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Who Won the Debate?; Hung Jury in the First Trial of Officer Involved in Freddie Gray's Death. Aired 10-11p ET
Aired December 16, 2015 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DON LEMON, CNN TONIGHT SHOW HOST: Eighteen million people watched the republicans battle it out in our GOP debate last night. Who won? Who lost and who might be about to drop out?
This is CNN Tonight. I'm Don Lemon.
You know, the Iowa Caucuses are just weeks away and today on the campaign trail the tough talk heating up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Look what I did to Bush. I haven't even started on Hillary. I haven't even started.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: And some of the candidates you saw on stage last night are hanging on by a thread. Tonight we're going to break down all of the big moments for you and we're going to tell you where the republican rivals go from here.
Plus, you're looking live now at the streets of Baltimore. An uneasy calm there tonight, that's after protestors took to the streets in the wake of a hung jury for a police officer charged in Freddie Gray's death.
We got a lot to get too tonight, we'll get to that in this broadcast but I want to begin with two people who asked some very tough questions at last night's debate, that's Hugh Hewitt and Dana Bash. Hugh and Dana, we have to stop meeting this way, at least we're inside though, where it is warm.
DANA BASH, CNN'S CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: True.
LEMON: So, Hugh, who do you think won this debate in your opinion and has it changed since last night?
HUGH HEWITT, THE HUGH HEWITT SHOW HOST: No. I said this morning on New Day with Chris Cuomo, I thought Chris Christie won the debate last night and the silver went to Jeb Bush and that there was a tie for the bronze between Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz.
I just was in the green room with Carly Fiorina. She had a very good night. She was the only one to bring up the person I can't talk about on your show, Don. So, I just bring that -- I brought you shirt tonight. She went after Hillary more than anybody else. But I still think probably Chris Christie did himself the most good last night.
LEMON: All right. Well, let's continue on with that. Because you had strong reaction, by the way, you were supposed to give me that t-shirt and you didn't.
HEWITT: I forgot it. I brought it for you, Don.
BASH: I want to know why Hugh Hewitt has a Hillary Clinton t-shirt. I guess we can talk about that in the break.
LEMON: Dana, thank you very much. But Hugh, you had some strong reactions from the audience after one question last night. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEWITT: So, you are OK with the deaths of thousands of innocent children and civilians? It's like...
BEN CARSON, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You got it. You got it.
HEWITT: That is what war -- can you be as ruthless as Churchill was in prosecuting the war against the Nazis?
CARSON: Ruthless is not necessarily the word I would use, but tough, resolute, understanding what the problems are and understanding that the job of the President of the United States is to protect the people of this country and to do what is necessary in order to get it done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Hugh, what brought that on, what prompted that question?
HEWITT: Dr. Carson is much loved because of his national day of prayer breakfast speech because he is the evangelical, because he is gentle Ben, because he is a pediatric neurosurgeon.
And the question is where there are World War III and this was a Commander-in-Chief debate, does he have it in him to be ruthless. Clementine Churchill said of her husband Winston Churchill that he could do the job because he was lethal.
About Dr. Carson, I think he probably walked him the opportunity to assure the audience. Even if the audience didn't welcome the opportunity and we just have to put up with that on our business to say to them, yes, I can wage war. And so, we got to that question. I'm very proud of that question. I don't mind getting booed. That's part of the game.
LEMON: Yes. It's interesting because sometimes we talk about, Dana, who won the room. And it's often different when you're in the room.
BASH: Oh, yes.
LEMON: And then when you're watching on television. But listen, they want to reach those 18 million people. I'm not sure how much they care about what happened in the room. So, what -- who stood out to you?
BASH: You know, I definitely think just in the way he was different than any other debate, Jeb Bush. He was -- he clearly came in with a very specific game plan to go after Donald Trump, to do so in a way that he hasn't fore. I don't know. Maybe it was a political Hail Mary.
It appeared that he was trying to send signals to his maybe its current donors who are -- panic kind of left the stage a long time ago. It's much tougher than that. But even especially the many, many donors or the establishment who are out there who haven't gotten into the game yet. So, you know, trying to appeal to them.
But I also thought that the Marco Rubio-Ted Cruz dynamic. Even Rand Paul especially somebody like me who has studied them for the past few years since they've been in the Senate, I found that most fascinating.
LEMON: Well, you mentioned Rubio-Cruz, and the exchanges were pretty intense between them. One of them you asked Senator Rubio about immigration. Let's listen to it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BASH: You haven't answered the question. You just described a very long path but does that path end at citizenship?
[22:04:57] MARCO RUBIO, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Oh, but I have answered that question repeatedly. I am personally open after all of that has happened and after 10 years and that probationary status where all they have is a work permit, I personally. I'm open to allowing people to apply for a green card.
TED CRUZ, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, there was a time for choosing as Reagan put it, where there was a battle over amnesty. And some chose like Senator Rubio to stand with President Obama and Chuck Schumer and support a massive amnesty plan. Others chose to stand with Jeff Sessions and Steve King and the American and secure the border.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The path to citizenship, I mean, that is a political hot topic in the Republican Party. I wonder who you think came out on top of that exchange. And more importantly, whatever happened to a yes/no answer, right? I kept waiting for yes, I still do support it.
BASH: I tried.
BASH: I tried especially not on this.
LEMON: Yes. BASH: I knew I wasn't going to get a yes or no answer but we did get sort of his flavor of yes, so to speak. This is as you said a hot topic, has been for almost a decade now within the republican electorate ever since George W. Bush tried very hard to do just that, to get a path to citizenship for the 11 million or so undocumented immigrants in this country.
Marco Rubio tried. He got way out over his skis on this issue politically a couple of years ago. He did sign on, actually not sign on, he co-authored a bill with democrats. At the time he was doing it because Mitt Romney had just lost big time among Hispanics and he felt that it was his responsibility to try to fix the problem with the republicans where he is going to get Hispanics back into the fold.
But fast forward to where we are now. He -- it's a political liability. He knew it was a possibility. It is a very big liability. And the reason why that was a moment is because this was the fifth republican debate.
Although Rubio talks about it on the campaign trail only because he is asked about it, this is the first time he has been asked directly about it. And so, this was 18 million people able to hear, oh, he supports that?
BASH: And then of course, Cruz coming in for the kill, calling it amnesty, which is the worst thing you can hear if you're a republican voter.
LEMON: Back now to Mr. Hewitt. So, Hugh, I want to play, this is an interesting question and answer exchange between you and Donald Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEWITT: Dr. Carson just referenced the single most job of the president, the command, the control and the care of our nuclear forces. And he mentioned the triad, the fleet that it is older than I am, the missiles are old, the submarines are aging out. It's an Executive Order; it's a Commander-in-Chief decision, what's your priority among our nuclear triad.
TRUMP: Well, first of all, I think we need somebody absolutely that we can trust who is totally responsible, who really knows what he or she is doing. That is so powerful and so important.
And one of the things that I'm frankly most proud of is that in 2003, 2004, I was totally against going into Iraq because you're going to destabilized the Middle East. I called it, I called it very strongly and it was very important.
But we have to be extremely vigilant and extremely careful when it comes to nuclear. Nuclear changes the whole ball game. Frankly, I would have said get out of Syria. Get out. If we didn't have the power of weaponry today, the power is so massive that we can't just leave areas that 50 years ago or 75 years ago we wouldn't care. It was hand to hand combat. The biggest problem this world has today
is not President Obama with global warming which is inconceivable. This is what he's saying. The biggest problem we have today is nuclear, nuclear proliferation and having some maniac, having some madman go out and get a nuclear weapon.
That's -- in my opinion, that is the single biggest problem that our country faces.
HEWITT: As the three legs of the triad, though, do you have a priority? Because I want to go to Senator Rubio after that last...
TRUMP: Well, I think -- I think from nuclear is just the power, the devastation is very important to me.
HEWITT: Senator Rubio, do you have a response?
RUBIO: I do. Well, first, let's explain to people what the triad, what the triad is, remember a lot of people haven't heard that terminology before. The triad is our ability of the United States to conduct nuclear attacks using airplanes, using missile launched from silos or from the ground and also from our nuclear subs ability to attack. And it's important, all three of them are critical.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So that -- the answer was advantage Donald Trump, Hugh, But was Marco Rubio, I mean, was he throwing some shade to Donald Trump maybe suddenly pointing that it was his opponent didn't appear to know what the nuclear triad is?
HEWITT: I think you can say that. I also think that as a national security issue grows more and more importance specificity about not only our armaments and our diplomats (ph) those armaments, but things like Carly Fiorina, who I was just talking about, her command of encryption or command of the national security data, the technology evolutions that were falling behind.
Command of specifics in a war that is global and is going to go on for 20 and 30 years and which requires an all-out national effort to win and about which Americans are deeply afraid. Specific command of facts will matter. Now Donald Trump is way ahead. And so, maybe I'm wrong. I've been wrong a lot about this.
[22:10:00] Maybe you can stay general. But as you go ahead into our race deeper and deeper and people get more and more concerned with an actual vote specifics matter. And I will look for all the candidates step it.
BASH: Don, I want just quickly take you behind the scenes, you know, a lot of people want to know how this happens. From day one, which was a long time ago, weeks ago, when we all started talking about this debate.
Hugh Hewitt was determined to ask about the nuclear triad. And there was a lot of push back.
LEMON: I can imagine, I've been in that room.
BASH: And you have, and you know what, look he prevailed. And what are we talking about the next night?
LEMON: The triad. Yes.
BASH: Congratulations, Hugh Hewitt.
HEWITT: Thank you. Thank you, Dana.
LEMON: All right.
HEWITT: It's because it's important. It's because it's important.
BASH: It is.
LEMON: OK. We're going to -- congratulating ourselves. But you guys did a great job. You seriously you should be very proud. It was very informative. Oh, my gosh.
HEWITT: It's for you, Don. It belonged to you. I can bring her up. She lost last night. Because Carly Fiorina really took it to her. She lost last night.
LEMON: Bye, Hugh Hewitt. Until next time.
HEWITT: Good night, Don.
LEMON: Thank you, Dana. See you later.
BASH: Thank you, Don.
LEMON: When we come right back, tough talk from Donald Trump on the campaign trail and team Trump on the biggest challenge, the candidate has faced so far.
Plus, Jeb Bush on the offensive. But is it too little, too late?
LEMON: Donald Trump was front and center on our GOP debate stage last night and he is not holding back on the campaign trail today.
So, joining me now to discuss is a Trump campaign co-chairman in New Hampshire, and that is Stephen Stepanek. Good to have you, sir. How are you doing?
STEPHEN STEPANEK, DONALD TRUMP'S NEW HAMPSHIRE CO-CHAIRMAN: I'm doing well, Tom -- Don. How are you?
LEMON: I'm great. OK. So, listen, Donald Trump was in Arizona today and he took a swipe at Jeb Bush. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) TRUMP: Last night, so I had Jeb come at me, you know, low energy. No,
I am standing here and all of a sudden I hear this, you know, Donald Trump is -- you know, he is just like, he said it just the way his pollster told him to say it. And then I hit back very, very hard.
[22:15:04] But look, we need strong people. We need sharp people. We are being killed. We are being beaten by everybody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Stephen, I'm wondering if Mr. Trump looked rattled to you last night in these exchanges with Jeb Bush. Do you think that Bush got under his skin?
STEPANEK: No, not at all. (AUDIO GAP) he was -- he (AUDIO GAP) very well. I think if anything, watching Jeb Bush, Governor Bush, it was -- I sort of got the impression that he really doesn't want to be running for president. He sort of like the little boy at the table who is eating his carrots and he hates carrots.
And he's just that look on his face all the time. And I just don't think he's enjoying it. I think a lot of the other candidates and I know Donald Trump is really enjoying the race. And I just don't think Governor Bush is happy and you can see clearly...
LEMON: Well, I have to say that a lot of people thought that Jeb Bush did himself a service last night. An unscientific survey we took from social media said he came in third, the first time that he's shown up in the top five and they thought that his back and forth with Donald Trump really served him (AUDIO GAP).
STEPANEK: I really think it's -- he really isn't resonating at this point in time. He's way down in the polls and I think going forward, he just is not what the people are looking for.
And I think the biggest thing is looking at what is going on, the dynamic of what is going on in this race, which is unique as far as presidential races over the last several cycles.
And I think one of the things that people don't understand is what is really going on in politics today. And that is when you look at the last election, 47 percent of the people who are registered to vote didn't show up, didn't vote. Because people are sick and tired of politics. They don't see a difference between republican and democratic politicians. They've been turned off.
LEMON: So, you -- what you're saying is that Donald -- do you think that's Donald Trump's appeal. And part of it and you have to, you know, in these polls is probably name recognition. Do you think what he is saying will resonate? Because a lot of people have been, you know, hitting back at him saying that he is not specific enough in his policies. Is that a concern for you? STEPANEK: No. Because I think that he is communicating with American
voters. And he's communicating with people who have been turned off within by the political process and they're not looking at -- you know, when a lot of people talked about when Senator Rubio and Senator Cruz were talking and they got into the weeds.
People are looking for somebody who is going to come out and fight for them. And that's what Donald Trump is doing.
STEPANEK: He is -- he is their champion. They are sick and tired of politics as usual. And I think people don't recognize it. I've been on the ground at all of the events up here in New Hampshire and Massachusetts. And the people that are coming out are people who have been disillusioned by politicians...
STEPANEK: ... and the political process and the political machine going forward.
STEPANEK: And he is resonating with those people and he is going to continue to resonate with those people. And I think people are going to be shocked when they actually see election results because those people are not on anybody's radar screens and not in anybody's database when they do know the polling. The polling is about...
LEMON: We will see when it comes to that. Stephen Stepanek, thank you very much, the chairman of the New Hampshire -- I'm sorry, the New Hampshire Republican Party chairman there -- excuse me, co-chairman for Donald Trump's campaign there. Sorry about that.
STEPANEK: Co-chairman for Donald Trump. Yes.
LEMON: Now we're going to get to the chairman of the New Hampshire Republican Party and that is Jennifer Horn and she joins us now. Hey, Jennifer, Donald Trump consistently polls well when it comes to strength in leadership. As you heard what his co-chair has been saying there. His rhetoric about Muslim, is it helping him or is it hurting him in New Hampshire?
JENNIFER HORN, NEW HAMPSHIRE REPUBLICAN PARTY CHAIRMAN: Well, Don, first, let me just say thank you for having me tonight, and I want to say thank you to CNN while I have the opportunity also. You, guys, did a terrific job last night, Wolf, Dana, Hugh, it was a great debate and we really appreciate what CNN brought to the table last night.
There's no question that voters out there are angry. They are disenfranchised. They have every reason to be. We have spent seven years with the failed leadership of Barack Obama with leading from behind, leading on politics rather than on principle. And I think voters across the country are really angry and really disappointed in that.
[22:20:03] And there's no question that that is, you know, that that is coloring the way that they're looking at this race. You know, as far as, you know, who is ahead and who is behind in the polls right now I think I've said this to you before and I said it to a lot of folks, the polls today in my experience simply are not reflective of what's going to happen on Election Day. There is a lot of, you know, there is a lot of time between now and February 9th.
I think what we saw last night was an opportunity for all of our republican candidates to really express their strength.
LEMON: I understand that Ms. Horn, but more specifically, more specifically, Ms. Horn, if you will, with, you know, with all due respect.
LEMON: To my question, do you think that people are questioning his strength in leadership at this moment. There are those who questioned it last night upon -- on that stage. Is it helping or hurting him in New Hampshire where you are?
HORN: There is no question that here in New Hampshire voters are looking for strong leaders. They are looking for leaders who can unite not just the party but the country, who can lead us forward to a better tomorrow than what we've seen for the past seven years.
There's no question that that is an issue or a question that's being asked not just of Donald Trump but all of our candidates.
LEMON: So, Jeb Bush had some good one-liners and had testy exchanges with Donald Trump last night. I want you to listen and then we'll talk about it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald is great at the one-liners. But he is a chaos candidate and he'd be a chaos president. He would not be the Commander-in-Chief we need to keep our country safe.
I was mentioned so I can bring up something, I think, right? Look, the simple fact is if you think this is tough and you're not being treated very well...
TRUMP: This isn't tough. I wish he...
BUSH: Imagine what it's going to be like dealing with Putin or dealing with President Xi...
TRUMP: I wish he was always as easy as he gets. BUSH: ... or dealing with the Islamic terrorism that exists.
TRUMP: Oh, yes.
BUSH: This is a tough business to run for president.
TRUMP: Oh, I know, you're a tough guy, Jeb. I know.
BUSH: And it's -- and we need to have a leader that is real tough.
TRUMP: Real tough.
BUSH: You're never going to be President of the United States by insulting your way to the presidency.
TRUMP: Oh, let's see. I'm at 42 and you're at 3, so, so far I'm doing better.
BUSH: Doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, you know this as the, you know, there in New Hampshire. They have said that Bush's campaign is been on life support for a lot of time and money into New Hampshire. Will his performance last night make a difference or is it too little too late now?
HORN: Well, I would say I think that Governor Bush had the best debate of this cycle so far last night. I think he really held his own. I think he was very strong. I think that back and forth that you just highlighted between the two candidates is very typical in a primary between any of the candidates.
And what I would say about Governor Bush's operation that, you know, all of these candidates have strengths and weaknesses. They're better in one format, not as strong maybe in another on the ground here, when he is doing Town Halls, when he is doing house parties, Governor Bush has been very strong. I am not one of those folks that says it's time to count him out. Or to be honest with you just about anybody on that stage.
LEMON: Yes. There are still but 14 candidates. Do you think that this is going to help eventually, help the field narrow to a nominee after Iowa or after New Hampshire as this begins to narrow?
HORN: You know, absolutely. Narrowing the field, that job belongs in the hands of the voters. And what we've always said here in New Hampshire we're not about picking the nominee, we're about giving everybody the opportunity, giving everyone the chance who wants to go after this job the chance to come here and make their argument and speak directly to voters and advance their vision and advance their message.
And that's what we do here in New Hampshire. You know, Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, the voters will narrow this field in the way that they see fit. And that's the way that it should be. LEMON: All right. Jennifer Horn, thank you so much. I appreciate you
joining us here on CNN.
When we come right back, lots of fireworks on the debate stage last night, but who came up on top? Maybe not the candidate you think.
[22:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: The gloves came off in Las Vegas last night but who really came out on top?
Joining me now is John Brabender, senior strategist for Rick Santorum. You, guys like that I see you smiling. Kayleigh McEnany, editor of Political Prospect; Bob Beckel, author of "I Should Be Dead, My Life Surviving Politics, TV, and Addiction," and republican strategist, Kevin Madden who has worked for Mitt Romney's campaign. Kevin, I think you liked that though, more than anybody else.
KEVIN MADDEN, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I can't hear out of my left ear now because of it, but, yes, I liked that.
LEMON: So, John, well, we'll go with John since John can hear me first. A lot of fireworks last night between Senator Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: There was a battle over amnesty and some chose like Senator Rubio to stand with Barack Obama and Chuck Schumer and support a massive amnesty plan.
RUBIO: As far as Ted's record, I'm always puzzled by his attack on this issue. Ted, you support legalizing people who are in this country illegally.
CRUZ: For Marco suggests our record is the same, it is like suggesting the fireman and the arsonist have the same record because they're both at the scene of the fire.
RUBIO: Does Ted Cruz rule out ever legalizing people they're in this country illegally now.
BASH: Senator Cruz.
CRUZ: I have never supported a legalization...
RUBIO: Do you rule it out?
CRUZ: I have never supported legalization and I do not intend to support legalization.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: All right. So, Rubio -- John, Rubio versus Cruz, testy exchanges, who came out on top?
JOHN BRABENDER, SENIOR STRATEGIST FOR RICK SANTORUM: Well, I think the first question you have to really ask is who came out on the bottom and that was Carson. And the reason that is so important is he had a sizable number of votes and they're going to start going somewhere. I think they're going to be mixed mostly between Trump and Cruz.
The other thing the dynamic that's happening is Bush is struggling. So...
LEMON: OK, wait. Hang on, hang on, hang on. Stop.
LEMON: No one wants to answer my questions tonight. I asked you about Rubio...
BRABENDER: I'm moving there.
LEMON: ... versus Cruz, can we just stick to them and that exchange that you just saw, who came out on top?
BRABENDER: It doesn't matter. Because what...
LEMON: It does matter. I asked the question, can you please just answer it.
BRABENDER: But here's what's happening. Cruz is starting to become sort of the Tea Party Evangelical candidate. That is scaring a lot of the other parts of the party who would have been with bush.
So, now they're starting to galvanize behind Rubio. So, in a sense, Cruz's success is also going to cause some Rubio success, and so therefore, it's not a matter of who is between the two of them winning right now, they're both winning when they get into these exchanges.
[22:30:02] KAYLEIGH MCENANY, POLITICAL PROSPECT EDITOR: No. I think Cruz is the one who clearly won on that exchange. I mean...
LEMON: Thank you, Kayleigh.
MCENANY: Yes, Cruz clearly...
LEMON: Please, how hard was that?
MCENANY: Rubio didn't have his facts. It's so crazy to me that Rubio could look at Cruz, the only elected official on the stage who has never supported amnesty. I say elected official because Donald Trump has not supported amnesty.
For him to look at Cruz and accuse him of supporting legalization I don't know where that comes from, it's disingenuous. He's just trying to appeal to rightly voters but it's not working because he has no facts behind him to support that.
LEMON: Well, the reason I ask this because I thought it was, you know, when we were talking about yes or no answers and Dana Bash and I talked about this. I think when Cruz turned around and said, listen, I never have been, I never will support -- been supportive of that. I think that appeals to the American people because someone is answering the question directly.
And people go around and around. I think Marco Rubio went around and around and round with that answer and Dana had to come back to him. That was the purpose of me asking that question.
But here is what my colleague Dylan Byers tweeted out during this debate last night. He said "Imagine tonight Rubio versus Cruz action happening on stage with just two podiums because that could be the reality in a few months. Do you think that that is a reality in just a few months, Kevin?
KEVIN MADDEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: It is quite possible. I mean, if you see think -- if you see Cruz possibly winning Iowa where he is very well organized and maybe Marco Rubio getting a win somewhere in the place like New Hampshire and Nevada and then they go into that March 1st through the 15th date when there are many delegates at stake across many different states. You essentially have a nationalized primary potentially between Marco Rubio and ted Cruz.
But the only scenario which that would happen is if Donald Trump doesn't win somewhere and Donald Trump would go quietly fade into the background. And I think that's probably the tougher scenario to imagine.
LEMON: So, Bob, I want you to take a look at this photo that was tweeted out tonight. It's Marco Rubio holding up the cover of the Des Moines Register with the headline, "Iowans, Trumps slips, Rubio shines." You said that last night was a fight for the one who will come in third in Iowa behind Trump and Cruz. Do you think that Rubio can actually pull that off?
BOB BECKEL, "I SHOULD BE DEAD" AUTHOR: I don't -- I don't know. You know, I was out in Iowa for three days going back, I've been there for six presidential races. And it was interesting, the Cruz people are energized and working in there. I couldn't find many Trump people and the Rubio people, although there was support for him there wasn't organized support.
And you know, if you do caucuses it's a much different situation. What Hillary Clinton learned when she ran against Barack Obama was that she didn't pay attention to caucuses. She won the primaries but she lost the caucuses and Barack Obama won.
So, I think in terms of organization you got to give Cruz a big advantage in Iowa and Trump, maybe he can get the people to vote who are for him. But they're not the most easily organized people.
LEMON: Is the fight for third that significant?
BECKEL: Oh, sure. Because there are only three people as far as I know, or probably like 10, there will be three people, maybe four, but more likely three coming out of Iowa. And then you go to New Hampshire, I mean, three coming out of there.
So, the fight to get in third place is very important now. And that's what I think Rubio was doing last night. I mean, I think he was taking on and I think the answer to your question is I agree. I think Cruz probably got the advantage there marginally.
But, you know, the amazing thing about Rubio he sounds like he knows what he is talking about and he is a very good debater. And he walks away and say like a smart.
BECKEL: Even though all of them made some outrageous statements that just do not stand up to the scrutiny of fact.
LEMON: All right. So, John, listen, there was Rubio versus Cruz and there was also Bush V Trump as well. And we saw some of that already. Here's a little bit more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEB BUSH, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Two months ago, Donald Trump said that ISIS was not our fight. Just two months ago. He said that Hillary Clinton would be a great negotiator with Iran. And he got -- he gets his foreign policy experience from the shows.
DONALD Trump, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Oh, come on.
BUSH: That is not a serious kind of candidate. We need someone that thinks this trough that can lead our country to safety and security.
WOLF BLITZER, THE SITUATION ROOM SHOW HOST: Mr. Trump?
Trump: Look, the problem is -- we need toughness. Honestly, I think Jeb is a very nice person. He's a very nice person but we need tough people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So John, there were, I mean, some low expectations for Jeb Bush. Will this -- do you think it's going to help him breathe some life back into his campaign?
BRABENDER: Well, I don't think it's enough. I mean, the problem is the way the electorate is right now. Jeb Bush, even if you look at that exchange seems like the more honorable, reasonable person. But if you look at the Trump supporters they feel disenfranchised from the whole political process of both parties.
So, when Donald Trump is sort of outrageous that actually makes him more look more endearing to them rather than looking none presidential. So, I would say Bush had probably one of his better debates. I just think it was too little, too late and I don't think he helped himself that much.
[22:34:59] LEMON: All right. Stay with me, everyone. When we come right back, Chris Christie had some good moments on the debate stage but will that be enough to kick start his campaign?
LEMON: Some surprising alliances on the debate stage last night. Back to talk about that is John Brabender, Kayleigh McEnany, Bob Beckel, and Kevin Madden.
So, Kayleigh, Donald Trump sent Eric told The Daily Mail in the spin room after the debate last night that Cruz and Trump have great camaraderie. Do you think that we could see a, or I think we will probably see a Cruz-Trump ticket if it works out that way.
MCENANY: No doubt about it. Look, you know, they're both very genuine in their beliefs, they genuine and wanting to protect this country and wanting to secure our borders and national defense. And I think that they really get along. They get along on the issues.
And there seems to me that there was some meeting of the minds between the maniac comment on Donald Trump's part and what happened on the debate stage. You know, some sort of regrouping of we're on the same side. Let's get the conservative movement together. Because this is not an election we want an establishment candidate like John McCain or Mitt Romney to win. Let's bring it together. I think that something like that happened between some of Donald Trump's appearance...
LEMON: Was it a meeting of the minding or do you think that the two men and said, hey, look, all right, buddy, do you think that that could have happened?
MCENANY: I think it could have. I mean, I have no reason to believe and no facts to support that but there was definitely a change. I think we can all agree there were some change between the dynamic from two days prior to then. What happened? Could have been a meeting, could have been a meeting of the minds. I'm not sure.
LEMON: What does everybody else think about that, does anyone else want to weigh in on that...
BECKEL: I'm all for it. I think it would be the greatest ticket you could possibly have. A Trump-Cruz ticket is something that I want to announce tonight on your show as a democrat endorse. [22:40:02] It's a terrific idea. And by the way. I think -- I said
this before, Hillary Clinton can't win this presidential race, the republicans can lose it. And man, you talk about a fast way to do that, you put that ticket out.
MCENANY: Wrong Bob Beckel.
BRABENDER: But that's not what the case.
LEMON: Go ahead, John.
BRABENDER: What the case is that the Cruz people fully believe that at some point Trump is going to implode and they want to make sure that they're there to pick up the people from the Trump train on to the Cruz train.
And so, they're going to play very nice with Trump because they truly believe that's going to happen. That's all this is and I think that it's otherwise I think is ridiculous.
MADDEN: And so far it's working. I mean, usually in the campaign the conventional wisdom is that you have to go out and force a choice between for voters between those two candidates. But I think so many of this Cruz -- the Cruz campaign believes that so many of these voters out there that they have in Iowa are very intense and very focused on voting for Cruz.
And that when the intensity begins to drop from Donald Trump when he starts to maybe lose a couple of his contest that those are going to swing towards him and they are going to be in his camp and ultimately going to help him consolidate that outsider -- that outsider lane of this primary.
LEMON: Let's just say that, you know, you said that Donald Trump, John, you said that they believe that Donald Trump is going to implode, right? Is that, you've said that...
BRABENDER: That was exactly what I said.
BRABENDER: I think they feel there is a large probability.
LEMON: OK. So, let's say that happens. It doesn't appear to be happening. Because even when everyone thinks he's out he keeps rising in the polls. But do you think that there may be some deal somehow where Donald Trump would be -- I don't know, can you see Donald Trump being the vice president on a Cruz-Trump ticket? Do you think Donald Trump would even go for that, or Ted Cruz go for anything like that?
BRABENDER: It doesn't make sense politically because I'm not sure it adds anything. I think if I'm Ted Cruz I'm trying to look at somebody that adds a different dimension to the ticket than rather be somebody who is so similar to him.
And there is already a lot of people that are scared of Trump, already a lot of people that are scared of Cruz. Putting together is not going to exactly bring stability, I don't believe.
LEMON: All right. On to Chris Christie now. He had solid moments last night, too. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I want to talk to the audience at home for a second, if your eyes are glazed over like mine this is what it is like on the floor of the United States Senate.
I mean, and this debate about how many angels on the head of a pin from people who have never had to make a consequential decision in executive position.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, he does have a lot. I've seen him do it at least two or three times in that debate. The thing is, Bob, and that here is a moment where Rubio, Cruz and Rand Paul were fighting about policy, and then you got Christie, right, interject to play up his executive experience. Do you think that moment worked for Christie?
BECKEL: Yes, I do. And I'll tell you what. It originally I said three or four candidates come out in New Hampshire. You know, New Hampshire has a tendency to upset the Iowa front runner. It doesn't go along with Iowa, and that's true.
If Cruz wins Iowa and Trump wins in New Hampshire, Cruz is not going to do well in New Hampshire, not a lot of Evangelical. The man used to be leader, he used to be powerful but it still got what, and it will sit with Christie right through Election Day. If Christie could come up in third place there, then you've got four people coming out of New Hampshire.
LEMON: So, Kevin let's talk about Dr. Ben Carson, all right?
LEMON: Early on in debate he complained that he wasn't getting a chance to speak. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN CARSON, (R) U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So, first of all let me just complain a little bit. It's the first time I have spoken and several people have had multiple questions. So, please try to pay attention to that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: OK. So, Wolf then gave him the opportunity to respond to a debate between Marco Rubio and Rand Paul over bulk data collection. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, THE SITUATION ROOM SHOW HOST: Dr. Carson, who was right in that debate we just heard between Senator Rubio and Senator Paul?
CARSON: I think you have to ask them about that. I don't want to get in between them. Let them fight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: So, Kevin, first he complains that he wasn't given a chance to speak and then he doesn't want to answer a question about national security. I mean, what -- do you expect him to fade further? What happened to him? He was like up there with Donald Trump just...
MADDEN: Yes. Look, we've seen Ben Carson's numbers and his position in many of this early state polls go into a bit of a tail spin as national security and foreign policy has come to the forefront.
Those are not issues that many voters would expect someone who is as accomplished as Donald Trump, I'm sorry, as Ben Carson is, to have a much experience on. And as a result, they've raised the bar and he hasn't really met it.
When you are in a debate stage where the national -- where the focus of the debate is national security and you start to complain or start to whine a little bit about not getting enough time from the moderators, that doesn't exactly send the message or exudes strength or control that many voters are looking for from their candidates.
So, I think he's in a tail spin right now that is going to be very hard to get out of. Last night's debate performance did not help.
[22:45:03] LEMON: Thank you, everyone. I appreciate it.
BECKEL: Yes. OK.
MCENANY: Thanks, Don.
LEMON: Thank you, John.
Coming up, a hung jury in the Freddie Gray case. Now Gray's parents are appealing for calm in Baltimore.
LEMON: In Baltimore, a hung jury in the first of six trials in the Freddie Gray case. A judge declared a mistrial today after the jurors said they could not reach a unanimous verdict on any of the charges against Baltimore police officer William Porter.
The family of Freddie Gray thanking jurors for their service and asking the public to remain calm.
CNN's Miguel Marquez is in Baltimore for us this evening. Good evening, Miguel. What is been the reaction both inside and outside the courtroom to this mistrial?
MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, when that judge said, when Judge William said that they were deadlocked on all four charges there was an audible gasp in the courtroom. It was fairly packed. By the time when the buzzer went off we knew the jury was coming, it was a half hour, 45 minutes before the jury actually came in -- came out.
So, we knew something was going on in there. And then the reaction outside was almost immediate with protestors -- a fairly small knot of protestors at first, just a couple of dozen outside the courtroom.
[22:50:00] And then they marched here to city hall and then they marched around in the streets blocking traffic for a short time down by the police station, by a police HQ, and then the police literally responding by the twelve's and dozens, themselves, in order to keep protestors off of the streets and from blocking the traffic.
Police clearly very well prepared with lots of police but not in riot gear. There were two arrested during this time. Well known activist Kwame Rose who I think you know has been on your show before, and a 16-year-old who was also arrested.
Protestors eventually ended up over at central booking where the 16- year-old was taken, hoping that they could get him out tonight, Don.
LEMON: All right. Miguel Marquez on the ground for us in Baltimore. Miguel, thank you very much.
Joining me now is Baltimore defense attorney, Andrew Alperstein and the -- and Neill Franklin, a Maryland state police major. It's good to have both of you here this evening, gentlemen.
You know, Andy, the judge sent the deadlock jury to back to work yesterday, clearly he wanted a verdict. So, what do you think happened?
NEILL FRANKLIN, RETIRED MARYLAND STATE POLICE MAJOR: Well, what I think happened is that you just have a jury from Baltimore here and they just couldn't come together on this. Some people were saying it might be because of the racial makeup of the jury. But I don't think so. It's a very difficult case.
Obviously, you have to prove that Officer Porter, you know, had intent and some malice there, and it's a very difficult thing to prove and I think that's we're at.
LEMON: What do you think happened, Andrew?
ANDREW ALPERSTEIN, BALTIMORE DEFENSE ATTORNEY & FORMER PROSECUTOR: Well, I think that, you know, it's a tough case. The charges are civil type charges, that is, they're charges that are hard to prove because they're not, it's not an overt act, it's not a shooting or something that's more clear to a jury.
Beyond that there was medical testimony that went both ways. This officer, he looks young. He is 27 years old, he is two years on the job. He testified well. I mean, he was very humanized to this jury. He talked about him growing up in a similar neighborhood.
He volunteered in the community and wanted to make his community better. I think the jury liked him. He is very likable. And I think that goes a long way in a case that's not very clear like this.
And remember, it's a case about an officer not doing something. And what is really interesting in watching the trial was when they went through the evidence, you know, the medical people went back and forth but when Officer Porter testified he explained, look, I've been on the job two years, I told the van driver, Officer Caesar Goodson, who goes to trial after the New Year, you know, he was, Goodson had been on the job for 17 years.
He said I told the driver who is responsible for the safety and the welfare of the passenger in the van what was wrong with him. He said he told his supervisors and I think there was a strong sense amongst those of us that were watching this trial that maybe, you know, the supervisors should have done something.
You know, what's really significant is that the prosecutors had made some comments in some pretrial papers that they wanted to flip or have this officer testify against Goodson later. And while having there be an acquittal he could have been compelled. He would np longer have a Fifth Amendment right to say in the state, you can't make me testify.
That did not -- they didn't get that result, a state that is because he wasn't acquitted. And if he was found that...
LEMON: But instead of doing that (Inaudible) before me saying, legal minds are saying that maybe they just sort of asked for immunity and not prosecuted him had they wanted him to flip and, you know, give information on everyone else.
But my question is that, usually any prosecutor will tell you, that you put your best case first, right? And this was they thought their best case. So, what does this mean then for the rest of the people being trial -- the rest of the officers that are going to go on trial? Is this a domino effect; is this a sign of things to come? Either one of you can answer that.
FRANKLIN: Yes. I don't know, I don't know if there is really their best case. And I don't know if that was really their strategy. I think, again, their strategy was to be able to use Officer Porter's testimony for Goodson's case.
You know, Goodson was the driver of the transport vehicle. And in my mind and I think also in the prosecutors' mind that is the most important case. And so, to have Porter's testimony available for that case it's crucial in a Goodson case. And I think this hung jury here, this mistrial is going to be critical in moving forward with Goodson.
LEMON: How is this being perceived, this mistrial being perceived by the public? A win for the defense? A loss for the prosecution? Andy?
ALPERSTEIN: Well, I think it's clear that to the people in the community, a hung jury is a win for the state. It's a loss for the prosecution. But it's not a final answer. I mean, we all understand if the state wants to they can retry him. And if he is convicted and sitting in jail, it will be of no significance to the officer if he is convicted on his first or second trial.
[22:55:04] But the perception is clearly that it's a victory for the defense and a problem and as Neill was just referring to, I don't think that they put their best case forward. They put -- this is an officer who made a statement.
He's the only one that made a real meaningful statement and they need his testimony apparently, to get to Goodson because the state made it clear that they wanted him as a potential witness. This hung jury thing really messes the state's plans up and I wouldn't be surprised if the state asks to postpone some of these other cases. I'd be surprise if the judge did that, but I think that's probably going to be their next move.
LEMON: There will be a retrial, do you think and do you think that there will be a change in venue?
AKPERSTEIN: I don't think this has any impact on a change in venue. Some people are asking that down here today on the street. And I really don't think it has any relationship to it. The judge was able to pick a jury in two and a half days in this case.
I think it will take a little longer with the next officer, but I think the venue is going to stay here. This judge has been adamant about, you know, if we can get it done here we're going to get it here. And he's really been moving it very quickly, not only getting it to trial quickly but also the trial was moving very briskly.
LEMON: All right.
FRANKLIN: I'm very confident that there is going to be a retrial because that's what the data indicates that that it's always in favor of the prosecution to retry. And they have the better odds of winning the second time around.
LEMON: All right. Neill and Andy, stand -- stick by, we're going to see you in our next hour. So, thank you.
When we come right back, the number one issue in this election, what is it? Terror. And which candidate can keep America safe?
[23:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
LEMON: You hear the republicans go head to head.