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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Shots Fired and Cops Killed in Baton Rouge; What Do We Know of the Shooter?; President Obama Calls for Restraint; Donald Trump Prepares for the Republican National Convention. Aired 8-9p ET
Aired July 17, 2016 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[20:00:22] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Erin, thanks very much. Good evening, everybody. Thanks for joining us.
The story, of course, tonight begins out of Baton Rouge. We're in Cleveland, site of tomorrow's Republican convention, but we do begin with the shooting of police officers in Baton Rouge.
Shots fired this morning in that city that are echoing here and across the country tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Those shots this morning took the lives of three law enforcement officers, three law enforcement officers are dead including Baton Rouge Police Officer Montrell Jackson. Family members speaking to the local paper saying that he was a 10-year veteran of the force and a new father. Six days ago he posted an emotional appeal online.
I want to read part of it to you. He said in part, "These are trying times. Please don't let hate infect your heart. This city must and will get better. I'm working in these streets, so any protesters, officers, friend, family or whoever, if you see me and need a hug or want to say a prayer, I got you."
Officer Jackson was just 32 years old. His son, Mason, is just 4 months old. Two other officers also lost their lives this morning, their names have yet to become public. Obviously, we'll try to find out as much as we can about them when those names are released, we'll let you know about them.
Three others were wounded, one critically. Authorities suggest but have not flat out said that only one man was involved and was killed in the shoot-out itself, 29-year-old Gavin Long of Kansas City. Now, we're naming him because investigators have specifically said they want to know more about him and they want to hear from anybody who actually knows him.
CNN's Chris Cuomo is in Baton Rouge tonight. He joins with us now with the latest. So, Chris, let's talk about what we now know about this incident. You're hearing about how this shoot-out unfolded.
CHRIS CUOMO, CNN ANCHOR, "NEW DAY": All right, Anderson.
So this is a very, still quickly and deeply developing situation. We do have information about what happened this morning. 9:40 local time, that's when this first started which was, this 911 call alerting officers to someone walking down this avenue where we are now, about a mile from our current location with a long gun. So police officers responded. When they did, they were engaged immediately by the gunman.
And as we know, the numbers quickly became profoundly deadly. You have three people who lost their lives. You have six others who were hit. Within 10 minutes, you end up having a second reinforcement of officers here and EMT on the scene. And of course, the shooter was taken out by the police here.
The larger question that's looming is why, and this man presents a very complex picture that Drew Griffin and the investigative team is working on, as you know. There are multiple identities and certainly a background that is rich with conflict with this shooter. We do know that he was a marine. We know that he went to infantry school. That would explain his, you know, success, to call it that, with the weapon. He knew how to use this long gun.
There's also a lot online about him and his expressing in no mixed fashion an animosity towards the police and a belief in fighting back in what he saw as this perverse notion of rebellion. So the police are trying to figure out exactly how this happen, was this call just an observation of the man or was it a setup, a design.
Now, on its face, Anderson, it would be enough, if someone saw somebody on the street with a long gun and called it in, it could have precipitated all of this. Online there are videos of this man suggesting his connection to these types of events believing he was called to be in Dallas at the same time as the officer shooting there. He's going to be a complex picture, but it takes you to the same place, Anderson, which is this man came here with an intention to do violence and did just that and the police responded and took him out but not before there were tragic losses.
COOPER: You know, early on, Chris, the police had said that there may be other suspects out there, then at that press conference later in the afternoon they said, you know, the active shooter situation is over, it was just the gunman who was killed by police. But at this point are police talking about anybody else he may have actually been in contact with or connected to? Is there any public information about that?
CUOMO: It's the right question, Anderson. Our reporting is that they're all over this guy's life right now. They're all around his address in Missouri. They're trying to find out his connections. It's not going to be quick though, Anderson, because they're come up with too much too soon. This man had so many different affiliations, either legitimate or desired with all types of anarchy groups and different surveillance people and different types of extreme and fringe causes.
[20:05:10] So it's going to be very rich very quickly, Drew Griffin is tracking down a lot of that. That's not an easy task. But some of the explanation of these early calls about multiple shooters does sound familiar in terms of the reporting we did in Dallas. A little bit may have been echo effect. A little bit may be just eyewitness experience of figuring this out. There was a lot of fire very quickly with, on the case of the shooter, a long gun. As you know well, Anderson, the noise that that makes and the reverberation of it can to be enough to distract and make people wonder where gunfire is coming from and from how many.
COOPER: We're also learning and we talked a little bit at the top of the broadcast, a little bit about one of the police officers killed.
CUOMO: Say it again, Anderson, please. I'm sorry.
COOPER: We're just starting to learn a little bit more about the officers themselves who were killed.
CUOMO: You know, we know that there are three at this time. We also know that there are people who are critically injured. You never want to get ahead of yourself on the numbers, you know, as you know very well. We still don't know what's going to happen here. These are real injuries and there real battles going on in the local hospital.
But one of the officers that's come out, 32-year-old, just had a son of his own. And there's a special poignant with this officer because he posted last week about Alton Sterling's death and how he felt such tension from it and such pain in his heart as an African-American and as a police officer.
Montrell Jackson was his name, 32 years old. And this post, people are really seeing it as a source of someone who really put his finger on this situation. He talked about the pain of being an officer and being second guessed in the community that he puts his life on the line to protect and also the confusion of being an African-American male who gets one type of heat in uniform and another type of heat out of uniform. And he expressed it very beautifully.
And at the end, he resolved to keep protecting this community, if people needed a hug, he would give it to them. He said, "I'm on it. I've got your back. And he was telling people not to let hate infect their own hearts and then, here he is, the victim of hate himself.
COOPER: Yeah, one of three killed in line of duty today. Chris Cuomo, thank you very much.
As you mentioned, local and state authorities really have been all over this case working to put together a picture of the man authorities have identified as the killer. As Chris said, they're searching for who he may have associated with, where he traveled, what he did online, anything really to get a better sense of what may have motivated him to do this. Tonight, we're learning that this search is beginning to bear some information. CNN Senior Investigative Correspondent Drew Griffin as Chris mentioned joins us with that.
So at this point, what more do we know about this shooter?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: First of all, Anderson, I think we should explain to your regular viewers that we are going to use his name and there's a reason for that. His name is Gavin Eugene Long, 29, he served five years in the marines, left honorably in 2010.
The reason we are using his name tonight is because police are looking for more information on this person in any kind of information that could be culled from across the country to those people who knew him. He was known online on two different websites as a man he called Cosmo Setepenra. He called himself a freedom strategist, an author and spiritual advisor. As we've been reporting, he's followed many, may conspiracy groups dedicated to anti-government surveillance, anti-law enforcement monitoring, and he posted on a group called stop organized gang stalking.
On the videos that CNN has been viewing, which we do believe is him, he has talked openly of revolution. He has talked about fighting back against the bullies and in an ominous post that he claims to have filmed from Dallas after the shooting of those Dallas police officers he wrote, "You've got to fight back. That's the only way a bully knows to quit." That's the picture that's being painted at least across his own social media of a person who obviously had some kind of beef with the police who came to Baton Rouge this morning and from what we can determine seems to have come here for one reason and that was to hunt police. Anderson?
COOPER: Just so sickening. Drew Griffin, we'll continue to follow those leads. I want to go to Fred Jackson, he's Montrell Jackson's uncle. He joins us now by phone.
Fred, I'm so sorry for your loss, for your family's loss. Please tell us about your nephew. What kind of guy was he?
FRED JACKSON, MONTRELL JACKSON'S UNCLE: Anderson, you know, I've been in Michigan for the last 23 years coaching college football. But I will go home two or three times a year. And every time you would go, you get an opportunity to see this young man.
[20:10:02] He's my youngest brother's son. And he was going to be 33 years old, going to be 34 this December, and just a tremendous dedicated individual. Really believed in what he was doing, believed in helping people. That was his whole thing. He want to help other people.
COOPER: And he got a young baby.
JACKSON: Yes. Haven't been that long. I think three or four months old. You know, every time I had an opportunity to talk to him, he was all about what he could do to help other people. He just wanted to do things. He just thought he could do something to help Baton Rouge be a better city in which he live, a tremendous young fellow.
COOPER: He'd written online in the wake of the Alton Sterling shooting about some of the pressures he was facing, the difficulties he was facing, the difficulties he was facing but being a police officer, is that something he always wanted to do?
JACKSON: Yes. That's what Jose, my brother's name's Jose, was telling me he always wanted to be somewhere that he can be protective and be dedicated, I guess, on people. And, you know, he is just with a self-motivated person who thought he could do something to help, you know, just other people be better. And that's -- he's been like that all his life, just a dedicated young man. That's just the way he was.
COOPER: I can't imagine how his family is holding up now. I mean, where do you go from here?
JACKSON: It's very, very tough. I just talked to my sister and my brother who still live there. And my brother, who is his father, was just saying, you know, all of the time when he was around, it was all based on the fact that he could do something to change, he could do something to make a change and that's probably why he wrote the letter that he wrote.
And it's so hard on them right now because it' so unexpected, yet still, when you are a father of a policeman, you have a tendency to understand a little bit about the type of job that it is and, you know, these things can happen. But you don't realize how bad it is until it hits home. It's very difficult right now for his entire family.
COOPER: Yeah. Well, again, please pass along our condolences and our thought, our prayers, Fred Jackson, thank you very much for joining us.
JACKSON: Thank you.
COOPER: There's more late developments from Baton Rouge throughout the next two hours of this broadcast. Just ahead, Donald trump and his new running Mike Pence, what they said especially what Donald Trump said is making new headlines and raising some eyebrows as well tonight. We'll talk about that ahead and more of the details coming out of Baton Rouge.
[20:15:00] COOPER: Tonight, coming to you as we are from Cleveland with all that is happening in Baton Rouge. President Obama spoke out this afternoon calling for restraint.
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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't need inflammatory rhetoric. We don't need careless accusation thrown around to score political points or to advance an agenda. We need to temper our words and open our hearts, all of us.
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COOPER: Moments later, Donald Trump answered directly tweeting and I quote, "President Obama just had a news conference but he doesn't have a clue. Our country's a divided crime scene and will only get worse."
Joining us is Trump campaign Chairman Paul Manafort. First of all, in terms of Trump's response, is that the right tone? Were you concerned at all about that?
PAUL MANAFORT, TRUMP CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN: Donald Trump is concerned that leadership out of Washington is nonexistent. And, you know, and it seems that moments of crisis, the president will come out and say something but the next day things go back to normal.
And what he was saying today was, you can't just organize a speech around a crisis. You've got the lead and the leadership is not there.
COOPER: Do you know what Donald Trump would do differently if he's president today?
MANAFORT: Well, it's not one thing. It's a whole process of things he'd do differently. It says, one, they would be having a Justice Department that doesn't look like it provides special justice for special people. So another thing that happen in FBI, that isn't pressured by the Justice Department.
Those kids of things create a sense of lack of confidence, lose of confidence in the judicial system. And so lawlessness is a part of the result, not caused by ...
COOPER: I want to ask you the appointment or Donald Trump picking Governor Pence. Dana Bash reported as late as Thursday night Donald Trump perhaps whether he speaking out loud or had some second thoughts, was talking about the idea of is it too late to make a different pick. How do you respond to that? Were you part of that discussion?
MANAFORT: It was totally wrong. Donald Trump was dramatically affected by what happened in Nice. And so, the discussion that was going on Thursday night was him telling me that he wanted to postpone the announcement the next of his vice presidential candidate because he thought it was the wrong time to do it.
It's what he asked me to do, is to come up with the plan to move it from Friday to Saturday which is what we did. Governor Pence was already in New York and he didn't come to shop. He came ...
COOPER: So you're saying pointblank there was absolutely no hesitation on Donald Trump's part?
MANAFORT: I'm saying pointblank. I'm the one he was talking to, and it was dealing with the details to change the press conference from Friday morning to Saturday morning because he was moved by the carnage.
COOPER: In terms of what we're going to see over the next couple of days, I mean, this is something you've obviously has been working on very closely. Is everything now set? What do you want by the end of this week the public to know about Donald Trump that perhaps they don't know or haven't focused on?
MANAFORT: I want them to know about Donald Trump the man, not Donald Trump the candidate for president.
You know, during the campaign the focus was on his candidacy and his vision for America and what he was going to do as far as trying to end the gridlock in Washington. What you didn't see is, who he is when he's not a candidate, which he's only been in his life for the last 11 months, he successful businessman, the successful family man, the civic citizen who, you know, did many charitable things, you know, off camera.
COOPER: So you're saying the more private Donald Trump that you see in meetings and that others, his family see, but that is perhaps not what -- are you talking about a change of tone? Because Reince Priebus on one of the Sunday shows today was saying that he thinks there's a pivot coming for Donald Trump. This is something that a lot of people have been talking about for a long time. Donald Trump at a press conference at one point said, "Look, this is it. This is what I am. This is how it's going to be." But do you see a pivot coming?
MANAFORT: It's not a change, a pivot as you call it, what it is, is a showing of the rest of the person. That hasn't been done in this campaign. The Donald Trump that I see on a daily basis is more than just a Donald Trump sitting out there campaign rallies. The person who has built a successful business that he has, the person who has promoted people based on merit, not based on anything else, and so, that he breaks the barrier with the, the gender barrier appointing women ...
COOPER: So how do you do that over the course of this? I mean, obviously, all of his kids are going to be speaking. I guess people involved in some of his charities are going to be speaking. How do you rule that out?
[20:20:00] MANAFORT: But you've talked a little bit about it. I mean, the difference between this convention and previous conventions and unfortunately I've done a lot of them is that, it's more than just politicians speaking from the podium. And when you look at the prime time hour of 10:00 to 11:00, it's going to be people who will have interacting with his life more than the political leadership of the party. Who will be presented at other times during the convention.
And so, the focus on family where oftentimes other than the wife of the candidate, you don't see any glimpse into the personal life of the person being nominated for president. This convention is going to show Donald Trump from the viewpoint of his children, from the viewpoint of his employees, from the viewpoint of ordinary citizens whose lives have been affected by his generosity before he was ever looking for coverage and publicity, as well as the political leaders that are going to be part of his new life as president of United States.
COOPER: Paul Manafort, appreciate you being with us. Thank you very much. This is going to be a long weekend.
MANAFORT: Thank you.
COOPER: All right, good luck to you.
Let's bring in the panel, Trump Supporter Kayleigh McEnany is here, Jeffrey Lord as well, also Conservative Trump Critic S.E. Cupp and former Obama Senior Advisor Van Jones.
Kayleigh, first of all, congratulations, you got engaged. It was a very romantic Twitter that you sent out, tweet. Anyway, what do you want to see tonight? I mean, you heard Paul Manafort saying we're going to see sort of the Donald Trump that his kids know and business associates know.
KAYLEIGH MCENANY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: That's exactly what I want to see and that's what we will see. This is a man who has built a successful business and also successful family. Aside from his business, this is what he's most proud of. He has kids who have sterling reputations who are business partners in his company. This is who this person is and we are going to get a glimpse about something we didn't see when Romney was the nominee, something we didn't see when McCain was the nominee but we will that this week, Donald Trump the man, I think that's exactly right.
COOPER: Jeffrey Lord?
JEFFREY LORD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, I agree. I mean, when I listen to Paul, that's the Donald Trump that I got to know before he ran for president. And he's enormously impressive as a human being when you talk to him and spend time with him.
So yes, I think, it will be good for America to see the rest of that. In addition to that, I think we need to move the Republican Party forward. And I think he's doing that and I think we need to have some of these family conversations that we've had as a political party over the last six months or so. We have them. The American people, the base of the Republican Party has made their decision. It's time to move on.
COOPER: S.E., it's interesting for Reince Priebus saying, "Oh, there's a pivot coming." Paul Manafort essentially saying, "Well, maybe not so much." Again, is it mixed messages?
S.E. CUPP, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, first of all, I think the idea that America doesn't know Donald Trump is preposterous. We have been in Donald Trump's board room on "The Apprentice". We have met his family, we've seen decades of Donald Trump.
And the idea that what Paul was laying out that we've only seen Donald, the new candidate, and only now are we going to learn his character. I don't think the American people separates it that way. I think you can tell a lot about someone's character based on the way he's running his campaign. And I think a lot of people have made up their mind about his character.
COOPER: Isn't that what campaigns are sort of about? We're seeing character over the ...
CUPP: 100 percent. Mitt Romney didn't have to do a pivot because his whole campaign was his character. We got to know him. So I think this is a clever spin on Trump's past bad behavior, but I think the American people are not stupid, and they don't believe that there are these two sort of -- these two different tracks that a candidate moves on.
LORD: How did that Romney thing work out?
CUPP: It didn't work out. But let's talk in November about how that Trump thing worked out, too.
COOPER: In accordance to that, I mean, do you really believe, Jeffrey, that there's a private Donald Trump that the public doesn't know?
LORD: Well, I think there's a private Donald Trump. I think everybody has a -- your next door neighbor has a private personality that's not on display when they're in church or in the grocery store. Sure, absolutely. I do believe that.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I mean, I do think that his success as a father is extraordinary. And I think most people admire that. Unfortunately, we need a dad now. We need a father figure now. And he's showing up more as the drunk uncle tweeting this horrible stuff today while people are grieving.
And I thought, I thought that he had an opportunity. When the president said, "Let's make sure that today of all days, where we have dead police officers whose families are still in shock, let's try to moderate our tone.
For him to come out, that wasn't dad in chief. That was your crazy uncle pouring more fuel on the fire. And I am concerned about what will happen this week in this town if we don't see more restraint and more concern and more consideration for the safety of law enforcement as well as ordinary citizens.
We don't need a cycle of violence and that can be fueled by rhetoric from this convention.
MCENANY: So, what we needed that would be there, that's exactly what we need. What Mike Pence said today and Donald Trump said today is exactly right. We need someone to stand up and not rush to judgment in these situations. Let's just stand up and say, "I'm here, it's time to end the violence and come together as a country because it is sickening that we wake up every morning to some extraordinary act of violence."
[20:25:00] We have terrorism, we have police brutality and this president, like it or not, has taken the most divisive tone I have seen of any president in the last seven years, rushing to judgment in Ferguson, opening a civil rights case before any of the fact were out. And by the way, hands up, don't shoot was the biggest lie of the year.
JONES: Look, if you're going to talk about that civil rights investigation it actually uncovered tremendous amounts of racism. And so, in fact -- hold on a second. You raised the question of that investigation, that investigation actually uncovered racism. And I think it's important he did it.
COOPER: We got to take a break here, a lot other to talk about. I have in a moment, more breaking news. Donald Trump obviously Donald Trump and his chosen running mate Mike Pence sat down for their first interview together on "60 Minutes", what trump said when he was asked about Pence's vote in favor of the Iraq War in the same vote that he slammed Hillary Clinton for casting.
COOPER: Welcome back. We're in Cleveland on the eve of the Republican National Convention where, of course, Donald Trump and his newly named running mate, Indiana Governor Mike Pence, are expected to be formally nominated later this week.
[20:30:00] Tonight, they gave their first interview together that aired on "60 Minutes." Terrorism was part of the conversation, and so was the Iraq war and Pence's vote in favor of it. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESUMPTIVE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Look, we are going to get rid of ISIS big league and we're going to get rid of them fast and we're going to use surrounding states, we're going use NATO probably. And we're going to declare war. It is war. When the World Trade Center comes tumbling down with thousands of people being hit, people still -- I have friends that are still ...
LESLEY STAHL, CBS ANCHOR: But we did go to war, if you remember, we went to Iraq.
TRUMP: Yeah, you went to Iraq, but that was handled so badly and that was the war -- by the way, that was a war that we shouldn't have entered because Iraq did not knock down.
STAHL: You're running mate voted for it.
TRUMP: I don't care.
STAHL: What do you mean you don't care that he voted?
TRUMP: It's a long time ago and he voted that way and they were also misled. A lot of the information was given to people ...
STAHL: But you hopped on this.
TRUMP: ... but I was against to the war in Iraq from the beginning.
STAHL: Yeah, but you've used that vote of Hillary's that was the same as Governor Pence as the example of her bad judgment.
TRUMP: Many people have and frankly, I'm one of the few that was right on Iraq.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Back with the panel joining the conversation, CNN Senior Political Commentator David Axelrod who served obviously as a senior adviser in the Obama administration, also, CNN Chief Political Analyst Gloria Borger.
So, I mean, is it hypocritical for Donald Trump to say, "Oh, its fine for Mike Pence to vote that way and get go after Hillary Clinton."
GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: And to say it was a long time ago? In -- I think in Donald Trump's mind he's at the top of the ticket and that's all that counts. It doesn't matter what Mike Pence was or was not for because in addition of the war in Iraq they disagree with each other on a whole host of issues.
One other thing I would also say is that Trump on Howard Stern back in the day was asked whether he was for invading Iraq and he said, "Yeah, I guess so." I wish the first time it was done correctly so that may not actually be accurate.
COOPER: But later on he ...
BORGER: Later on -- of course, but it's just one of a lot of issues. And, you know, Donald Trump's approach to this, and you can see it from this interview and from their introduction of Pence on the national stage is that this is about what Donald Trump believes. It is not about what Mike Pence believes.
COOPER: Kayleigh, as a Trump supporter, does it weaken Trump's argument against Hillary Clinton that she has no judgment because of the Iraq war vote when in fact his vice president, he said there it doesn't matter.
MCENANY: I don't think so because when he talks about Hillary Clinton and her record, it is not just one vote. It is not just the vote in favor of the Iraq war. It's the leading the charge into Libya to topple a dictatorship that been there after ISIS swelled (ph) in and took over the country.
COOPER: Donald Trump also was in favor of Libya as well.
MCENANY: I think Syria is the one where there was some issue, but ...
COOPER: No, Libya. He said -- he actually said -- I mean, later said it was a surgical strike.
MCENANY: He was sore a surgical takeout which is very different than overtaking an entire country. So there's nuances there that are very important. But not only that, if Hillary Clinton sat in an administration, she was the chief architect of Obama's foreign policy with part of an administration where ISIS was called J.V. She never spoke out against this administration.
In fact, she whole heartedly endorsed it as she ran for president. She oversaw the destruction of the Middle East. It's on fire, every single country. ISIS is 40,000 strong and we are seeing terrorist attacks everyday. She was the chief architect.
COOPER: Donald Trump also spoke about his temporary ban on Muslims. Let's listen to what Lesley Stahl asked.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STAHL: Mr. Trump you have called for a temporary ban on Muslims entering the United States? Do you agree with that?
GOV. MIKE PENCE, (R) INDIANA: I do. In fact in Indiana we suspended the Syrian refugee program in the wake of a terrorist attack. We have no higher priority than the safety and security of the people in this country and Donald Trump is right to articulate that view.
STAHL: In December you tweeted, and I quote you, "Calls to ban Muslims from entering the U.S. are offensive and unconstitutional."
TRUMP: So you call it territories, OK. We're going to do territories. We're going not let people come in from Syria that nobody knows who they are. Hillary Clinton wants 550 percent more people to come and then Obama who doesn't know what he said.
STAHL: So are you changing?
TRUMP: So we're going to -- no, I call it whatever you want. We'll call it territories, OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: I mean that's right. I think Mike Pence didn't really answer whether not he had -- or how he came to change his position on that, but it is interesting.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah, it is. Look, the whole interview to me had -- it was every bit as comfortable as the roll out yesterday of Pence's nomination as the V.P.
I mean, this is a really, really adhering and Trump said in his interview basically, "I'm an outsider. He's an establishment guy. He is my offering to the establishment to reassure them." And then he spoke about 80 percent of the time.
AXELROD: And when Pence was called on to speak it was basically to explain how he reconciled his positions that were very much unlike Trump's on trade, for example, another big gap between then. And you could almost see the bubble bath over his head saying, "You know, Governor of Indiana really wasn't that bad of a job."
BORGER: You know, Trump has said, "Come out and said." Basically this was an arranged marriage to keep the establishment happy. It's not about love. They disagree on a whole lot of issues and let's just get on with it.
[20:35:05] CUPP: But if you're Trump's campaign manager, I would never have these two do interviews together.
CUPP: Because it is so awkward to have them talk about one another in ways -- I mean, that they are diametrically opposite in temperament, in tone, in experience and politics.
AXELROD: What was interesting about it was when you listen to the interview, it was as if Pence was speaking one language and Trump was speaking another.
CUPP: They are speak two different languages.
LORD: If I may, as the rating guy here ...
COOPER: Let me guess, I know you're going to say that George Bush talked about voodoo economics.
LORD: Thank you. Thank you, Anderson. Thank you.
COOPER: In fact I almost went to you saying, "I know what Jeff Lord is going to say this."
LORD: Thank you. The point is that everything or the kind of things that are being said right now about these too were said in the day about Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush were spent the entire primary campaign saying Reagan's major economic program was voodoo economic. He was picked to be vice president. Reagan asked him, "George, will you support the platform?" He said, "I will." He did. That's the way it goes (inaudible).
AXELROD: Jeff, the difference is that Ronald Reagan didn't try to marginalize his vice president from the beginning. There was no scene like we saw yesterday, nor was there an interview like the one we saw here where Trump spoke 80 percent of the time sort of back handedly criticized his running mate.
LORD: Look, you've got -- I mean, they're different people. But all of these folks are different people. I mean, I remember the criticism of Joe Biden and Barack Obama.
LORD: That one was the garrulous Uncle Joe and boy, he sure seemed is out of place next to no drama Obama.
AXELROD: Go back and look at their "60 Minutes" interview after he was not, you know, I think you'll find a higher level of comfort than we saw today.
COOPER: Let's take a break right here. Just stay. We're going to go back to Baton Rouge. There's a lot more to follow up. We're going to talk to a friend of one of the police officers, someone who's working on the police officer and knew him professionally, killed this morning.
[20:40:28] COOPER: More now in breaking news in Baton Rouge. The tragic news just hours ago three officers fatally shot, three other were wounded, one critically. The suspect killed by police has been identified as 29-year-old Gavin Long of Kansas City.
Naming him, which we normally don't because authorities are looking for more information right now about him and they are asking the public for help. It's obliviously been a heartbreaking day for the families and friends of the fallen officers and other officer and whole countrymen around the United States.
Joining me is Kelly Leduff, the former Baton Rouge Police Chief, Jeff Leduff's son is close ties to the police community, knows some of the officers who were attacked.
Kelly, I'm sorry you're here under these circumstances. We heard from the uncle of Montrell Jackson earlier, one of the fallen police officers. You also knew him. You said that he was a cop's cop. Tell me what he was like.
KELLY LEDUFF, FRIEND OF FALLEN OFFICER: Well, I'm going to tell you. I think the Facebook quote that has come out since his untimely passing says a lot. You know, it is Facebook quote he's saying, "Hey, if anybody, protesters, cops, anybody passing by needs a hug and a prayer, come talk to me." I think that said it.
I've seen him interact with the community a lot and every time. I mean, he is just a cop's cop. Strong guy, firm but fair, loving, family man and, you know, the scene at the hospital today with his wife and young child was just -- it's something that I wish the nation could see. I mean, it's very tragic when you see the people that love him. He was a love man.
COOPER: You were in the emergency room. You were there at the hospital with family members of these officers. I mean, I can't imagine what that is like.
LEDUFF: Yeah, and it's hard to describe. I don't have the words in my vocabulary. I've had tragedy in my family. I've had a close family member murdered in this city. And it's, you know, that phone call that just, you know, makes the hairs climb up your back is unspeakable. It was horrible. But, at the same time I think our city is bent. I just don't think it's broken. Anderson, I really don't -- I think we'll come out of this.
COOPER: As I mentioned your dad is the former Baton Rouge Police Chief. You know the law enforcement community. You're tied. What more do you want people to know about Baton Rouge police and about what they have been going through this last couple of weeks? LEDUFF: You know, I think we all knew something was coming. You know, we didn't know what it was and when it would be. But my father took care of me for years, 30 years he was a police officer. I watched him put that uniform on. And he was a motorcycle cop for a long time before going into training and becoming chief.
And I remember sitting at home waiting to hear that motorcycle pull up to the house before I go to sleep. You know, it was a dangerous time in the '90s and we're seeing that kind of come back now. And I just want the community to understand that there's pain on both sides, on both side that is struggle.
And I think today emotions switch sides of the line, you know. Our city has never been this divided, but when you look at the blood in the street that was left today by two or three officers, you know, it's sad. And the blood was red. And when you look at the video that the nation saw the cell phone footage, the blood was there, it was red there, too.
So when you see us arguing about the color black, the color white, the color blue, it just really done end up. Dead is dead. Death is death. Pain is pain. Families are suffering. We've got to find a way to start communicating even if it's tough conversations. You know, we might not like what everybody is saying, but we've got to listen.
COOPER: Kelly Leduff, again, I appreciate you talking to us and our condolences to you and everybody in the law enforcement community there.
Joining us now, Law Enforcement Analyst Harry Houck, Cedric Alexander, also Art Roderick is with me here in Cleveland. Harry is a former NYPD Detective. Cedric is the former President of the National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives and author of "The New Guardians: Policing in America's Communities for the 21st Century". Art is the former Assistant Director of U.S. Marshals Service. Also joining us is Paul Babeu, Sheriff of the Pinal County in Arizona.
Art, so now police are saying, you know, at this point they believe the shooter was seen earlier in a vehicle very close to waiting in a car in New York Police headquarters and that law enforcement sources told CNN the investigators believe that the shooter lured the officers effecting making this an ambush. When you hear those details, what is that tell you?
ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, there would be only one reason if he would travel from Kansas City to Baton Rouge and basically sit there and surveil the police department.
[20:45:02] I think this is -- we're going to find as we move along through this investigation, some mentally unstable paranoid individual. We've heard some reports about some of the websites that he's been on, but law enforcement 911 ambushes are unusual, but they're not rare. We've heard, you know, over the decade that's happened quite a bit. It is one way for a bad guy to get law enforcement to respond and he can take them out.
COOPER: Cedric, we're learning that the shooter, as Art mentioned, followed a number of sort conspiracy groups devoted to government surveillance and monitoring, you know, all these people who are generally, I think kind of psychotic who believe that they're being followed by government agencies or by law enforcement. What does all that tell you?
CEDRIC ALEXADER, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, what it suggests to me when I put on my psychologist's that, Anderson, is that he very well may and I use the word very carefully, may have had some mental health issues going on. It sounds a little psychotic.
I looked at the information that was forwarded to me, and as I read through his documents, they were just so scattered, so all over the place, so misplaced and misguided. So he really could have had some emotional or psychological things going on. I would tend to think that would be my initial theory about him.
COOPER: Harry, I mean, if you were part of this investigation at this stage of the investigation, I mean, they now obviously have his identity. We know officials in Baton Rouge have the cell phone of the shooter. I assume finding out if there were any other accomplices or people involved, it would be priority number one.
HARRY HOUCK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Definitely. Although police are saying that they believe it's only one shooter. But they still got to be able to find out whether it's true or not.
Now, what happens is that the ballistics are going to be able to tell us whether or not there's more than one shooter. What happens here is has the detective I was working this case. I have detectives at the hospital obtaining the bullets that are taken out of the police officers that were shot.
We're going to look at all the bullets. We're going to look at the gun that was recovered with the one shooter who was killed. If ballistics don't match that gun, then we've got a second shooter. And then we have to start looking for a second shooter.
Now, if there's a second shooter or a third shooter, it's pretty easy to be able to track down these second or the third because -- I've done this many a times. We've got one perp (ph), we're going to get the other two. So, if that turns out to be that way, we're going to be able to find out who they are and pretty quickly.
COOPER: Sheriff, do you think this has a ripple effect from police departments around the country, changing maybe how officers respond to even routine calls because suddenly if there's the concern when a 911 call comes in that it's, you know, potential ambush or trap for a police officer that -- I can't imagine that that doesn't somehow change things sort of tactics or procedures.
SHERIFF PAUL BABEU, PINAL COUNTRY, ARIZONA: Absolutely it does, Anderson. And this is where the first to say our hearts across America are go out to Baton Rouge, those officers or families and for Dallas. And we're seeing this, this is different than the normal threats that we face.
Our deputies, our officers arriving on the scene when we're called to emergencies and/or there could be a robbery or somebody with a gun and officers get shot or get killed or injured, yet these are setups. These are people who are calling law enforcement or at an event where law enforcement will be present in order to kill law enforcement.
This is very different scenario than what we've seen three and five different officers killed in a period of time. And so this incident there's a lot of different components to this than in Dallas. So that needs to be made clear. All of this information isn't known at this time, but we're finding out more information.
So for us in law enforcement, certainly we have to be alert. We're trained that way from day one. However, this is a new era that we're going in. So we're going from community policing, now to people criticizing us for being paramilitary now where we have these threats with long guns and I'm a cop with a handgun on my duty belt.
COOPER: We want to continue this discussion. We've also just got some new details on the killer and his travels from our Justice Correspondent Pamela Brown. We're going to bring that to you when we come back. We'll be right back.
[20:53:06] COOPER: In just the last couple of minutes, our Justice Correspondent Pamela Brown has learned more about the gunman, including when and how he made the trip from Kansas City, Missouri, to Baton Rouge. She joins us now. So what have you learned?
PAMELA BROWN, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well we learned that this gunman was not only in Baton Rouge, that he was in Kansas City and that he drove to Baton Rouge and then apparently he was in Dallas on July 10th. And there was a Youtube video showing him in Dallas on July 10th.
So he drove to Baton Rouge after the shootings there of the police officers, and that he was with other people during his stay there. What the FBI is trying to nail down is who are these people? Are these just friend he's was going to stay with or are these people who were actively or knowingly involved in this plot?
No determination yet, but what's clear is that he didn't just go there alone and not know anyone and then be a part of this attack.
Yes, so -- and also just this timeline that he drove from Kansas City to Baton Rouge, rented a car at some point and did this. And the belief at this early stage and this is preliminary, so I want to highlight that. The belief is that he was armed not to commit a crime, rob a bank, but to attack police essentially that they wanted to lure in -- he wanted to lure in police officers.
What's unclear is whether he made that 911 call, whether he knew by walking around with a gun in a mask in black, someone would call 911, police would arrive in the scene. These are all scenarios we're looking at.
COOPER: And you had reported hours ago that at least one witness saw him sitting out in a car outside the police headquarters?
BROWN: That's right. So the very early information that came out was that at some point he was in his car near police headquarters, but where the shooting happened was also near police headquarters. So it's unclear whether he was at the place where the shooting occurred.
COOPER: We're also joined back with our panel. Art, do you actually have been hearing from some law enforcement, some agencies around the country talking about change in tactics?
RODERICK: Yeah. Some law enforcement friends have actually sent me a memo, specifically from the chief of police telling them that any call for service which is a 911 caller that there would be at least two -- a minimum two of officers responding.
[20:55:08] COOPER: I just want to make clear. This is not necessarily in Baton Rouge. This is just ...
RODERICK: No, no.
COOPER: ... these are just -- these are friends.
RODERICK: This is around the country, right. So a minimum of two law enforcement officers responding to every call for service, so that could mean three or four.
COOPER: Which is in some places they usually just have one officer responding.
RODERICK: Right, one officer.
COOPER: So that -- what does that mean the ripple effect in terms of police services?
RODERICK: It's a staffing issue. Now you're doubling up all the cruisers. You know, time off is going to be limited. You got overtime that you have to pay. So it really becomes a resource issue once you start doubling up these officers in these vehicles.
COOPER: Sheriff, Sheriff Babeu do most officers have long rifles with them? I mean, do they have, or is it just their side arm that they have with them?
And also just in terms of their vests, I mean I know a lot of officers, it seems like ...
COOPER: ... it's a level 3A, which is really just for pistol fire, it's not for rifle fire ...
COOPER: ... knives (ph) or sharp objects. They don't have sort of more tactical gear.
BABEU: Correct. It depends in what part of the country. Certainly here in Arizona we issue an AR-15, a long gun to every one of our deputies for some different reasons, but certainly to face the threats that law enforcement increasingly are meeting whether with violent criminals or an incidents like this.
We have to look at not only the training and outfitting our deputies, our officers with this weaponry but also protective gear. Not just a ballistic vest that with a long gun, those rounds because they are high poured and the velocity will pierce through a ballistic vest like a hot knife through butter.
And so when you have -- when you're fighting that kind of a tactic it's just like when I served in the military, we had thicker, higher grade Kevlar, even with ceramic plates in certain areas on the front and the back.
Now, that's military. And now we're starting to see this type of tactics. Training is going to be a big component. Active shooter scenario training as well as officer down, rescue training, and these ambushes. And ...
COOPER: Yeah, the -- I mean the ceramic vests, the ones thing (ph) that we use now out in the field in war zones. It's certainly something ...
COOPER: -- which is the higher level of protection for the police officers should have.
A lot more to talk about in the next hour of "360." We'll check in again with our Chris Cuomo on the scene, also Drew Griffin in Baton Rouge. They've been working their sources and have more on today's tragedy. That and more when we continue.