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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Growing Chaos Inside the Republican Party and Serious Talk About a Brokered Convention in Cleveland; News in Investigation of Mass Shooting in San Bernardino; ISIS Finance Minister Killed in Air Strike; Aired 8-9p ET
Aired December 11, 2015 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:06] JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Good evening. I'm Jim Sciutto in tonight for Anderson.
And tonight, growing chaos inside the Republican Party and serious talk about a brokered convention in Cleveland. Donald Trump is largely the man behind the chaos, of course. We are waiting for him to speak in Des Moines, Iowa. We will see if he throws a punch at his presidential rival Ted Cruz which he has been hinting all day that he might very well do.
After months of playing nice on the campaign trail, Senator Cruz questioned Trump's fitness to serve as president in comments that he made at a private fundraiser. The audio, however, was leaked. As I said, Trump has signaled he may now hit back.
With less than two months until the Iowa caucuses, Mr. Trump is still leading in most polls, but it's now also an open secret that Republican officials including party chairman Reince Priebus are actively talking about the prospect of a battle on the convention floor including at a dinner this week as first reported by "the Washington Post."
Joining me now is Sam Clovis. He is Donald Trump's national campaign co-chairman and policy advisor.
Mr. Clovis, it is good to have you on tonight. Are you concerned as you look at the polls, see Donald Trump losing ground to Ted Cruz there in Iowa where you are tonight. Senator Cruz getting key endorsements, as well, at least one poll showing him leading there. How concerned is that for you?
SAM CLOVIS, TRUMP NATIONAL CAMPAIGN CO-CHAIRMAN AND POLICY ADVISOR: Well, I think it's just, you know, typical we are 51 days out from the polls, Jim. I don't really look at this as anything we need to get upset about. I think one of the things that we ought to be looking at is the consistency of the performance that Mr. Trump has had in the state of Iowa. We had Ben Carson in the led out here and we had Scott Walker in the led out here. We have others that have taken the lead from time to time. And I think what is really going to be, the only poll that really counts is what happens on February 1st when we go into the caucus locations and cast our ballot there.
SCIUTTO: So, Mr. Trump, once again saying that he will not rule out a third party bid if the Republican Party doesn't treat him properly. Can you clarify for us what does that mean exactly? What is the bar of being treated properly, exactly?
CLOVIS: Well, I think really what it comes down to is the idea what we are seeing here is not so much out of the Republican national committee, but what we are hearing from Republican operatives, people part of the establishment that Donald Trump's campaign, as I've said on this program many times before, is an existential threat to the power base of a lot of those people that live inside the beltway and they suck out of the trough inside the beltway and I think that this campaign and others have really put a huge cramp in their style. I think that's what you're hearing, as you are hearing most of the barking of the dogs out there that are afraid they are not going to get fed.
SCIUTTO: I want to turn once again to Mr. Trump's proposal to ban Muslims. I was on the air live, in fact, as it came out earlier this week. You have heard from a number of people in both parties that it is not just a bad idea but that it literally puts the lives of American soldiers at risk overseas. That it gives ISIS a propaganda tool. I hear this from very serious people both inside and outside government, inside the intelligence community, the counter terror community.
You are a senior policy advisor to the campaign. How do you respond to those criticisms?
CLOVIS: Well, I think that you have to take a look what other people are saying, too. I mean, to think that we would go out and put forward a policy that we think would threaten and put people's lives in danger is ludicrous and the very notion of that is absolute nonsense.
So I'm not accusing you, Jim. I'm just saying that that's the cost in me. And the drum beat that we see out there is the fact that the American people believe Donald Trump. And I think that all you have to do is take a look at the numbers and they believe him.
I come from 29 years of wearing the uniform of this country. I worked in a lot of these similar areas a lot of these people are talking about out there. And my assessment of the situation there that we ought to some form of conditional operation in place so that we have some sense of confidence to what the American government is doing is betting people properly to come to this country.
All you have to do is listen to the news on your network. And all you have to do is listen to that news and we hear this very big issue after issue being raised about what is going on in our visa program, in our visa waiver program, in the visa lottery program. All of this programs need to be examined. And certainly, it just seems prudent to us that we would do that.
SCIUTTO: I have to ask you to be fair and I'm certainly aware of the polling numbers. But you say that this idea is non-sense. I don't hear it from partisans. I hear it from people inside the counter terror community who are fighting this battle every day. They say, not only not practical, they say possibly a threat, possibly a threat to national security to raise that kind of idea in light of the way groups like ISIS will take advantage of it.
[20:05:24] CLOVIS: Well, Jim, it's getting awful loud in here and I don't know how much longer we can do this, but I want to let you know that I think that those are people that have certainly, they have the best interest of everybody at steak, so do we. And we are not going to do anything that's going to go out here and put people's lives in jeopardy. And to suggest that is frankly irresponsible. So I'm just not going to accept that, OK? I'm just not going to accept that.
SCIUTTO: Sam Clovis, that is your right. Thank you for giving us the time tonight there. Certainly a lot for us to talk about.
Joining me now, chief national correspondent and anchor of CNN's "INSIDE POLITICS," that is John King, of course. Also CNN political analyst Maggie Haberman. She is the presidential campaign correspondent for "the New York Times."
So John, you hear there what Sam Clovis had to say, let's talk first about the challenge, the growing challenge from Ted Cruz, you know. You hear a lot of confidence from Sam Clovis. Do you think that's misplaced?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Sam worked (ph) for a long time. And it depends how you look at the composition of the electorate. And our new poll in Iowa, Donald Trump is way ahead. In a Mammoth poll Ted Cruz is a little bit ahead. They use a different methodology.
The question is a lot of Trump support are new voters, so people who are not regular participants in event like the Iowa Republican caucus. So it is not quite a primary. It is not quite like a Democratic rules. The question is can the Trump campaign get them to come out? Is the passion so great that they don't need nuts and bolts and da to of the new age of politics to get him the turnout? We are going to know the answer as Sam told you, Jim, in about 50 days when Iowa goes to the polls and votes.
This is -- Cruz is a classic Iowa candidate. Evangelical support. He is on the rise as Ben Carson comes down. Trump is more of an outside of the box. He is the passion candidate. He is not I ideological Republican. That's what make this one so unpredictable. And frankly, from our perspective, fascinating to watch.
SCIUTTO: Maggie, another thing fascinating to watch today was senator Ted Cruz doing what appeared to be damage control perhaps, tweeting that Donald Trump was -- is terrific after you broke the story of Cruz questioning Trump's judgment and predicting that Trump's campaign wouldn't stand the test of time. How concern do you think that Cruz is about getting on Trump's bad side?
MAGGIE HABERMAN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think he very much doesn't want to get on Donald Trump's bad side. I think that's what that tweet was about. I think that's what his campaign putting out a statements saying that our report was misleading about and then the audio emerged and I think people could hear from themselves what he said.
I think that Ted Cruz has run a very smart campaign this entire time. He has been trying very hard to position himself to appeal to the voters of two people, Donald Trump and Ben Carson. And he spoke about both of them in that audio tape and it was a question about judgment for both of them. He suggested that the judgment to be president is a quote-unquote "challenging question" for both of them.
Ben Carson, we have seen in polls seems to be fading. Donald Trump however has been holding strong in a lot. But to John's point, we don't know the composition of the electorate. If the electret looks sort of more traditional, I think you will see the way it has before. I think you will see Ted Cruz do very well. Donald Trump is depending on a lot of new voters. If those Trump voters do decide to show up but don't vote for Donald Trump, then Ted Cruz is hoping they would come to him.
SCIUTTO: So, John, I mean, we know the risks of placing a bet, really, on any polls. But particularly perhaps national polls, are state polls more reliable now that the voting particularly as we get close with voting weeks away because Trump certainly doing well in those two with possibility exception big exception for instance of Ted Cruz maybe gaining ground in Iowa?
KING: I will walk you through a little bit of history, Jim. If I have one Christmas wish, it is that after our big debate on Tuesday night, maybe we put less stock in national polls and more stock in those state polls. Let me explain why.
Let's go back to 2004. On this week in 2004, John Kerry was at six percent. Howard Dean was at 29 percent in the national poll. So John Kerry ended up being the Democratic nominee in 2004. At this week in 2003 and the campaign he was in fifth place nationally. So, you know, John Kerry was not your bet this week back then.
Let's look at the Democratic race in 2007. Hillary Clinton here is the Republican race in 2007 on this very day in 2007, Giuliani. You remember the Clinton-Giuliani race, right. It never happened. Obama went on to win and McCain went on to win in the year.
Let's look quickly at 2012. Again, on this day in 2012 Newt Gingrich was well ahead in the national polls in the Republican race. Mitt Romney running a distance second place. So the national polls, they are good to see trends. They are good to ask questions about issues. They are not so good in predicting nominees.
You asked me are the state polls more reliable? Most of the time, yes. This is Iowa 2007. By this point on this very weekend, Obama, Clinton. Senator Obama then was beginning to surge and past secretary Clinton and he went on he knocked senator Clinton at the time and he went on to win.
And in New Hampshire, Clinton was ahead on this day back in 2007 and she went on to win New Hampshire. So the state polls in Iowa - in New Hampshire had it right back in this. But here is a Republican example. Mike Huckabee, on this weekend in 2007 was ahead in Iowa, he went on to win. But four years ago, Newt Gingrich was well-ahead in Iowa on this weekend.
Look at Rick Santorum, Jim, down here at six percent this weekend four years ago. Rick Santorum went on to win Iowa. Mitt Romney came in pretty much a tie for second. So the state polls are more reliable, but it's -- we're in the unpredictable phase of the campaign. We got a couple more debates. Things getting interesting on the ground. So pay more attention to the state polls. I wouldn't place a bet on any poll. This has been wacky year.
[20:10:53] SCIUTTO: Things change. History shows that for sure.
So Maggie, big question on the weekend and certainly next week ahead of the CNN debate on Tuesday, what if anything, are Republicans going to do to try to knock Trump off course? We know the Republican establishment worried on a number of levels and yet chief rivals Cruz, Rubio, Carson, they don't seem to go after him too hard themselves?
HABERMAN: That's really the issue. There is an enormous amount of hand ringing from everybody about we want to stop Trump. And by everybody, I mean the establishment, his rivals, and some elite donors.
They have not done much to try to make that happen. You are seeing some people make moves. You saw Jeb Bush's super pact get aggressive. They did their first negative ad. It involve Trump, Rubio and Cruz. They are alluding the punch a little bit. But I think they thought that was the best way to go. You have John Kasich super pact also airing a lot of ads against Donald Trump, not clear yet that's moving the needle at all.
It is really going to take in the estimation of some establishment Republicans somebody landing or several somebodies landing a blow on stage with him on Tuesday. I think we can bet that's not going to be Ted Cruz based on what we saw today. The question is, is it a more aggressive Jeb Bush? Is it a Jeb Bush who can connect the punch harder? And does Marco Rubio do anything that is more direct? The other question, does Chris Christie assuming he's there end up doing something more direct?
Donald Trump takes a lot of his space in New Hampshire and he needs to make some gains soon. When you are Donald Trump, though, I would say one other point to John about the polling, when you are Donald Trump and your entire campaign message has been, you know, I'm winning because I'm a winner and I'm a winner because I'm winning in these polls, if his poll numbers do start to go down at any point, that is going to be the reaction to watch. And that might matter more than anything anyone else can do.
SCIUTTO: We will see a lot of people watching for that and it hasn't quite happened yet.
Maggie Haberman and John King, great to be on. Thanks so much.
And just ahead, Donald Trump is speaking now at the rally in Des Moines. We are going to go to him if he makes any news. Also ahead, what would a broker convention actually look like if none
of the Republican candidates collect enough delegates to clinch the nomination on their own? Tom foreman is going to break it down for us.
Plus, we have breaking news on the California terror attack investigation. The man who bought the guns used in that massacre says that he and the male shooter shared a hobby, making pipe bombs together.
[20:16:56] SCIUTTO: Welcome back.
As we said earlier, there are growing signs that the GOP is bracing for a battle in Cleveland next July, possible brokered convention. Donald Trump is speaking right now at a rally in Des Moines, Iowa. We will go to him live if he makes news there.
The Iowa caucuses now less than two months away. And the Republican Party fair to say disarray in large part because of Mr. Trump. Whether or not we see a fight on the GOP convention floor depends on what happens in the caucuses and primaries of course between January, February and June. Brokered conventions extremely rare, which is why we asked Tom Foreman to walk us through the basics, Tom joining me now.
So Tom, explain what exactly that means for a convention to be brokered.
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim, what it means is all these candidates could be a very wild ride and here is how it would happen.
Let's say in these early caucuses and primaries, nobody gets a commanding lead. Candidate A wins in Iowa and maybe B wins over in Carolina or in New Hampshire and maybe over here in Nevada candidates C wins, enough so that two or three or four candidates, all feel like they are still in the race. And that continues, state after state after state.
And suddenly coming into the actual convention with nobody in a dominating position. Already you would have what's called a contested convention. And then if you get through that first vote and nobody gets a majority of delegates then you have a brokered convention right then, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Now, some Trump supporters are floating the idea that could lead to a conspiracy in the Republican Party to cut their man out, that sort of mythical smoky room decision, although, I'm told in the quicken loans center, there is no smoking allowed, but is it possible that you could have a back room deal to keep him specifically out?
FOREMAN: It's not impossible. Let's talk about the brokering process first. If you talk about brokering, that means is that all these delegates are no longer tied to what the vote was like in their state. So now they can start wheeling and dealing to say maybe candidate A and candidate B can combine their delegates for one of them or maybe candidate C and candidate D could do this here.
No matter how you do it, eventually somebody gets enough people behind them to get over 50 percent. And as soon as that happens thanks becomes the candidate here. Doesn't matter there was brokered, that's the candidate.
So you are right. The Trump contenders out there are worried about that processing. This is a way of pushing him aside because the establishment doesn't want him. It could happen.
Let's look at how it might happen. Let's say that Trump came in and that in fact when he arrived, he had more delegates than anybody else. I'm not saying this real happen, but if it did happen. And let's say that even though we had more heat, he did not have enough to win out right. And more importantly, what if party leaders said he is at the ceiling of his support, he cannot get enough to win. Then they could hurry up that process of the dealing and the wheeling back stage and basically make sure that could be a consensus candidate emerges. In that case, you could have Donald Trump or frankly anybody else that came in with the most delegates coming in still being the loser because somebody else was selected.
But this is all theory right now, Jim. We have no idea if he is going to be the candidate. We have no idea if this is going to happen. We have to see actual voting before we see if a brokered convention is even possible.
[20:20:22] SCIUTTO: That's right. One thing we know it has been decades since the last time this happened.
Tom, thanks for explaining it to us.
I want to let out viewers know that Jake Tapper sat down just minutes ago with Donald Trump right before he took the stage in Des Moines, Iowa and he asked him about a brokered convention. Let's listen to his answer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE TAPPER, CNN CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: What do you think about idea of the brokered convention? When Dr. Ben Carson heard about it, he got very upset. He said it sounded like people were trying empowering the Republican establishment with one who subvert the will, will of the voters.
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, I watched what Ben said and agreed with him 100 percent. I even wrote him a note. I thought it was excellent. And frankly, he may be right. I haven't seen it yet. I have been hearing about it. I have been hearing about these closed door meetings and I don't like that. That wasn't the deal I made. I signed a pledge by the pledge was a double deal. There was supposed to be honorable. So we are going to find out if it's that way, they are going to have problems. But I hope it's not going to be that way. I hope it's not going to be that way.
(END VIDEO CLIP) SCIUTTO: Well, certainly a lot to talk about with our panel.
Joining me now, CNN political commentator and Trump supporter Jeffrey Lord, political commentator and Jeb Bush supporter Ana Navarro and senior political analyst former presidential advisor David Gergen.
Great to have you all on.
David, I want to start with you. You certainly have a little experience covering your share of elections taking part of them. In your view, knowing what you know now, is it possible even likely in your opinion that this is -- could end up with a brokered convention in light of the divisions we're seeing in the party now?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: It appears to be a growing possibility, Jim. And that is because there is this large field of candidates that several of whom are well funded and can go toward the end. And because of the rules that have been constructed by the Republican National Committee for this election cycle, it may well enhance the prospects of a brokered convention.
But here is what is really driving the story right now. There was a meeting that was held by the RNC chairman, Mr. Priebus, with a lot of Republican elites. That was a dinner. And the "Washington Post" said reporter out of there that they were talking about if it is a brokered convention, how do we deny Trump the nomination? How do we derail the Trump thing? And that's what set off Ben Carson and why Donald Trump is weighing in now. And this, in fact, was driving a lot of the -- I think a lot of the concern about early concern about something that's quite though theoretical but could become very real.
SCIUTTO: And you mentioned those rules. Well, one of them is I believe that one of the candidates has to have a majority of voters in at least eight primary states. You can see how big the field is. It is impossible you do get the convention without that happening.
Ana, I want to ask you. If the Republicans do go ahead with this, some sort of back room deal, smoking room deal, do they do so at their own peril in this cycle because the reality is, as of right this second, the majority of Republicans say they do not support. They do not want a main stream candidate. Is that a danger? Is that a risk for the Republican Party?
ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You know, Jim, I just don't think this is happening. Look, I know Reince Priebus. First of all, let me tell you. He doesn't smoke. And I don't think even the smoky room theories. I wish I thought that the Republican establishment and the Republican structures had the power to be able to push somebody like Donald Trump who I think would be a car wreck as a nominee out. But I think we all realize that that power does not exist. Those structures do not exist. And that there is a risk of antagonizing his followers who are a significant part of the Republican base. And whomever is the nominee is going to have a very hard job of uniting the different factions of the Republican Party, be it Donald Trump, be it Ted Cruz, be it Marco Rubio, be it Jeb Bush, whomever it is, is going to a have huge challenge on their hands. I don't think this is going to happen. You know, I'm from Florida. And when I hear the scenarios, I almost
feel like it's the political equivalent of a tropical storm forming far often in the Atlantic and we start seeing models going every which way.
Bottom line, guys, we are going to have to wait until elections, until the primaries, until we see votes come in, and we can start the bed wetting and hand ringing sometime in April, maybe May. It's a little early right now.
SCIUTTO: Jeff, I'll give you a chance to respond of the Trump's car wreck as a candidate but on the point of this --
NAVARRO: Maybe train wreck.
SCIUTTO: This back room deal. Does something like this play right into Trump's hand? We know who the kinds of voters who are supporting him, an enormous amount of appeal, of an ultimate outsider, does this narrative of hey, we're hurdling towards this smoky room and the establishment is going to keep him out, does that kind of add fueling to the fire to his support?
[20:25:05] JEFFREY LORD, FORMER REAGAN WHITE HOUSE POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes. I will tell you, Jim. Aside from saying that obviously, Donald -- I don't believe Donald Trump is a train wreck as nominee. You know what this reminds me of and I spent time looking at this, the 1912 Republican convention battle between incumbent Republican president William Howard Taft and former president, his predecessor and his mentor, if you will, Theodore Roosevelt, they got into this enormous battle for the nomination in 1912. The Roosevelt people basically were the rank and file of the party. Taft was the sort of old guard machinery. There was cries of Taft and manipulation of delegates. And Teddy Roosevelt in some ways was a lot like Donald Trump. If you crossed him, there was he will to pay and he lost, he immediately lost the convention hall and they rented another convention hall and he said we stand at Armageddon and we battle for the Lord. And he created this Bull Moose Party and they were off and running. I mean, I think if Donald Trump felt as Theodore Roosevelt did that he was deprived of the nomination and it was stolen from, I think there would be a problem.
SCIUTTO: I mean, if nothing else, you know, this is teaching -- it's a great civics lesson because I found myself reading up today on the 48th, 52, the 76 conventions. You know, last time you had a situation like this.
But David, I want to give you a chance to speak on that, I mean, specifically, the third party point because does it then create a greater likelihood of that as a plan B in effect for the Trump campaign?
GERGEN: Well, listen, absolutely go back to Teddy Roosevelt and the Bull Moose Party. That's the election to the Republican Party split and elected Woodrow Wilson with 43 percent of the vote. Put him in office. But where I think the wrong this country in all of this, Jim, and that
is, for most of the political history, we didn't have primaries and caucuses. The big wigs did select the nominee and there were back rooms which they did that.
Since 1960, the nominee of the party has always been determined by the primary and caucus. And since 1960, there has never been a brokered convention. There has been an openly contested convention in 1976 when Reagan almost, you know, and Reagan and Ford came in. And neither one of them had a vote. Ford got the vote. Mississippi vote for him. I was working for Ford at the convention. And, you know, and Ford went on to win the nomination. But this would be the first time in the history of the primaries and caucuses if it were to occur that nobody would come in with the majority.
So here is the problem. Since all the people have spoken across the country, let's say Trump comes in with 40 percent of delegates but not 50. Do you -- do you at that point have a brokered convention which the person is at third most number of votes gets the nomination? Think how the Trump people are going to feel if someone he beat on a regular basis came in with fewer delegates actually gets the nomination. They going to feel like it has stolen. That's why Ben Carson, that's the absolute -- that's the scenario Ben Carson is responding to and say I will quit the party if there is a theft like that. This will be a very tough, very controversial and very televised if it does occur.
SCIUTTO: Well, listen. It is months away. A lot can happen between now and then no questions.
David Gergen, Ana Navarro and Jeffrey Lord, thanks for coming on. It is great to have you.
And still ahead, breaking news in the San Bernardino shooting investigation. We are learning more about what the FBI is looking for at the bottom of this California Lake and how it might help them figure out a motive.
SCIUTTO: Breaking news tonight in the investigation of last week's mass shooting in San Bernardino, California. We're learning more about Enrique Marquez, a friend of one of the killers and the person who bought those two assault rifles used in the deadly attack. Meanwhile, divers were back in the water searching the lake for possible evidence. CNN's justice correspondent Pamela Brown joining me now, with more. Pamela, more and more focus on Enrique Marquez, the male suspect's friend. What are exactly our authorities learning from it, because he is cooperating with him now, isn't he?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: He is cooperating. He continues to talk to investigators. He's not been charged, but he's told investigators that he and Farook built pipe bombs in the past. He said that he had nothing to do with the devices that were found at the home of Farook and his wife or the ones that apparently failed to go off at the side of that shooting at the office function at the Inland Regional Center. Officials are even speaking - but, Marquez, he spent multiple days providing voluntary interviews to the FBI portrayed himself and Farook back the last couple of years saying that look, this was a hobby for us. We were hubbies, we were experimenting with building these devices, but he did boast, at one point during the interview, I'm told from sources that he made the bombs, if he had made the bombs, they would have gone off. Now, Marquez again hasn't been charged with any crimes, but right now, investigators want to know what the additional bombs in the killer's home were intended for. Jim?
SCIUTTO: Listen, hard to believe it's a hobby when they had inspired in a previous terror attack. The search in the nearby lake, you're learning new information now, but what authorities are trying to find there, exactly?
BROWN: That's right. So, we've learned FBI investigators believe the killers visited that nearby park where the lake is before the shooting attack, so right now as we see in this video, FBI divers are painstakingly looking for items the killers may have tried to throw away in that lake. Among those items the divers are searching for is a computer hard drive that investigators believe the shooters removed from the home in an attempt to hide their tracks. We know that FBI has gotten information from Internet providers about e-mails and that kind of thing, but there could be other crucial clues in that hard drive and they want to get to that, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Who were they talking to, particularly overseas? Pamela Brown.
SCIUTTO: Thanks so much, as always.
Lots to discuss on this case. Joining me is Shawn Henry, he is a former FBI executive assistant director and Bob Baer, CNN's intelligence and security analyst. He's also a former CIA officer. So Bob, Farook's friend Enrique Marquez, I'm fascinated by the more we learn about him. Now he's talking to the FBI openly, he's apparently turned down a lawyer.
Do you believe he's going to be a key in finding out how much of a wider this network could have been for this attack?
ROBERT BAER, FORMER CIA OFFICER: You know, Jim, right now I'd say he was very secondary. He was an un-waiting accomplice to the attack and I agree with you totally on the pipe bombs. When I was in Central Intelligence Agency, I made pipe bombs and trust me, it wasn't a hobby. You just wanted to stay away from them. He's a little bit delusional. He may know something about the 12,000 attacks and so I think we really have to go back and look at the wider network. You know, the hard drive is going to have context on there, what worries me most is that those contacts were in the United States, even southern California because there is really no other reason why they would dump this thing in the lake or smash it or whatever they have done with it. And you also have the two cell phones they were trying to hide something, maybe inscription systems, maybe call list. It's hard to tell at this point, but the FBI is sparing nothing to run this down.
SCIUTTO: Yeah, I mean, if they went through that much effort, you have to think there is some value in there, Shawn. So, it would have been more -- it's more than a week since the shooting, so more than a week that that hard drive would be at the bottom of the lake. Is that data salvageable? Could water damage prevent investigators from finding anything on it?
SHAWN HENRY, FORMER FBI EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Yeah, Jim, it actually is salvageable. The hard drive is made up of platters made of either glass or aluminum. And they have a magnetic coding on them, so the water itself doesn't do anything to the magnetic coding, which is how you retrieve the data. What would cause problems is if the platters themselves were corroded. So, it's been down there just for a week. Maybe a little longer. But if it hasn't been corroded, the platters haven't been corroded, there is no sentiment on them, the FBI, the team that they are using under water search and evidence response team, they are very specialized in finding this information. They will take that to the FBI lab where they have got special capabilities and they will be able to retrieve data, typically off of the drives, again, if those platters are not corroded. The water in it of itself is not going to be a problem, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Bob, you've looked at cases like this for years. There are kind of two different interpretations of these attackers here. That either they were great, they had tremendous preparations, contacts overseas, et cetera, or they were kind of operating on their own and made some mistakes, you know, the sort of strange trip home after the attack where they ended up getting, you know, encountering police, eventually shot and killed. As you look at the details now, do you see, do you see, you know, extremely deft terrorists or do you see ones who were kind of new at the game? Does it give you more or less worry?
BAER: I think they -- Jim, they were half way there, they clearly hadn't fought in Syria or someplace like that where they really would have been combat ready. But the girl holding off the police, firing off the window of the car, getting out of the area so quickly. When you're in a gunfight like that, you tend to make huge mistakes, you drop your magazine, you can't pull the trigger. And I've asked a lot of people. They just said no, she had some sort of training other than a range. I think she was probably recruited overseas, yeah, and that's -- it's a wider plot here. I've got no doubt about it.
SCIUTTO: That's a concerning. Shawn, I mean as you look at that, do you see similar signs? What pieces of the puzzle are missing at this point to give that indication?
HENRY: Well, pieces of the puzzle missing, Bob's already talked about kind of this wider conspiracy, are there others that may be involved? You know, when you look at the amount of weaponry that they had, the ammunition, 1800 rounds, multiple pipe bombs, building more, you know, you've got to continue to ask yourself was there something else that was planned or were there others that were involved? I think that this guy Marquez, I know Bob has some thoughts on him, but I think that he may have some additional information. Somebody led the FBI to that lake. Perhaps it was a passerby, somebody walking their dog saw them throw something in the lake, but perhaps Marquez knew about it himself as well. But somebody led them there. There are going to be others involved potentially, Jim, and this needs to be fully investigated to determine if that is, in fact, the case.
SCIUTTO: You know, we've got to hope they find what they are looking for.
Shawn Henry, Bob Baer, thanks for coming on.
Coming up next, ISIS looting ancient treasures and putting them up for sale on the Internet to the highest bidder. All of it to fund terror. We are keeping them honest. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) * SCIUTTO: A major loss for ISIS, their top finance minister killed in an airstrike in Iraq. This comes from the U.S.-led coalition. Money, of course key to ISIS, remains the best funded terrorist group in history. A top U.S. Treasury official revealed this week that ISIS militants have made more than half a billion dollars selling oil in the Middle East, but coalition forces are now targeting ISIS's oil fields more. So ISIS is looking to make money in other ways including turning to an age-old source of cash in the region. The stealing and smuggling of ancient antiquities. Drew Griffin is keeping them honest.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The evidence is just already popping up unsolicited on computer screens and cell phones across the world. Pictures like these. Offering ancient antiquities in a fire sale from a land on fire. Roman coins, golden earrings, museum pieces, ripped off the walls in Mosul. The seller, ISIS, the buyer, the highest bidder.
MICHAEL DANTI, AMERICAN SCHOOLS OF ORIENTAL RESEARCH: They loot everything that's not nailed down.
GRIFFIN: Michael Danti is academic director of the American School of Oriental Research. He consults for the State Department on what he sees as ISIS' systematic looting of the Middle East ancient past.
DANTI: They actively promote looting among their fighters as a way to generate income for the organization and they don't make this a secret. It's done brazenly, very overtly.
GRIFFIN: In February, ISIS destroyed statutes at the Mosul museum. In October, it was the 1800-year-old arts in Palmyra blown up. Images that caused worldwide condemnation, but there is something ISIS isn't showing you and that's what it's keeping and selling. This Hercules is a museum piece. This piece of pottery, from a repository in Raqqah still baring its registration number.
DANTI: They are looting antiquities from archeological sites, but they are also robbing cultural repositories, universities, libraries, archives, private collections and they are, of course, involved in the deliberate destruction of Heritage places for ideological reasons. On a weekly basis, we spend most of our time tracking that with Islamic State.
GRIFFIN: It is the smaller items that pose the biggest problems. Danti shows us Roman gold coins and ancient glass, even figurines, most likely robbed from graves or libraries, or private collections, low-end items that can fetch thousands to tens of thousands of dollars and flow across old smuggling routes without much trouble.
DANTI: Yeah, you can easily put this inside of a lab top bag.
GRIFFIN: This collection being sold in a batch could literally be walking out of Syria right now if it hasn't already.
DANTI: With antiquities, a single trafficker can walk across the border, slip through a hole in the Turkish border fence, empty their pockets and make 40 or $50,000 on the antiquities that they've carried across.
GRIFFIN: Last May, U.S. Special Forces raided a Syrian outpost and killed an ISIS leader named Abu Sayyaf. It turns out he was an ISIS money man in charge of a massive smuggling operation. Evidence found helped coalition forces target refineries, oil pipelines and finally start attacking those tanker trucks used to haul oil out. But the raid also found clues that pointed to a business-like system of looting antiquities, actual permits giving grave robbers, archeological scavengers and thieves. ISIS issued permits to dig.
BONNIE MAGNESS GARDINER, FBI ART THEFT PROGRAM: We can see from the satellite photographs, for example, that it is industrial scale looting and that there are also credible reports, of course, through the either side of documents that this does feed into terrorist financing.
GRIFFIN: Bonnie Magness Gardiner is with the FBI' art theft division, along with experts across the world the FBI is trying to document the damage, the looting and smuggling, identifying items that can be tracked down and after the war returned to their home countries, but right now it appears the antiquities are flowing out of the war zone in increasing numbers.
MAGNESS: We have credible information that offers have been made to U.S. people and institutions.
GRIFFIN (on camera): Can you give me any kind of details about how those offers were made? Were they cell phone offers, were they social media pitches?
MAGNESS: No, I really can't go into details, but they are credible reports.
GRIFFIN (voice over): Michael Levitt studies ISIS financing for the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. The fact that stolen antiquities are becoming a bigger source of funding shows success in containing other sources of ISIS cash, but the terror group he says is resilient.
(on camera): As oil revenues drop or get hampered, the hunt for antiquities and smuggling and permit issuing increases.
MICHAEL LEVITT, WASHINGTONON INSTITUTE FOR NEAR EAST POLICY: Think of it as squeezing a balloon, not hard enough to pop it, but hard enough to squeeze it. You squeeze it here, it's going to expand someplace else. We have seen in the past and we can expect to see now. They will expand into other directions.
GRIFFIN (voice over): And what is not being contained or squeezed or even slowed is the ideology of ISIS that continues to spread. Levitt believes the money will continue to flow to ISIS even if that means digging holes in the ground to find it.
SCIUTTO: So Drew, you report there that Americans among others, I assume, are being offered these antiquities as we speak. Is it against the law to buy them?
GRIFFIN: You know, it's tricky. There is a legal antiquities market. What is against the law, Jim, is to buy, knowingly buy stolen property or to knowingly buy these antiquities that are financing terror. It's the knowledge of that, the best the FBI and other countries can do is to warn people if you don't know exactly where this is coming from and have proof that it's coming from a legal area, you should probably stay away but, you know, we're dealing with a very, very mirky market here.
SCIUTTO: The U.S. has a long history, particularly since 9/11, of tracking and stopping terror financing. I mean, you say the FBI is putting out these warnings now. What else can be done or is being done to stop this very lucrative trade?
GRIFFIN: It's very difficult. The experts I talked to say it's difficult for two reasons. One, they don't have a handle on it, two, a lot of this can be bartered. They don't even have to change money. So they can just, you know, walk it across the border and basically, you know, trade it for whatever they need.
The best they can do, try to identify this stuff, especially the museum pieces, document where it came from, where it possibly went to and when this whole mess is over, try to track it down and repatriate to what we hope will be a stable government both in Iraq and in Syria, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Yeah, when the whole mess is over. Drew Griffin, thanks very much.
Coming up next, a deadly medical helicopter crash in California, details right after this.
SCIUTTO: There is a lot more news happening tonight and Gary Tuchman has a "360" bulletin.
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim, four people are dead after a medical helicopter crashed in central California. The chopper lost contact with air traffic controllers minutes after takeoff.
The dead include the patient, the pilot, a nurse and a paramedic.
It was an ugly day on Wall Street, oil plunging to a seven-year low dipping below 36 bucks a barrel. The slide sent stocks falling as well, the Dow ending the day down. 310 points representing a 2 percent loss for the index.
And a custom painted Porsche that once belonged to the late rocker Janice Joplin sold at auction for a whopping $1.76 million. The psychedelic Porsche 356 is covered bumper to bumper with mirrors. The irony here, Jim, is that Janice Joplin is well-known for her song "Mercedes Benz".
SCIUTTO: Thanks, Gary, very much. This Sunday night, don't miss the new CNN quiz show, famous American edition, three teams of CNN hosts and anchors will put their knowledge to the test with money for charity on the line. Anderson Cooper will be asking the question and here is a look at the teams and how they plan to win.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one wants John Berman to win again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think our best chance with Berman is some sort of Tonya Harding -Jeff Galui (ph) situation.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: I think Rob is all about distractions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She's got a wide width of knowledge.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If we lose, it sabotages you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Absolutely. The only plausible explanation.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Tune in Sunday at 7:00 p.m. Eastern for the CNN quiz show, "Famous Americans" edition and watch out which team strategy wins out this time. We'll be right back.