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ERIN BURNETT OUTFRONT
Obama Addresses Shooting Deaths of Black Men By Police; Protests Growing After Deadly Police Shooting; Protests Growing After Deadly Police Shootings; FBI Director Defends Handling of Clinton Email Investigation. Aired 7-8p ET
Aired July 7, 2016 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[18:59:54] DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: He told you about the incidences of African-Americans and Hispanics versus the larger culture, and that as I said earlier that people of color are not making these things up, that they do, indeed, go on, and I would hope as he said that this would be a turning point in America. All of those people that are out there, who are trying to use pretzel logic and twist this into something about oh, you should be complying, you should be doing this, you should be doing that, if you didn't have a criminal record, you need to check yourself because as the President said, the data shows, the facts show, not just emotion, that this happens to people of color more than any other ethnic group.
And if you are indeed an American of good conscience, folks of good conscience, then you need to dig within yourself and stop trying to come up with excuses to make excuses for police officers and for bad behavior and maybe for your own unrecognized racism or bias within you. This is an American problem. Black people are Americans, and we make up this country. And we are dealing with issues that we are telling you need to be corrected in this country, and as Americans we would hope that you would come along with us to help us and not fight against us because it's no good. The definition of insanity is thinking that you're going have a different outcome by doing the same thing. Clearly this is not working. It must be changed.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Strong words from Don Lemon. Don will have a lot more later tonight, as well. Our special coverage will continue. Right now Erin Burnett OUTFRONT starts.
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Erin Burnett. The breaking news tonight. Outrage in America. The President of the United States just making an extraordinary statement landing overseas in Europe about two police shootings in this country, within 24 hours. In Minnesota and Louisiana, and as I said an extraordinary statement. Let me just play the President for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PRES. BARACK OBAMA (D), UNITED STATES: When incidents like this occur there's a big chunk of our fellow citizenry that feels as if because of the color of their skin they are not being treated the same, and that hurts, and that should trouble all of us. This is not just a black issue. It's not just a Hispanic issue. This is an American issue that we should all care about. All fair-minded people should be concerned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: All right. And joining me now to talk about this extraordinary statement from the President, our contributor Van Jones, Bakari Sellers and David Gergen. Van, your reaction?
VAN JONES, FORMER SPECIAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, I was very, very proud of the President. You know, I think especially the video of the young woman with her fiance dying next to her. Many of us have built up almost an immune system over the past couple of years and almost like a fatigue with this, and this video I think just shattered all of that. I've seen people walking around looking like zombies, you know, African-Americans and people who care about the community saying this is a nightmare for any black parent.
You tell your kids, look, you know, make sure your car is registered. His car was registered. Hey say, make sure you have your license. He had his license. He say, make sure if they pull you over, you pull over. If you have a gun, make sure it's -- everything you tell your kids to do, this young man did. He'd never had been arrested. He didn't have an overdue library book and he winds up dead in this way. And I just think that you have to be able now to say something is desperately wrong in the country where somebody who is doing everything right, not just in that moment but in their life can wind up dead this way. I was proud of the President speaking with that thing. I think not just with African-Americans today, I think people across the country are just shocked.
BURNETT: Bakari, what's your reaction? Do you share that pride? Did he do this the right way?
BAKARI SELLERS, HILLARY CLINTON SUPPORTER: I definitely share that pride. I echo many of the same sentiments that Van Jones just said. In fact when I got up this morning at the most, I couldn't sleep, and I know most of my peers couldn't sleep because this happened again and you get so weary and you get so tired and so broken because it happens over and over and over again and one of the first people I texted this morning was, actually Van Jones and Ben Jealous. And I said, I don't know what to do.
I'm at a complete loss and there is no policy prescription that can fix for what happened in Minnesota. There is no policy fix for that. And so, yes, I have a great deal of respect for the men and women who are in law enforcement, and I grieve every time one of them is gunned down, but I also can say that Black Lives Matter because we're having a question about the value of Black Lives in this country right now.
And what you're seeing is that African-Americans in this country do not get the benefit of their humanity and that is probably the most troublesome thing that we're facing today. And let me just say one last point about the President. I did disagree with him on one point and one point alone. This is not a trust issue. This is simply a stop killing us issue. [19:05:30] BURNETT: So just expound on that a little bit more,
Bakari. What are you saying when you say that? Stop killing us issue.
SELLERS: I mean, we've seen this too much. I mean, whether or not you have a broken taillight, whether or not you made an illegal turn, whether or not you're selling loosie cigarettes and whether or not you're selling CDs, whether or not you haven't paid child support. I mean, you are literally getting death sentences in this country for being African-American and you've seen people who have literally flown gyrocopters and landed on the front lawn of the White House. You've seen people, Dylann Roof for example who police knew had a gun, who just murdered nine people, who at least got the benefit of their humanity. I trust law enforcement to a certain degree, but my question is, can you please stop killing us?
BURNETT: Van Jones, you come from a family of law enforcement and it's a point that you've made many times as we, unfortunately have had this conversation too many times. But you've always been very careful to make that point and I think it's a significant one because you speak and say that as a black man.
JONES: Yes. Well, you know, my dad was a cop in the military. My uncle just retired I guess now a year-and-a-half ago from the Memphis City Police Department, Milton Douglas Jones, he always wants me to make sure to give him his full name. And yes, and so I get it. And you know, I don't want, I never wanted my uncle to be, you know, one of those flag-draped coffins and part of I think why Bakari's generation in particular is so upset is because though, we don't show it on the air.
The internet today is flooded with videos of white men attacking police with hatchets, with their fists, and police going above and beyond the call of duty to apprehend them alive and it just seems like there's this idea, if you're a white guy. Well, yes, maybe you're just a drunk frat boy. I'm not going to kill you, and you're just acting out. But if you're a black guy, no matter what you're doing, you might be a threat.
BURNETT: And David Gergen, I think what is important here in this speech which I know you used the word eloquent to describe the comments that the President just made. He was very careful to say one thing that is incredibly significant. He said, when people say Black Lives Matter, it doesn't mean that blue lives don't matter which was very significant because there are many who do try to say, okay, well, if you're going to say Black Lives Matter, by definition you're taking a side, you're only on the side of the black man who is shot. You don't care about police. He is making it very clear that that is not what he said.
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLICY ANALYST: I felt, Erin, that the President tonight was particularly eloquent, and I thought he was balanced, and too often in these statements people do come down on one side or the other, argue a particular point of view when, in fact, the only way we're going to get rid of real solutions is if whites and blacks work together on these issues. You know, as a white, I feel totally inadequate to understand and fully appreciate the black experience, but I do feel, as I think a great many whites feel extraordinarily through caring about how can we get beyond the incidents and get to action and get to progress?
I mean, was there one thing that I thought was a short coming in the President's speech which I did think was eloquent and heartfelt, and I really, I think he made an effort as you say by saying, blue lives matter too. He made an effort to move the conversation forward with everybody, and what I hope he'll do when he comes back is -- is not let this issue drop. You know, too often gun control, because for example, becomes a sporadic kind of, or spasm rather than a real, continuing effort. But to bring leaders in from all points of view to the White House and to renew the conversation, to figure out what steps can be taken. Some short term but some deeply, will require long-term commitment on, you know, inequalities.
But this is a serious, serious issue, and I think the President spoke extraordinarily well and I'm glad he spoke the way he did. But, you know, and I thought Van and Bakari captured much of what I believe. But, you know, I would ask them, what can we do together so we can get beyond these divides?
JONES: Well --
BURNETT: Van, what does the President do now, right? He gives this eloquent comments, we all remember, of course, after the Trayvon Martin shooting when he said, you know, if I had a son he would look like Trayvon. After then subsequent shootings he was never so personal again in his remarks. Very careful to wait for the system, the legal system to render its verdict. He's never been that personal again and it seems like in this case he's sort of in between the two. What does he do next?
[19:10:18] JONES: Well, I think a couple of things. First of all, let's not forget this young generation of African-Americans is actually squeezed between some police violence, yes, but also street violence. The vast majority of African-Americans when you're talking about funerals is African-Americans who have been killed by other African-Americans. So, you have police violence and street violence crushing this generation. I think we have to be honest about all of these factors.
One thing that could help on the police side. It seems like we can't get easily the officers once they've done something bad, disciplined, demoted, fired, prosecuted, but why don't we start off on the front end and have better screening. We need to make sure every officer that is hired is screened psychologically, are they sociopathic? Do they have deep bias? Maybe rather than focusing on the firing, we should focus on the hiring and do a much better job of making sure.
You can't train people if they're just deeply biased, and we are not screening across this country for sociopathic behavior, for gender bias, for gender bias and maybe we can come together on that and at least make sure that the people who are coming in are coming in with their hearts in the right place.
SELLERS: If I may, Erin --
BURNETT: Yes. Go ahead, Bakari.
SELLERS: No, I was going to say we can talk about demilitarization, de-escalation. We can talk about training on implicit biases. But when you look at what happened on Minnesota, that's what I'm trying to wrap my head around.
SELLERS: You have someone who did everything they were supposed to do correctly and still ended up being carried out in a body bag. So, I mean, this is the difficult part. This is difficult for me and my generation to juxtapose. When you do everything the country tells you to do but you still end up on the wrong side of things. So, I do think that we have to do some very serious sensitivity training and things of that nature.
We have to talk about the way that these investigations are handled because of what we have seen throughout the country is that officers, they oftentimes get indicted but not many times get found guilty and if they do, they'll face a charges like misconduct in office which is in South Carolina a ten-year misdemeanor. So, I mean, these things happen, but we have to begin to talk about something that's here. We don't have a -- we have a heart problem in this country. We don't necessarily have a real training problem, per se. We have to deal with the hard issues we have first.
BURNETT: All right. Well, thanks to all of you. You will going to be with me through the hour as we continue to cover this because the President's words coming on the back of what's fair to describe as fury across much of the country. Live pictures now of demonstrators on the streets of New York. There they are protesting the shooting deaths of both of the Black men killed by police. Both of the shootings happening within 24 hours.
And we have new details breaking tonight about the shooting of the black man in Louisiana. We are learning more about the specific officers involved tonight.
And then the FBI director grilled about Hillary Clinton's emails for hours and hours today. Did his testimony help her or not?
[19:16:23] BURNETT: Breaking news. Outrage in America this evening. Protests growing at this hour from St. Paul to Chicago to New York. Fury over two black men killed by police in just two days. The latest a 32-year-old Philando Castile shot and killed by a Minnesota police officer during a traffic stop. The man's fiance says he was reaching for his I.D. when the officer opened fire, then his fiancee began recording what happened next and streaming it live on Facebook. Now, we want to warn you the video you're about to see is very graphic, it may be disturbing to watch, it is though important to see.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We got pulled over for a busted taillight in the back and the police -- he's covered. (Bleep), he's licensed to carry. He was trying to get out his I.D. and his wallet out of his pocket and he let the officer know that he was -- he had a firearm and he was reaching for his wallet and the officer just shot him in his arm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: I mean, it is horrific. You see him moving and groaning. Those are obviously some of his dying moments. She wanted that to be seen by all of you, though, that was why she was broadcasting it live for the world to see. That incident happening less than 24 hours after another black man was shot and killed by police. That's Alton Sterling. He was selling CDs outside a Baton Rouge, Louisiana, convenient store.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get on the ground!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: And I want to go to Sara Ganim now. She is with protesters in New York City tonight. And Sara, what are you hearing from them?
SARA GANIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Erin. And you know, these protesters have been out here for almost two hours now. They started in Union Square as a rally. A couple of hundred people has turned into what I would estimate to be more than a thousand out here marching and chanting the entire time and much more than 20 blocks in New York City.
All right. Obviously, we're having a little bit of a transmission issue there. We'll going to get back to Sara just as soon as we can. But the Justice Department is standing by now and it says it's going to provide assistance if Minnesota investigators need it.
Brynn Gingras is OUTFRONT in St. Paul, Minnesota, with more on that horrific shooting.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Philando Castile and his fiancee Diamond Reynolds pulled by a Minnesota police over for a broken taillight. Reynolds streamed what happened next live on Facebook. DIAMOND REYNOLDS, PHILANDO CASTILE'S GIRLFRIEND: Stay with me. We
got pulled over for a busted taillight in the back and the police -- he's -- he's covered. He killed (bleep) my boyfriend. He's licensed to carry, and he was trying to get out his I.D. and his wallet out of his pocket and he let the officer know that he was -- he had a firearm and he was reaching for his wallet and the officer just shot him in his arm.
GINGRAS: As the 32-year-old Castile laid dying from a multiple gunshot wounds, the officer who shot him keeps his weapon pointed through the car window. Reynolds' four-year-old daughter watched it all from the backseat.
REYNOLDS: We're waiting for him --
UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: Keep your hands (UNINTELLIGIBLE) --
REYNOLDS: I will, sir. No worries. I will. He just shot his arm off. We got pulled over on Larpenteur.
UNIDENTIFIED OFFICER: Told him not to reach for it! I told him to get his arm off it.
REYNOLDS: You told him to get his ID sir, his driver's license. Oh my God! Please don't tell me he's dead. Please don't tell me my boyfriend just went like that.
GINGRAS: Reynolds is cuffed and put in the backseat of a patrol car. Composed throughout, at one point, she breaks down, comforted by her daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED GIRL: It's okay, I'm right here with you!
GINGRAS: After being questioned by police, Reynolds spoke at a rally and criticized the responding officers.
REYNOLDS: They instantly rushed their colleague off to the side where they comforted him, where he began to moan and cry, oh, my God, I can't believe this.
[19:21:10] GINGRAS: Just one day after another black man, Alton Sterling was shot to death by police in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, people took to the streets and Minnesota's governor called for a federal investigation into the shooting.
GOV. MARK DAYTON (D), MINNESOTA: Would this have happened if those passengers, the driver or the passenger were white? I don't think it would have. So I'm forced to confront and I think all of us in Minnesota are forced to confront this kind of racism exists.
GINGRAS: Speaking to CNN earlier today, Castile's mother Valerie was quietly outraged. VALERIE CASTILE, MOTHER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: We are being hunted every
day. It's a silent war against African-American people as a whole.
GINGRAS: And Valerie Castile just spoke at this vigil where Philando Castile worked for three years at this school behind me. She says she's not a talker but she said she needed to speak out and something needs to change. In a strong showing of solidarity the entire Castile family is actually leading this crowd of hundreds of protesters towards the governor's mansion where they're going to meet with more protesters.
And, Erin, it's important to know that among this group are children, elementary school, boys and girls who knew Mr. Phil as he was called from the lunchroom. And they don't know what happened but they do know they're never going to see him again -- Erin.
BURNETT: Brynn, thank you very much.
OUTFRONT now, Paul Martin, a criminal defense attorney who has also represented officers involved in shootings. Harry Houck is a former NYPD detective and Van Jones is, of course, back with us.
Let me start with you, Paul. You have defended officers in the past, and obviously amidst the broader, macro issue we're talking about in this country here, there is now a deep need to find out exactly what happened in this specific case and what happened wrong? If the officer claims, as he does that Castile appeared to be reaching for his weapon, does the officer have the right to protect himself as he did?
PAUL MARTIN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This is not a case of an officer protecting himself. What did this gentleman do wrong? What did he do right? It seems to me that we are reaching a point in our society where no matter what we do, if we follow the instructions, they kill us. If we don't follow the instructions, they kill us. If we raise our voice, they kill us. If we're respectful, they kill us. This is a pattern that is -- is -- is spilling over that has to be addressed, and I'm not sure if it can be addressed in any policy. This is a societal problem that we need to address and take it straight on for what it's worth. This is just racism.
BURNETT: Van? Racism?
JONES: Well, it definitely seems that way. I mean, part of what is so remarkable, you know, to be fair, you don't see on the video exactly what happens. You don't see him pulling the gun or him following instructions or not following instruction, but she is so credible. It is so remarkable that she's literally narrating what's happened, and I think that any jury or -- I think the reason the world is outraged is because of her credibility and the entire time she's saying sir, sir, sir.
She's trying to be respectful, she's trying to be composed in the most horrific moment in anyone's possible life or in their worst nightmare and so she doesn't seem to be the kind of person who would just be making up something there and I think that's why people feel like -- and this police officer seems completely incredible the way he's acting and that's, I think, why people have come to this conclusion that something terrible happened there.
BURNETT: Now, Harry, she is calm and collected in the part of the video that we just heard. You know, look, when she started recording this it was after, obviously, the shot. She says he was putting his hands up when he was shot. That's what she says. And as Van says she comes across calm, collected, very credible, but you don't believe that her version is true?
HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (on the phone): Well, I'll tell you what, what we have to do -- what we have to do is that her version has got to be checked out, all right? The video shows exactly her version of the events that occurred. I want to hear the officer's version of events that occurred and that video was basically useless. All right? That video just shows you how upset the officer was and it gives you her version.
People are thinking that looking at that video that's how the crime was committed, all right? Not only that, but the fact that everybody is rushing to judgment here. There is no evidence to indicate that this was a racial incident at all, but everybody is making it a racial incident because it falls into their narrative. There is no evidence of that, and I -- and people who say there is, I want to know what their evidence is.
MARTIN: This is my evidence. You want to hear the evidence? I'll tell you the evidence.
HOUCK: Yes. I want to hear it.
MARTIN: The evidence is this, have you heard what the President said? We are stopped three times more. We are --
HOUCK: No, I'm talking about this case. I'm talking about this case!
MARTIN: Excuse me, sir! Excuse me, sir!
HOUCK: Let me speak!
[19:26:24] BURNETT: Let Paul finish so we can get him in, then you can respond, Harry. Go ahead, Paul.
HOUCK: What's going on with this case?
MARTIN: Let me tell you about this case, we have another black man that's dead for no reason.
HOUCK: Who had a gun?
MARTIN: For no reason.
HOUCK: Who had a gun?
MARTIN: The gun was never shown, sir.
HOUCK: You're a criminal defense attorney. I expect that. The man had a gun.
MARTIN: Let me ask you this, this is the problem that I see, and this is something that we're going have to confront individuals who just do not want to accept that there are racist and racial components to these cases. And the fact of the matter is that a police officer would not have approached this gentleman and this young lady if they would have been of a different hue. If they were white this situation would have never occurred and so don't tell me that race does not take a place in this case! You're -- you're not living on the same planet that we are.
HOUCK: No. You're not living -- you're making an assumption, all right? And that's the whole thing here. You're making an assumption because it is part of your narrative.
MARTIN: My narrative? Sir, I have represented -- sir, I have represented --
BURNETT: Harry! Harry! Hold on one second, I know we have a bit of delay, but Harry, let me ask you this question. Harry, hold on. The point that Paul makes, that black men are stopped three times more often than white men, the point that the governor of Minnesota said today, this death would not have happened if Castile was white. Don't you have to admit that the situation may not have presented itself at the very beginning at the traffic stop if he had not been black?
HOUCK: How do you know that? How do you know that?
BURNETT: I don't know. I'm not saying I know it. I'm saying, isn't it a fair question? How can you say race played no role?
HOUCK: It's not a fair question. How can you say that? It's not a fair question. That vehicle was stopped because of a broken taillight, all right? All right. That's why the vehicle was stopped.
BURNETT: OK. But nonetheless, it's true that white people can drive with a broken taillight and sometimes not be stopped.
HOUCK: I have pulled many of them over and I've given white people summons for the same, exact thing. Lots of white people get summonses every day.
JONES: Let me just say a few things. You know, first of all --
BURNETT: Go ahead, Van.
JONES: I think, you know, Harry has a point which is that all of the facts are not yet in. We don't know exactly what happened and so far what we've seen is a very powerful piece of video evidence from one side. I think he's right that we need to expect that there may be some -- some surprises down the road. But I think, you know, Harry, where I'm disappointed in what you're saying, the statistics don't lie --
HOUCK: You always are.
JONES: But the statistics don't lie about the excessive numbers of stops. Let's not talk about traffic stop. Let's talk about something tough like drugs. African-Americans don't use drugs anymore higher level than whites, it's about the same percentage, it's about 12 percent. But we wind up getting arrested, not 50 percent more. We wind up going to prison six times more because there seems to be some institutional bias. Doesn't that bother you?
HOUCK: That doesn't show any institutional bias Van Jones. I have gone to trial in many cases and it is very hard to go to prison no matter what color your skin is. It is very hard to go to prison. And I've seen many cases like that. I've worked in some of the inner cities here in New York City, and I see a lot of black defendants walk all the time.
JONES: This is the problem.
MARTIN: Let me ask, let me say this, maybe you should travel down to 100 center street at 9:30 in the morning. Maybe you should travel down to the front of the Queens Criminal Courts Building.
HOUCK: I've been there.
[19:30:00] MARTIN: Have you noticed anything about those appearances? There's very few white people in those lines that get into those criminal court buildings. Do you know why? Do you know why, sir? Because they are arrested --
HOUCK: Minorities do.
MARTIN: They are arrested three times as much.
HOUCK: Minorities commit the majority of crimes in New York City and that is why you see that and the statistics spare that out and you do not want to face that.
MARTIN: That's because that's where the police go. Believe me, they arrest -- listen, if you go --
MARTIN: Excuse me, sir! Go down to wall street and see the brokers outside smoking joints and they're not being arrested. There's no undercover buying bust on Broad Street.
HOUCK: They're not being arrested either up in Harlem or in Brooklyn.
MARTIN: You need to wake up.
HOUCK: They stopped that a long time ago. I think you need to wake up.
ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: Van? Van?
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: There is this perception, it's not just Harry, a lot of people have this perception that African- Americans are just so much more criminal and they might say it's cultural and some people say it might be genetic and they're so much more criminal. To say personally --
JONES: Let me finish, sir. I went to Yale Law School. I saw many, many more people doing drugs at Yale Law School than I have ever seen at any housing project or black community. I saw more undergraduates at Yale doing drugs. It was crazy. I never saw a single arrest on those campuses.
So, if you went to New Haven, you would think, well, all of the poor black people are the criminals and all of the rich kids that go to Yale are not, but there is a bias in enforcement that is a part of this driver. And I think we have to be very honest about that in America.
HOUCK: That's not true. That's not true.
MARTIN: That's not true.
HOUCK: That's not true. You have no statistics that bear that out at all.
HOUCK: You said nobody was arrested at Harvard? Where a bunch of drug dealers at an Ivy League school were arrested for dealing drugs and someone smoking a joint down the street, right? Somebody smoking a joint in the street.
HOUCK: Nobody gets arrested for that anymore no matter where you are.
MARTIN: According to you, the series of killings that have happened systematically year after year after year just happened --
MARTIN: -- just happen by chance, they all happen to be black. Is that your position, sir?
HOUCK: I don't know about these cases you're talking about. Tell me the cases you're talking about.
MARTIN: Where do you want me to start? You want me to start? You want me to start with Miss Bumpers.
HOUCK: I can remember. MARTIN: Miss Bumpers, do you remember her?
How about -- let's -- you want to go down the list? Trayvon Martin. Mr. Rice? How many do you want us to name?
HOUCK: Trayvon Martin attacked somebody and he got killed for it.
MARTIN: How many cases do we have to name?
HOUCK: Mr. Zimmerman was cleared, right?
MARTIN: How many -- how many --
MARTIN: Do you hear yourself? You're -- you're not living a reality. Let me ask you a question, sir.
HOUCK: You're not living in reality!
MARTIN: Can I ask you a question? You know, I have to explain -- excuse me, I have to explain to my 4-year-old child how he has to deal with police officers for fear that he may be a victim, and I can almost guarantee --
MARTIN: Excuse me, excuse me.
HOUCK: I explain the same thing to my nephew, all right? Anybody. Any parent should say when a police officer stops you, you should comply with a police officer.
BURNETT: Hold on one second. On that point, Harry, Harry, on that point from what the president said and what Paul just said, though, don't you admit that it is impossible for you or your nephew assuming that he is white, to truly understand what it is like to be black when you are dealing with police? Do you acknowledge that there is a difference?
HOUCK: I don't know. I can't read minds. I don't know. I can't tell you that.
I'm not black. I can't tell you that.
You know, I have worked in a lot of the bad areas here in New York City, all right, you know, I've tried to help as many people as I can. Listen, I have put my life and many police officers put their lives on the line for minorities every day and to say that police departments are systematically racist is a ridiculous statement.
MARTIN: Erin, the problem is not the police department. It's a societal problem. I think we have a society where African-Americans or people of color are viewed as a threat and as long as we are viewed as --
HOUCK: No, they're not.
MARTIN: Excuse me, sir.
HOUCK: I never viewed an African-American as a threat at all. Never, unless they made some kind of threat.
MARTIN: Except for you, Harry.
JONES: Except for you.
HOUCK: And a couple other thousand police officers I know.
MARTIN: Sir, you didn't hear what I said.
BURNETT: Let Paul finish his point, Harry. Then you can respond. Go ahead, Paul.
MARTIN: This is not a police department problem.
[19:35:02] I believe a majority of all police are good police. I believe a majority of police officers want to do the right thing. And I also understand that they want to get home at night.
But this is not a police issue. This is a society issue, and the problem is, is that we have a society in which they are threatened or fear for the African-American or person of color, and that goes to police officers that are black -- excuse me, sir. That goes for police officers that are black, white, Hispanic or Asian, and -- and it's an issue that we'll have to deal with.
BURNETT: Let Harry respond, Van, because I said he could and then Van. Go ahead, Harry.
HOUCK: I don't know any police officer -- I don't know any police officer who I have worked with in the 25 years and now that is afraid of an African-American because he's an African-American or because he's black.
JONES: Can I say something?
HOUCK: I don't know anybody like that. Maybe you do. Then maybe you should not be a police officer.
JONES: Here's what I think is interesting.
BURNETT: Van, final word.
JONES: If you're home trying to watch this and understand this, there's something called unconscious bias, and it turns out it's not -- HOUCK: That's a new narrative. You guys made that up recently in the
last six months.
JONES: Harry, I let you talk.
Here's the thing, you are so rude and interruptive that you are making my point. This relationship between police officers and African- Americans, no matter how respectful we are, this is the way that it goes down even on national television. So let me finish.
There is something that's being proven by science, brain science, it's something called subconscious bias. It turns out that people, even subconsciously see women and men differently. Even subconsciously, they'll see African-Americans differently, including African-Americans may register seeing an African-American face as a threat.
It's not a conscious thing. All of us consciously don't want to be that way, but you can show it's a problem. If we're all willing to say, maybe there's some subconscious bias, we can work together. But if we have to pretend that every single police officer is an angel and a saint who has never had a single, bad, wayward thought, we'll never get anywhere.
BURNETT: All right. I'm going to leave it there, thank you for a very provocative and frankly, very honest conversation. I appreciate it. I know our viewers do, as well.
And next, we continue to cover the breaking news. New details about the police officers that were involved in the shooting in Louisiana of a black man outside a convenience store. We're going to go live to Baton Rouge for those new details.
And the FBI director and Hillary Clinton's emails with a four-hour testimony today. We'll be right back.
[19:41:33] BURNETT: Breaking news: protests being held in cities across this country after two deadly police-involved shootings were caught on camera, that includes Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where police shot and killed a man selling music at a convenience store. A senior law enforcement source now confirming to CNN that officers pulled a gun from Alton Sterling's body.
So, we do now know that that happened. Video of the killing show Sterling's hands were empty, though, as he was tackled to the ground and pinned down by both officers and five shots were then fired, and then they removed the gun.
Those officers are now on administrative leave.
OUTFRONT now in Baton Rouge is Martin Savidge.
And, Martin, obviously, the details of exactly what happened are so crucial here. You have new details tonight about these specific officers involved. What do you know? MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The two officers are Howie Lake
and Blane Salamoni, and we have recovered through the FOIA, Freedom of Information, over 600 pages of documents. It's basically their personnel file.
Here's what you know, Howie Lake, the officer that was involved has been involved in the shooting of another person. It happened in December 2014. He was with other Baton Rouge police officers chasing a suspect. That suspect according to these records opened fire and he returned fire and that suspect survived.
Also, we find out that both of these men have suffered from use of force complaints. It's several of them, however, I have to point out if you're a cop on a beat today it's rare that you wouldn't have a use of force complaint filed against you by someone you take into custody. No disciplinary action was taken against either man.
And also, when it comes to Blane Salamoni, I should point out, he comes from a family that has dedicated itself to law enforcement and public service. His wife is EMT of the Year here in Baton Rouge. His mother is a retired police officer from the Baton Rouge police force. His father is on the command staff several years ago and was being considered as a possibility of a chief of police.
It you think it might earn him favorite positioning in this investigation, remember, the feds are the ones taking the lead, Erin.
BURNETT: Now, Martin, it's pretty incredible to learn more about these individuals because it is going to be so crucial their side of the story. In terms of how this started, we've now learned the 911 call that came in about the shooting came from a homeless man. What made him make that actual call? The video comes from the police cams, but he made the call.
SAVIDGE: Right. The call is what started it all, and the reason according to the sources that we have with the investigation, CNN's Nick Valencia learned, that the homeless man allegedly had gone to Mr. Sterling several times that evening, apparently wanting money and Sterling finally just said he had enough of it, and according to this person lifted his shirt to reveal the gun.
So, it was later that the homeless man who had a cell phone called the authorities and that's what began the tragic chain of events -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Martin Savidge, thank you very much.
And these officers' actions now under incredible scrutiny, but what goes through the mind of a police officer when they respond to an incident like this?
Miguel Marquez is OUTFRONT.
(EXPLETIVE DELETED) MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The video, shocking,
but also revealing details of what happened early Tuesday morning in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
DARRIN PORCHER, PHD/CRIMINAL JUSTICE EXPERT: Anything that could have went wrong did go wrong in this particular scenario.
MARQUEZ: Darrin Porcher, 20 years with the NYPD, including training cadets in the use of force and internal affairs says despite having limited video, Alton Sterling's death, it was clear there were problems from the start, particularly in that police were responding to a call about a man with a gun. They should have called for backup and not tried to make an arrest themselves.
PORCHER: What I draw from this is the use of a firearm is questionable in this particular scenario.
MARQUEZ: Questionable because it's unclear if the 37-year-old actually reached for his gun that was in his right pocket. From a second angle, you can see Sterling's left arm pinned down by police, but his right arm?
PORCHER: Right now, we have the deceased -- his hand is being held by one of the other officers, however, a split second later it disappears.
MARQUEZ: Less than two seconds after Alton Sterling's right hand disappears, two shots, then three more.
PORCHER: This is something that happens in a split second. I question the use of force in this video.
MARQUEZ: He says we still don't know what led up to the confrontation between police and Alton Sterling or why the officers felt it necessary to confront Sterling rather than wait for backup.
POLICE OFFICER: I told him to get his hand out!
MARQUEZ: Similar questions, 1,200 miles away in Falcon Heights, Minnesota. The video streaming live on Facebook Wednesday evening.
DIAMOND REYNOLDS: We are waiting for a backup --
REYNOLDS: I will, sir. No worries. I will.
PORCHER: A loved one has just been shot by police. The officer is on one side. His adrenaline is through the roof, but this lady is patient. She's reporting this information over cell phone. The officer should be the avid professional, not the witness.
REYNOLDS: He was just getting his license and registration, sir. MARQUEZ: Diamond Reynolds calmly explains to the officer repeating
three times in exact terms during the nine-minute video that her boyfriend Philando Castile had a permit to carry a weapon, had told the officer that and said he was reaching for his wallet.
PORCHER: I believe her statements are credible. Here we have a licensed gun owner, a licensed gun owner goes through a course in how to introduce the documentation in your firearms if stopped by police.
MARQUEZ: We're down at Union Square in New York where a second bunch of protesters about several hundred of them are rallying for justice and equality and they're marching south in Manhattan, and they will perhaps join the other group that's marched north.
Two things to keep in mind, though, with the two different shootings that we've had over the last couple of days, in Baton Rouge, there were body-worn cameras on police that will tell us more about the confrontation that led up to Mr. Sterling's death.
But in Minnesota, there were no body cameras on those police. It will make an investigation of how this went from a taillight out to a deadly shooting, much more difficult to solve -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Thank you very much, Miguel.
And next, the FBI director grilled over Hillary Clinton emails for hours and hours today. Republicans are saying this is not over.
[19:52:04] BURNETT: Breaking news: the FBI director defending his decision not to charge Hillary Clinton with a crime for her use of a private email server while she was secretary of state. He insisted in four and a half hours of testimony before Congress that he didn't bow to political pressure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES COMEY, FBI DIRECTOR: I did not coordinate that with anyone. The White House, the Department of Justice, nobody outside the FBI family had any idea what I was about to say. I say that under oath. I stand by that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BURNETT: The Clinton campaign says that the case is officially closed. In a statement saying, "The director's explanation shut the door on any remaining conspiracy theories once and for all. While the Republicans may try to keep this issue alive, this hearing proved those efforts will only backfire."
But the problem is, there is a lot of bad news in this for Clinton, and Joe Johns is OUTFRONT.
REP. JASON CHAFFETZ (R-UTAH), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: Mystified and confused.
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIRO WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): FBI Director James Comey under fire from Republicans vigorously defending the agency's decision not to recommend charges against Hillary Clinton over her handling of classified information on her private email server.
COMEY: I think she was extremely careless. I think she was negligent and that I could establish. What we can't establish is that she acted with the necessary criminal intent.
JOHNS: Republicans trying to get Comey to draw first blood.
CHAFFETZ: So if Hillary Clinton or if anybody had work said at the FBI under this fact pattern, what would you do to that person?
COMEY: There would be a security review and an adjudication of their suitability and a range of discipline could be imposed from termination to reprimand and in between suspensions, loss of clearance.
JOHNS: Comey was the witness, but Clinton was the focus. Comey's answers were met with stares and shaking heads from the Republican committee members who picked apart Clinton's multiple public assertions that Comey had found to be false.
REP. TREY GOWDY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: Secretary Clinton said I did not email any classified material to anyone on my email and there is no classified material. Was that true?
COMEY: There was classified material
GOWDY: Secretary Clinton said she used just one device. Was that true?
COMEY: She used multiple devices during the four years of her term as secretary of state.
JOHNS: But Comey stood his ground on whether Clinton broke the law.
COMEY: We have no basis to conclude she lied to the FBI. The recommendation was made the way you would want it to be by people who didn't give a hoot about politics.
JOHNS: Republicans suggested they would keep the heat on the Democratic candidate, opening the door to more investigations.
CHAFFETZ: Did the FBI investigate her statements under oath on this topic?
COMEY: Not to my knowledge. I don't think there's been a referral from Congress.
CHAFFETZ: You'll have one. You'll have one in the next few hours.
JOHNS: Democrats came to Comey's defense.
REP. ELIJAH CUMMINGS (D-MD), RANKING MEMBER, HOUSE OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE: If prosecutor his gone forward, they would have been holding the secretary to a different standard from everyone else. I firmly believe that your decision was not based on convenience, but on conviction.
[19:55:05] JOHNS: In today's hearing, we also got the FBI director's response to repeated claims by Republicans that Hillary Clinton should have been charged under a statute that makes it a serious crime to use gross negligence in the handling of government information. Comey said there's only been one other such case brought by federal prosecutors in the last century and that no reasonable prosecutor would have done it this time -- Erin.
BURNETT: All right. Joe Johns, thank you very much.
And David Gergen is back with me now.
And, David, you know, you heard Comey today, four and a half hours standing by that she didn't break the law. This issue of intent, but he couldn't say she didn't lie and that obviously could be very crucial.
Is this a win for her or not?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Listen, I think this is one man's opinion, but my sense was that Director Comey helped both sides. I think he made a compelling case why she should not be prosecuted, that no reasonable prosecutor would go forward based on these facts. At the same time, he made it clear if this had occurred by one of his employees had done the thing she did and work for him, there would be severe sanctions, very likely termination, and that played into the Republican argument that there are two standards -- one of the Clintons and one for all of the working people. And I think that helped the Republicans.
The second point is, to go to your point, that there are significant discrepancies in what the FBI has found and what Mrs. Clinton and others around her have told the country over the last year. And so, I do think it's still imperative that she face questions and not regard this as a closed door.
And, finally, I would note that the State Department, we've learned has opened its own investigation and that some of her top aides may now be sanctioned before this is over. It would be terrible and it would be an outrage if they're the ones who pay the price.
BURNETT: That certainly would, and of course, the FBI admitting if one of his employees would do that and one of the sanctions could include being fired.
Thank you very much, David Gergen. We'll be right back.
BURNETT: And thank you so much for joining us. Don't forget you can watch OUTFRONT any time anywhere on CNN Go.
"AC360" begins right now.