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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Cruz Challenges Trump To One-On-One Debate; Cruz Addresses Trump Debate Controversy; Which Candidates Are Recognizable in Iowa?; Michigan's Governor On Flint Water Crisis; Message From Oregon Protest Leader; Arrested Oregon Standoff Leader To Followers: Go Home; American Held In Iranian Prison Speaks Out; Michigan Governor: I Won't Resign. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired January 27, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Good evening, thanks for joining us.
Tonight the biggest, baddest, this time it's personal high stakes showdown in all of American politics. Yes, and there is also those caucuses on Monday. And that Republican debate tomorrow. Basically, sometimes bizarro planet called politics got knocked off its axis by Donald Trump showdown with FOX News. That is him campaigning right now in South Carolina.
The showdown became all at-war last night when he backed out of the debate taking shots at moderator Megyn Kelly for he says treating him unfairly in FOX News president Roger Ailes for a snarky press release that FOX put out.
Today he called Kelly a lightweight, because, as he put it, he refuses to call her a bimbo. Calling her a bimbo, he tweeted, would be politically incorrect. That's the kind of day it's been. It's also been a day for FOX News, which used to be a GOP gate-keeper to scramble to fix things for Trump and for Trump show that he is the clout not to care. And that is only a taste of it. He just unveiled what he will be doing tomorrow night instead of debating.
Our Jim Acosta is traveling with the Trump campaign. He joins us now. So what about this event he says he's going to have tomorrow night?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I understand the Trump campaign made it official earlier this evening, putting out a press release, announcing that Donald Trump will essentially be holding a counter programming rival event across town in Des Moines. It will be held at Drake University. And it's going to be benefitting veterans' organizations, according to the Trump campaign.
Now we should point out, we are at this event with Donald Trump behind me here in South Carolina. He has not really addressed this debate controversy at all. He has only touched on it a couple times, saying he refuses to talk about it. He noted the fact there have been, you know, a number of debates so far. And that he feels like he was treated unfairly in that debate that featured FOX News and Megyn Kelly. But that's essentially it. But, you know, when I asked a senior Trump campaign official
(INAUDIBLE) earlier this evening, well, is there any chance that Donald Trump could do both of these events, his event and the debate Lewandowski flatly said no, not really because they are going on at the same time. And Anderson, invitations are going out to Trump supporter. So it's a lot to unravel at this point if Donald Trump is somehow going to change his mind at the last minute and do this debate tomorrow night.
COOPER: Again, I mean, Donald Trump, part of his genius is it seems like everybody has an opinion about this decision he has made. You have been talking to people down in South Carolina. How are the people you're talking to reacting?
ACOSTA: As a matter of fact, and perhaps it's not too surprising, because we are at a Donald Trump rally, many of the people here support Donald Trump's decision. Here's a bit of what they had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kind of reminds me of Tiger Woods skipping a PGA event and he realizes that he can even cause more attraction to himself by this move, and probably lengthen his lead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't like the idea of Kelly, you know, trying to give him these types of questions but I really think he should go to the debate.
ACOSTA: You do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
ACOSTA: You think it might hurt him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. It won't hurt him with me. But it might hurt him with someone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's OK if he skips. That's his decision. I actually think it will move him up in the polls.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I do.
ACOSTA: You think it will help him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do think it will help him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ACOSTA: Now Anderson, that gives you sort of a variety of opinions as to what Donald Trump is doing tomorrow night. But I have to tell you, from talking to a number of people, more than just the people we showed onscreen, people here are having a visceral reaction in favor of Donald Trump, and really against FOX News. And Anderson, covering Republican politics for a long time, it is very strange to hear conservatives going off on FOX News at a Donald Trump rally but we're hearing that tonight, Anderson.
COOPER: Jim Acosta, thank you.
One way or another, this has turned what might have been a conversation by the candidates and their strategies from now with the caucuses and into something exclusively about one Donald J. Trump.
Joining us now chief national correspondent John King, host of "INSIDE POLITICS." Also, chief political analyst Gloria Borger and Brian Stelter, host of CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES."
Now, Trump says, Brian, that it was the statement by FOX News that caused him to back out of the debate. Do you actually buy that?
BRIAN STELTER CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: I think it was the last straw. There might have been an overreaction by both these men, Roger Ailes and Donald Trump. Roger Ailes may have over reacted with the statement. And Donald Trump may have overreacted by walking away from the debate.
Now, I think the view from FOX, is that Trump was always looking for an excuse to get out of the debate. That he didn't want to face Ted Cruz tomorrow night. You can choose to believe that or you can choose not to. This might be a petty, personal argument that's playing out in front of the whole country because these two men are so powerful.
COOPER: But Brian, I mean, Trump has talked about kind of shenanigans with debates at just about every debate. He's talked about, maybe I won't do it, or maybe I'll --
STELTER: Maybe donate to -- right.
COOPER: So, I mean, it's not completely out of the ordinary that he has an issue with the debate or has been kind of toying with the idea.
STELTER: No. Maybe the difference this time is that we are only a few days from the Iowa caucus. More pressure on the line. There is more at risk. And, of course, he believes he has more power than ever, as he consolidates his lead. He knows other television networks will air his event tomorrow night and he'll get a lot of attention for it. And once again, he is like the Poppet master. He is pulling the strings in the situation.
[20:05:01] COOPER: And every all other candidates, Ted Cruz, among of them are having a reaction too.
Gloria, you are on the ground talking voters in Iowa. How is his decision being viewed right now in people you're talking to?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, at a Trump rally last night that I was at, the diehard Trump supporters were fine. We know who he is. He is not a surprise to any of us. We know what he would say. And they' are kind of like, let's take a look at how these other guys look without him on the stage. But I was at a Marco Rubio rally earlier today. Another Ted Cruz
rally now. And folks there particularly undecided voters. And believe it or not, there are a lot of undecided voters here. They are saying he should show up. Because for those voters, they want to take a look -- last look at him.
And, you know, if Donald Trump were to get all of his supporters out to the polls, he would win. He wouldn't need those undecided voters. But the big question about Trump is, whether those people will actually participate.
BORGER: If they don't, those undecided voters become more important.
COOPER: John, I mean, you know, there's a method to a lot of the stuff Donald Trump does, even stuff that seems off-the-cuff. What does he have to gain by not being there?
JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: This is the great debate, right. Is there a method to his madness or a madness to his methods? What does he have to gain?
It depends on his thinking, Anderson. We talk a little bit about this last night. Remember, and again, I'm going to say again, he is a guy who says I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and not lose any support. If he truly believes that, that could be part of his calculation. That he thinks he has enough support right now to win Iowa or at least to essentially run a dead heat with Ted Cruz even if he comes in at close second and doesn't want to lose that by being in a debate. Because remember what the first Megyn Kelly confrontation was about, his own words. She started reading him things he said in his own twitter account and he got mad at her. And he thought the question was out of bounds and, of course, it wasn't. They were his own words.
What was going to happen tomorrow night? Ted Cruz was going to turn to him because of ted's strength with evangelicals and do just what Ted Cruz is doing in his TV ads right now. Say Donald, what did you mean what you said when you said you were very pro-choice? What did you mean when you said you are always pro-choice? What did you mean when you said you supported gay rights?
Ted Cruz was prepared, after being his friend for a long time to come after him quite aggressively, and so were several other candidates, because Ted Cruz has to. Because Ted Cruz needs to win Iowa and right now Donald Trump is the biggest threat. So if you believe that was the calculation, it makes some sense. Protect what you have and essentially the old North Carolina the under Dean Smith, going into the four corners and do no harm.
But quickly, a lot of Republican strategists to Gloria's point say there are undecided voters out there. And that some are trump's voters are establishment Republicans and they might get offended, Iowa Republicans, right, because they take the process so seriously. COOPER: But yet again, Brian, he dominated the conversation with days
to go before the caucuses and he is making all the other candidates react to him as he has all along.
Rush Limbaugh talked about this and really defended Donald Trump, saying it's not about fear of Megyn Kelly or disrespecting people of Iowa. I want to play that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSH LIMBAUGH, HOST, THE RUSH LIMBAUGH SHOW: This is what it looks like. When some guy stands up to the rules and the game and says, screw yours, I'm looking out for me first. That's all this is. And you can say whatever you want, but I am not dumb. I'm not going to give you the gun and the bullet and stand still. You want to hit me, come get me. But I'm not going to put myself in your line of fire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It's interesting, Rush Limbaugh having his back on this, you know. He has been critical of some of the attacks on some of these made on Ted Cruz has had some other concern.
STELTER: Rush Limbaugh is very close to Roger Ailes and yet siding with Trump on this one. We see a divide and I think what Jim Acosta said at the rally is worth significant. For a while we have been hearing about how some conservatives believe FOX is too moderate. That FOX is now to establishment and that they don't believe, don't trust what people like Bill O'Reilly and Megyn Kelly are saying on FOX News.
Something that is playing out here. Donald Trump doesn't just need FOX. He has his social media accounts. He has other channels. He is essentially producing the Trump show day in, day out, on whatever platform he wants to. And that is a change from past cycles where FOX News was more important, arguably, than it is today.
COOPER: It's also interesting, Gloria raises the Specter of how do other candidates on the stage tomorrow night deal with this? I mean, do they go after -- do they mention it, do they attack Donald Trump? Or do they just try to use the fact that he's not there to make the most of their air time?
BORGER: Well, there's a huge vacuum on that stage. And I have been talking to the other campaigns today. And it's very clear to me that they are all looking for a way to first of all attack Donald Trump for not being there. I spoke with Jeb Bush earlier today. He said, you know, you can't pick up your toys and go home. I'm sure Cruz will take him on that way in abstentia (ph). But suddenly this elevates Cruz to the guy with the target on his back. And they will all be attacking Cruz and I was just talking to some Cruz people here who were saying, we understand that. We're ready for it. We know Rubio is going to attack us. How do we respond to him without elevating Rubio? Because now they're in position number one. And they don't want elevate Rubio anymore that he is already been elevated particularly in Iowa where he is not doing half as well as Cruz. [20:10:20] COOPER: John, I mean, Trump's opponents also then use the
line, well, if you can't handle questions by a reporter, how is he going to handle debating Hillary Clinton or going toe-to-toe with Vladimir Putin or whoever it may be on the world stage if he becomes president.
KING: That's the interesting game of chess and strategy, the other candidates are going to have to make. How much do you go after Donald Trump, trying to peel away some of his support, saying I thought he was the strong candidate. I thought he was tough. I thought he had high energy. What is he afraid of? Why isn't he here to take questions from Megyn Kelly or why isn't here take question from us?
I mean, it is most likely we will hear that from someone. But the question is, do you do a lot of that or do you think that's a waste of time. Because Anderson, most still think that first and second in Iowa -- unless there is a huge Trump collapse, which nobody foresees, first and second are going to Trump and Cruz and that third place slot is incredibly consequential. Can it be Marco Rubio? Can Jeb Bush surprise us? Can Rand Paul surprise us? Remember, he has an Iowa network too. That third place spot is incredibly consequential.
So even if you might want to attack Trump, even if you might want to get some attention attacking Trump, helping yourself is much more important than hurting the other guy.
STELTER: The candidate -- they can say he's weak, call him a cry baby, but he's over across town raising money for veterans. You can call that (INAUDIBLE). You can call that cynical, whatever it is, it's a very powerful message and Trump will say it over and over again.
COOPER: Brian Stelter, good to have you. Gloria Borger, John King, as well.
Having talk a bit about of the problem Donald Trump has with FOX News and Megyn Kelly, we will dig deeper into the allegation that he has a problem with women in general, that and how the Trump campaign answers that charge.
And later, a CNN exclusive. Michigan Governor Rick Snyder's first national interview on the lead poisoning of the people of Flint, a manmade disaster that put the lives of so many kids at risk. Tonight only on this program, his answers to some very tough questions. Keeping them Honest.
[20:15:43] COOPER: Just moments ago at his rally in South Carolina, Donald Trump did what he's done before when accused of having contempt for women.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: When I look at some of these -- thank you, darling. We're going to take care of women. Do we love women, right? See? See, here I can say. We respect women, we cherish women, we love women, and thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, you contrast that with what he said today About Megyn Kelly, saying but not quite saying that she's a bimbo, contrasted, in fact, with a lot of what he said on the campaign trail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Honestly, Megyn, if you don't like t I'm sorry. I have been very nice to you. Although, I could probably maybe not be based on the way you have treated me, but I wouldn't do that.
You can see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever.
Kelly has a habit of just speaking whenever she wants to speak.
But I can't say anything to her because she's a woman. What was that, was that a dog? It's Hillary. I know where she went. It's disgusting. I don't want to talk about it. No, it's too disgusting.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Again, he says he cherishes women, that he respects them and trusts them. The question, though, with all he has said, do women who made up 53 percent of the vote in the 2012 presidential election, trust him.
Joining us now is CNN political commentator, Donna Brazile and Ana Navarro. Dona is a top Democratic Party official. Ana is a Bush supporter and Rubio friend, which might be more than you can say about Jeb Bush these days. Joining us as well is Andy Dean, Trump supporter and former president of Trump productions.
Andy, first of all, were you surprised by this rift between Trump and FOX News, and the way Trump has gone about it, or do you think the statement by FOX was so over the top that he's justified?
ANDY DEAN, TRUMP SUPPORTER: I think the statement was over the top. And I think it was offensive, and also not funny. It felt like maybe the weatherman was trying to be a comedian and wrote the statement. And it felt awkward and odd and Donald Trump was thrown off by it. He didn't like it. And he responded in kind.
But I think what you're seeing here, Anderson, is Donald asserting control over the process. He is saying, hey, you know, I'm the guy. I'm going to control events. And that's what Americans want to see, because it's a reaction to Obama, who we feel like has lost control.
And one last thing I'll say on this. There is a historical precedent here. Ronald Reagan in 1980 took the same type of control. He skipped the Iowa debate. And then more importantly, right before New Hampshire, there was a live event in New Hampshire in which Ronald Reagan went head-to-head against the national telegraph, who was hosting the debate, and they tried to shut off Ronald Reagan's microphone. Ronald Reagan grabbed the microphone and said, hey, I paid for this microphone, because he didn't want the influence of the national telegraph. So I think what you're saying is Donald Trump asserting control and I think the American people like it.
COOPER: And Ana, I think Andy raises a good point that to certainly the Trump supporters, this can be seen as strength. And Rush Limbaugh kind of echoed that today as well, and sort of Donald Trump taking control of this process.
ANA NAVARRO, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, you know, to Donald Trump supporters, practically anything he does is seen as a positive, and seen as strength. The feud with FOX is not surprising. It is recycled. It is, you know, recycled material. He has been recycling this feud every few weeks since the first debate where Megyn Kelly asked him the question on his attitude and the things he has said about women. And it has worked for him. Let's remember that in the Republican base, the media is the enemy. It's not seen with good eyes.
Now, it is surprising that that's even holding towards FOX, and it's even holding towards Megyn Kelly. The loyalty of Trump supporters is much more so towards Trump than it is even to Megyn Kelly, who has been a conservative stalwart and someone that is well-liked.
You know, I think he started this as a hissy fit. I think that the temper tantrum by Donald Trump. But I think it's going to end up being a very good thing for him. Who can pick at a guy who is raising funds for veterans at the same time that a debate is going on, raising funds for a network? Who can pick on a guy who, you know, has gone to over debate and is saying at this point, no, I'm not going to go to this. So, you know, I think his hissy fit is going to be a brilliant move.
[20:20:01] COOPER: And Donna, you know, for all the criticism that Democrats certainly -- and we've heard from some of the democratic candidates have made against Donald Trump, what they say are his attitudes toward women or comments he has made that they have used negative toward women, you look at the poll numbers and it's important to point out, he has a substantial report from Republican women. The latest CNN/RNC national poll, 37 percent of Republican women support Donald Trump. That's 16 points ahead of his nearest opponent, Sen. Cruz.
DONNA BRAZILE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well look. Those numbers reflect where Donald Trump stands in a very large candidate field. We'll see what happens if he secures the nomination, and, of course, he's the candidate this fall.
But I just want to tell Andy, Barack Obama won the women's vote in both 2008 and 2012, seven percent, even with a woman on a ticket, Sarah Palin, 12 percent in 2012 with Mitt Romney. Women voters are looking for candidates who will address their concerned the insecurities and aspirations of all-American voters. And I think the conduct -- and basically, what Megyn Kelly did, Anderson, as you recall, she quoted Donald Trump to Donald Trump and he did not like it. And so he took offense at it. And Ana is right. There has been a running feud. This is a candidate
who is bringing what I call a punch bag mentality, a playground bullying mentality to presidential field. I don't know why he won't show up because he has dominated.
And Andy, you're right. He's dominated all of these conversations. Show up and allow Megyn Kelly to have her say. I just want one other point. We have only had in the history, we will only had six women, I believe, moderate these debates. Six women in the history of our country. So this notion that somehow or other a man like Donald Trump -- or any man, any person, would not appear because they take issue with the quote-unquote "moderator" who happens to be a woman, that sounds very 19th century. I think he should show up tomorrow, and he can still support our nation's veterans.
COOPER: Andy, go ahead.
DEAN: OK. Well, Donna, first, he has shown up to six previous debates and we'll see tomorrow night's ratings. The American people are going to have a choice on FOX News to watch the seventh episode of a boring show we've seen prior, or Donald Trump doing something completely new and doing it for our veterans. And I think the answer will be Donald Trump and our veterans.
And one final point to our comment about Donald Trump, and then you referenced Barack Obama and his success with the female vote. Remember, Barack Obama is not running again. We've got Hillary Clinton to deal with, and Donald Trump is very willing and we are open to looking at Hillary Clinton's record being married to Bill and Bill (INAUDIBLE) with women.
BRAZILE: Can I tell you something, Andy? Donald Trump love live, his affairs, his salacious --
DEAN: Let's bring it all on the table. Let the American people decide.
BRAZILE: Some of his books -- you like to big and get the toilet paper out of the trash can. So that's great, Andy. Because that's not what women want. That's not the conversation --
NAVARRO: Can I just say --?
COOPER: Guys, guys. No one listens when you're all other. Ana, let me --
NAVARRO: I don't want to hear -- I don't want to hear one more word about Bill Clinton to go after Hillary Clinton. Go after Hillary Clinton for the things she has done. And I don't want to hear about Donald Trump's affairs. We have been hearing about them and reading about them for years. Let us focus on policy. Let's focus on issues. This is a country that needs a turn-around. We need -- we have -- you
know, we have kids in Michigan drinking orange water that is poisoned by lead. And we are talking about who slept with who? Come on, guys.
BRAZILE: Well, don't preach that to me, Ana. You need to preach that to the people in the Republican Party.
DEAN: I'll listen to you, Anderson.
COOPER: I'm just telling you, no one listens.
Ana, Eric Erickson who is obviously conservative radio host wrote a column calling Trump a whip, saying he is not tough enough to handle Megyn Kelly but wants to handle Hillary Clinton. When you have a prominent conservative voice saying this and I should also point out Eric Erickson, I think early on said, you know, he wasn't going to -- he lost the evangelical vote and obviously he is doing well right now among evangelicals. But how much does Trump risk alienating a very influential sector of the base, Ana?
NAVARRO: Well, guys, you know, I think he's - he has alienated already a very influential sector of the base, but he also has a very loyal sector of the base. So we are going to just have to wait and see which of the two sectors is the one that's the greatest. You know, you remember that Eric hosts a very successful event that attracted practically every presidential candidate. Donald Trump was going to attend. And after he made his initial offensive comments against Megyn Kelly, Eric Erickson was disinvited him. Stood on principle. He took a lot of criticism, took a lot of heat from Trump supporters and Trump himself but stood on principle. And I think that's what you are seeing again from Eric. You know, Eric Erickson, finds it offensive. And so do a lot of other people.
[20:25:09] COOPER: We got to leave it there.
BRAZILE: A lot of Americans find those words offensive.
COOPER: Ana Navarro Donna Brazile, Any Dean, always good to have you on. Thank you.
DEAN: Thank you.
COOPER: Just ahead, much more on the breaking news. Donald Trump's latest move, baling on some are FOX News debate and hosting his own event instead. His rival, Ted Cruz, hoping to leverage the drama. More on that, ahead.
[20:29:21] COOPER: Back to the breaking news.
Ted Cruz spending the eve of the next Republican debate campaigning in West Des Moines, Iowa. He is at a pro-life rally where just a moment ago he took a poke at Donald Trump for dropping out of tomorrow's debate and issued a challenge to a one-on-one debate.
Joining me now is Rick Tyler, communications director for the Cruz campaign. Also back with us is John King.
Rick, I want to start with you. Donald Trump now released details of his own event tomorrow night. His campaign says it's going to benefit veterans groups, basically setting it in stone that he will not be at the debate. Your reaction tonight.
RICK TYLER, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR THE CRUZ CAMPAIGN: I find it a little ironic as we exploit veterans to avoid debate. Look. He doesn't want to get in a debate and he had decided to cut and run from the debate.
[20:30:00] I think it's a disservice to the voters and look, Iowa has worked hard to have a debate here and now he's not going to appear at the debate. And so I think that's -- he's going to pay the price for it.
COOPER: When you say pay the price, do you see your candidate going after him for not being there tomorrow night? Do you think that's going to be a topic among many of the candidates or particularly among your candidate?
TYLER: Well, it's not just a topic among for Ted Cruz. It's a topic among Iowa voters and voters all across the country who wants to see candidates side by side so they can discern who is the best to be the president of the United States.
This isn't about ratings, this isn't about how much money news networks make. This is about a debate, so people can decide who is going to be the commander-in-chief. And so, you know, he talks about he didn't get a good deal or it's not being treated fairly.
I don't think it's -- I think it's very unbecoming of a presidential candidate, and I think people can see that.
COOPER: John, I know you want to ask Rick a question, as well. Go ahead.
JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR, INSIDE POLITICS: Yeah, Rick I'm just wondering, now that Donald Trump has denied you the opportunity for Senator Cruz the opportunity to turn and question him about some of his past views. I'm wondering if now if you're starting to regret letting the faux-bromance go on too long.
It was only a couple weeks ago until then Senator Cruz was saying, "I like Donald Trump, I'm not going to attack Donald Trump." But, I was just out there in Iowa and you have a great organization but a lot of evangelicals who your votes, you're counting on for their votes, well, they support Donald Trump.
Your advertising now says, "Hey, wait a minute, why are you doing that?" He used to say, "I'm for abortion rights and for other things that most conservatives find objectionable." Do you wish maybe you had made that case directly to him sooner? TYLER: You know, John, I know you've covered this for a long time. But campaigns take a process and you have to go through the process. I mean, Ted Cruz didn't have as much name I.D. as Donald Trump did.
Certainly, when Donald Trump got to the lead, you know, about 4 percent of his voters would come our way. So we had to go through a process of letting people get to know Ted Cruz in these debates and then really have a great advantage for Ted Cruz for people to know Ted Cruz.
And over time, people get to know him. They're going to know what your stand for. They know -- they've got to trust you. We went through all that. And then people finally want to know, how do you contrast from Donald Trump?
And so, we're in that process now. We're discerning -- we're articulating the contrast between Ted Cruz and Donald Trump and what Ted Cruz has been -- he's consistently conservative. He's gone to Washington, did what he said he's going to do. And Donald Trump, everybody is now learning, that he was pro-partial birth abortion, pro gay marriage, pro TARP, pro-stimulus.
Donald Trump has a horrific record for someone who wants to win the Republican nomination. He can probably win the democratic nomination but now people are discovering that he's not -- he has never been one of us. He certainly not a movement conservative and he's barely could qualify as a Republican.
COOPER: Rick, I know your candidate just talked about this on the stage. I just want to play that for our viewers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TED CRUZ, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Apparently, Mr. Trump considers Megyn Kelly very, very scary. And, you know, Donald is a fragile soul. I mean, she might ask a mean question, and who knows what could happen. I mean, his hair could stand on end. And imagine someone called you and said, you know what, I'd like that job. But I ain't showing up for the interview. What would you say?
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKERS (In Unison): You're fired.
CRUZ: You're fired. And I'm going to propose a venue, Western Iowa Tech, Saturday night in Sioux City. We already have it reserved. 8:00 Saturday night, a two-hour one-on-one debate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Rick, I mean, do you cut Trump any slack? I mean, Fox News put out the statement, you know, he says Fox News put out the statement ridiculing me. That's not why I'm participating. Do you believe that Fox News is a fair arbiter in this debate?
TYLER: It doesn't really matter in the end. What matters in the end is that you get on stage and you're not afraid to face the questioners, the questions, the other opponents. It's about the American people. It's not about Roger Ailes. This is not about Fox News. It's not about any of that. It's about running for the most important job in the United States of America, and America as the leader of the free world.
It's about, who do you trust to be the commander in chief? Who do you trust with the American future? Who do you trust for your children's future and their prosperity?
And to get into these arguments about, "Oh, I wasn't treated right and I don't like them." It's just petty and small. And I just think it's unbecoming of a presidential candidate.
And you saw Ted Cruz, you know, use a lot of humor there and I appreciated that. Because, you know, he's making a point by making humor, so making a little joke about it. But, you know, he's right. He gets right to the point. What is he afraid of?
COOPER: Rick Tyler, appreciate you being on. John King, as well.
Coming up, the candidates who spent a whopping $77 million on campaign ads in Iowa, but the question is can voters in that state even correctly identify who most of the candidates are?
[20:35:05] Randi Kaye went to a Des Moines diner to find out how much recognition $77 million actually buys.
Also ahead, Flint, Michigan's, toxic water crisis. Who is to blame for lead poisoning of water ending up in people's homes and what exactly is the extend of the damage to kids? Poppy Harlow is in exclusive interview. The Governor of Michigan, still to come.
Presidential candidates have been flooding the airwaves of Iowa with ads leading up to Monday's caucuses. All told the candidates to spend more than $77 million on radio and T.V. Ads in Iowa according to the ads tracking, Tyler McCain our Media CMG.
Now, what we wanted to know is, are they actually getting their money's worth to put another way forget the nuances of their positions. Can the good people of Iowa even identify who is who at this point? Randi Kaye went to the heart of the heartland to find out. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: We take over easy over ham.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Drake Diner in the heart of Des Moines, Iowa, served as our test kitchen. All we needed was our camera and an iPad loaded with photos of all of the presidential candidates. To test Iowans' knowledge. Some were certainly more recognizable.
[20:40:02] Who's that? UNINDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary Clinton.
KAYE: Who is that guy?
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jeb Bush.
KAYE: Where is he from?
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Florida.
KAYE: Does he have any famous family members?
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, two presidents.
UNINDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernie Sanders.
KAYE: Is he Republican or Democrat?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Democrat.
KAYE: This guy, everyone knew.
Who is that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Donald Trump.
KAYE: OK. You know anything about him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Too much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh.
KAYE: Everybody reacts like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's the Donald.
KAYE: And you know anything else about him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We know everything about him.
KAYE: Do you know anything that he stands for?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wants to build a big wall.
KAYE: Impressed? Not so fast. Beyond that, let's just say it wasn't pretty. Look what happened when I showed these guys a picture of Marco Rubio.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know the face.
KAYE: Can you guess?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm thinking that's Ted Cruz.
KAYE: Oh, guys, come on, really?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Really, yeah.
KAYE: OK. Nope.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's an attempt.
KAYE: You want -- how about I give you the initials.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That would help.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, that's Marco Rubio.
KAYE: I gave them another chance with Rick Santorum.
Who is this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to withhold my answer to start with.
KAYE: OK. That means he doesn't know. Do you know?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know.
KAYE: You have no idea?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, sorry.
KAYE: He's a presidential candidate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's that?
KAYE: You guys want to phone a friend? Do you want some help?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How about some initials again?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that Rick Santorum?
KAYE: That is. Do you have any idea what state he's from?
Rick Santorum was a challenge for her, too.
Let's see if you know who this is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yeah, I do, but I don't know that I can -- Santorum.
KAYE: Is she telling you names over here?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I told her to.
KAYE: That's not allowed. That is not allowed.
The candidate that seemed to stump our group the most was Republican, John Kasich.
Who is that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that that Kasich guy?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that that Kasich guy?
KAYE: All right.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I always have trouble with his name.
KAYE: You got some points there. You definitely got some points there. Did you know that?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
KAYE: Who did you think it was?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have no idea.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's one of the Republican candidates of the many. I have no idea.
KAYE: So he's not a Hollywood actor? He's definitely a Republican candidate.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
KAYE: Are you sure?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think so.
KAYE: You think so? So, you have no idea what his name is?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No idea.
KAYE: Democrat Martin O'Malley was tough for many, too.
Do you know anything about this guy?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is it Rand Paul?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, that's not Rand Paul. O'Malley?
KAYE: O'Malley, there you go. Do you know where he's from?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.
KAYE: Did he ever hold political office before, do you know?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Was he a senator?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I couldn't tell you. KAYE: And this slipup, priceless.
Who is this?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's Jeb.
He just said it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He just said it, OK.
KAYE: And you still don't know.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I was going to guess Chris Christie.
KAYE: That's Jeb Bush.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's Jeb Bush. OK. Well, they're easily forgotten, in my book.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And Randi joins us now from Des Moines.
Clearly, some of the candidates won't going to be happy about the results after they spent all the time crisscrossing the state of Iowa. I mean, some of the candidates spend a lof time in Iowa. Any other highlights from your unscientific experiment?
KAYE: It's very unscientific, Anderson, as you saw there. But just a few of the highlights from our final tally. I can tell you that everyone we spoke would knew who Bernie Sanders was, who Hillary Clinton was, where they were from, that they were both Democrats.
Most people knew who Chris Christie was, that he's governor of New Jersey. Other people didn't know who Ben Carson was. Actually, one woman said that he was from Detroit. She knew that.
I will tell you, though, Carly Fiorina, a lot of people had a problem with Carly Fiorina. One woman called her Carley Figurino (ph). Most people didn't even know her full name. Most people, if they did know her name at all, they couldn't remember her first name.
And Rand Paul also had a problem. A lot of people kept confusing him with his father, Senator Ron Paul. They kept thinking that was him. So, clearly a lot of work for the candidates ahead, and a lot of work for these potential voters ahead before caucus night come Monday, Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Randi Kaye. Randi thanks.
Breaking news in the Oregon stand off a shootout left one person dead. The leader of the protester arrested. Now, he's got a message for the remaining occupiers. We'll get the latest in a live report from Oregon, next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[20:48:13] COOPER: Is breaking news. And now the arrested leader of the standoff in Oregon and is gone off an early a month now is asking the remaining occupiers to go home. Protest leader Ammon Bundy was arrested at a traffic stop yesterday, where there was also a shootout that left one person dead. Occupiers said they planned to stay at the federal building but again their leader is urging them to go home. CNN'S Dan Simon joins us with the latest. So, what exactly happened last night?
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, first of all, we should tell you that things remained very tense at the scene, as you still have a number of occupiers who are still at that refuge, and it's unclear how or when this is going to end. As you just said, Ammon Bundy the leader is telling them to go home, but who knows if they will heed that call.
In terms of what happened last night, authorities clearly had been planning for this. You had a number of occupiers who were going to a community meeting, and officials seized upon the moment. They affected a traffic arrest, and it looked like it was going to be peaceful, but you had two people who put up a fight, and there was gunfire.
You had one person who was killed. A 54-year-old Arizona rancher named Lavoie Finicum who had previously said he was willing to die for this cause. Authorities, if they were hoping this was going to end, clearly they are wrong, because you still have a number of people who are still dug in at the refuge. Anderson?
COOPER: And, so Ammon Bundy has been making comments through his attorney, right?
SIMON: That's right. Amand Bundy making comments through his attorney, telling people in his own words, for people to go home, go home, and hug their families. Again, we're not seeing any movement there at the refuge of people even wanting to leave. It seems like they are hell bent on saying there for a long time.
One thing we should also note, Anderson, is that the federal complaint was unsealed today.
[20:50:00] And something in there that was particularly interesting, it said that authorities had reason to believe that the occupiers had explosives and night vision goggles. That is the first time we have heard that and we should point out that we don't know if officials actually verified the presence of explosives. Anderson.
COOPER: And, do we know how many are left at the wildlife refuge that they took over?
SIMON: It's really unclear at this point. It looks like there's less than 10, maybe somewhere between five and 10. Clearly, officials were hoping that with the leadership now firmly in custody that the remaining people would surrender. Maybe Ammon Bundy's message will get through to them. And will just have to wait and see.
COOPER: All right, Dan Simon. Thanks.
Tonight at "360" exclusive, my interview with American man who was held for more than a month in a notorious Iranian prison was just released a week in a half ago. You'll going to meet him. He was in Iran studying Farsi, he'd been there for a few months and was walking on the street going to buy his ticket home when three men took him into custody and took him to prison straight away.
They told him he was never going to leave. He was there for 41 days in solitary confinement for 29 of them, interrogated nearly every day. Now he's readjusting to life back home. I spoke with him about his time in captivity, how he got through it and how he's doing now.
Your hear that our next hour. Right now here he tells me about one of the many dark times when he was interrogated before he was released.
MATTHEW TREVITHICK, HELD IN IRANIAN PRISON: I was, you know, violently pulled out of my cell, and put into the, you know, rushed down to the basement. You make a series of left/right turns that obviously designed to disorient you. You go down stairs, downstairs again, and you walk straight and turn right into a room and turn right again into the real room. And, you know, I could not believe, even having spent 41 days there, could not believe what I was looking at.
I'm looking at a pitch-black room with a single spotlight. Pointed at a chair with an ultra high definition camera. Not dissimilar from the ones you have. Pointed at my face, and a white sheet next to the camera. I have no idea what they were about to film. The man operating the camera has a surgical mask on.
As if it's just a recognition of, like, the fowl disgusting place we are in. It was so dirty that even the staff were wearing protective clothing. And you know, I'm sitting there, spotlights on me, and they say, "Matthew, Matt, this is your last chance. You know, admit why you are here. Admit that you are here to overthrow the government. Admit that you work for the US Government. Admit. Admit it. Admit the truth."
COOPER: He's got a remarkable story. You'll hear more from him in the next hour of "360," including how he was captured, how he got through solitary confinement and the first thing he did when he got home.
A lot more ahead. Another exclusive the Governor of Michigan is speaking out in his first national interview about the public health crisis that happen in his watch. Thousand in Flint exposed to lead another toxins and their drinking water. The scope of the damage still unfolding tonight, and calls for the governor to resign are growing.