. You know and it's something we try insist on that we don't lose focus on, that is Europe has a home grown extremism problem. Yes, they may use refugees close to sneak themselves in. But essentially what we know so far is these were European citizens.
COOPER: So how does one counter it. I mean how do you stop a new generation of people from being attracted to this? Is it a question of -- I mean, some people point to lack of opportunities but it can't be just that.
NAWAZ: It can't be just that. And I think there is a rhetoric out there which needs to be challenged because of a lack of jobs or because of a lack of certain...
COOPER: You hear that repeatedly.
NAWAZ: ... it's not that. You know, it's more complex than that. That's too simplistic. And that's why we must look at that, too, in case there are some elements of that that come into play but actually more so than that, if a culture developed, if the anti establishment site as of today is jihadism like it used to be Che Guevarra, if they're wearing Bin Laden on their t-shirts -- they used to wear Che Guevarra it's become a brand and that brand is attracting people in its own right. It's got all the symbolisms, iconography around it, the myth of success that ISIS is able to propagate through social media that they are on the march and they are constantly winning.
(Speaking In Foreign Language)
COOPER: What is the appeal for young people, you think?
UNIFDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking in Foreign Language)
They're listened to, given a role, a place, they're given to understand that they will become men whereas in France they've destroyed their hope, they've been disappointed.
COOPER: I guess what I don't understand is if you were born here and you grow up in this society, where does the hate come from?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (Speaking In Foreign Language)
Hate is when society doesn't speak to you, when your parents don't talk to you. When you are 17 or 18 and you have no hope in life. You don't know where you are going, no job.
COOPER: That's what you would say. NAWAZ: So we could have stopped anyone randomly and came across
somebody who said, pretty much what I expected to hear. It's the what I refer to as the tired old rhetoric. With respect to the man, you know, it's the half truth to talk about unemployment, just to talk about, you know.
COOPER: Foreign policy.
NAWAZ: Foreign policy.
COOPER: Saying that oh, well, it's France and foreign policy or it's unemployment...
NAWAZ: In the end it's France's fault and not their fault. That's the conclusion that makes people more angry, that society because everyone is blaming France.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And Maajid join us now. I mean, we should also talk about the religious component to this. I mean if there is undeniable a religious component. Obviously it's a sensitive subject. How do you see it?
NAWAZ: I think there is undeniably a link and relationship. It's as unhelpful to say that this is everything to do with Islam or which is Islam per se as it is to say it has nothing to do with Islam. I think to recognize there's a relationship between the way which Islam is politicized and interpreted to justify modern day theocracy.
To recognize that in power's reforming Muslim voices. Earlier, Anderson, I mentioned where I agreed with President Obama speech and that was in his focus to say let's not have a huge backlash against the refugees.
Where I'm more concerned about his speech is where he didn't focus on this element. He didn't, unfortunately, name the challenge for what it is. When dealing with Islamist Extremism, with anyone with an ideology, 6,000 people don't just get up and join ISIS from Europe in a vacuum. In fact, ISIS didn't radicalized those 6,000 people. I'm going to say something perhaps body council intuitive. ISIS did not radicalized those 6,000.
COOPER: Who did?
NAWAZ: They were already radicalized. They were primed. When ISIS did come along and say right, you want a caliphate? We just declared one. They already wanted a caliphate because for decades in Europe Islamic groups have been running around in unchecked (inaudible) Muslim communities convincing them that we need a caliphate.
And so there are -- ISIS itself is an offshoot of al-Qaeda which is an offshoot of many Muslim organizations that have been working in Europe unchecked and what we failed to recognize is that this is a fully blown Jihadist insurgency. There are people primed overnight that the French authorities say they are monitoring 11,000 people. Where does that number come from? Unless insurgency going on.
COOPER: So President Obama today talked about what people in the Muslim community need to do. I'm wondering what you thought, I mean does he go far enough and are you seeing that within the Muslim community?
NAWAZ: A lot more needs to be done on this front and it starts by recognizing and we can't defeat something or challenge something we can't name. So it does start with that. I worry sometimes...
COOPER: Naming radicalism.
NAWAZ: Naming, exactly the ideology. The Islamist ideology with the name, yes.
The legal response, the war response, you know, we cannot shoot our way out of the problem. It has to be ultimately a civil society push back against the brand and against the fail of this ideology.
COOPER: And but that's not something that happens overnight and that's not something that even a lot of people really understand. I mean it's not as satisfying as, you know, bombing the hell out of somebody.
NAWAZ: No at all. And actually we didn't get here overnight. As I was saying, ISIS didn't right didn't radicalized these young angry residents. They were primed by decades of (inaudible) on grassroots. This problem has been festering and boiling.
COOPER: Maajid, I appreciate you're being with us here. Thank you very much.
NAWAZ: Thank you very much, delighted.
COOPER: Just ahead, an extraordinary story. A doctor and a former columnist whose co-workers at Charlie Hebdo were murdered by terrorists just 10 months ago, we met him back then and on Friday night when terrorist strike again. He was one of the first responder just as you at Charlie Hebdo. Tonight, he shares what he saw this Friday. And talks about his determination to carry on, to go on living despite of all he and other French have been through.
COOPER: Welcome back. All weekend and all day today, we have seen the people of Paris standing together in their pain trying to hold on to hope. And they have been through this before. We know that is been 10 months since the attacks on Charlie Hebdo in a Jewish grocery.
[21:50:02] Days after terrorists stormed the magazine office and killed 12 people, I talked to a man, named Patrick Pelloux, a doctor, who was also a columnist at "Charlie Hebdo." Here's what he told me back then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATRICK PELLOUX, FIRST RESPONDER TO PARIS ATTACKS: (Speaking in Foreign Language)
There were madmen that attacked a newspaper, that attacked a way of expression, drawing, caricatures, which is an artistic form. And they wanted to scare my country, they want to scare democracy. Therefore, we cannot be afraid. As President Obama said, Charlie Hebdo must continue. We're not dead. We're not dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, "Charlie Hebdo" has continued, though Mr. Pelloux no longer works there. He's now focusing on his medical work. On Friday night, he was one of the first responders when his city was attacked again. I spoke to him earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: The night of the attacks, where were you?
PELLOUX: (Speaking in Foreign Language).
I was at the call center of the emergency service in Paris. We coordinated the whole system and afterwards we sent the maximum number of doctors and first aiders to the scene. We took the victims and sent them as quick as possible to the hospitals. We succeeded in opening 60 operating theaters between 10:00 P.M and 1:00 A.M. to try and save the maximum number of people.
COOPER: What sort of injuries were you seeing? What sort of wounds?
PELLOUX: (Speaking in Foreign Language).
War wounds. That's why when the president of the Republic said, "We are at war. We are at war." Wounds by bullets, by bullets of automatic gunfire, wounds from explosions of bombs from explosive belts where they had put in addition nuts and bolts and metal parts inside, project at the other victims.
COOPER: I understand you saw one woman who had nine gunshot wounds.
PELLOUX: (Speaking in Foreign Language).
Yes. There was one woman who had nine bullet holes on her sides, but I am not sure if she is still alive. I am not sure.
COOPER: Did she make it?
PELLOUX: (Speaking in Foreign Language).
I believe that she died.
COOPER: For you to see this yet again, what was it like?
PELLOUX: (Speaking in Foreign Language). That's not very important in fact. What I saw at Charlie Hebdo and what I saw here are two different things, I did my job to serve the country the best to serve the victims the best possible. In fact, I declared from my feelings with regards to what happened. We have to serve our country and the victims. Afterwards there is the work of the police and the Army which is very important that I support but I have forgotten my own feelings so as to serve the best possible.
COOPER: There is much defiance. Many people here speak of defiance continuing live and to see a cafe open and people sitting outside so soon after.
PELLOUX: (Speaking in Foreign Language).
Yes. It's the resistance.
COOPER: This is the resistance?
PELLOUX: (Speaking Foreign Language).