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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Protesters Marching in Atlanta and Charlotte; Keith Scott's Family Releases Cell Video of Shooting; Charlotte Curfew at Midnight For Second Straight Night; Tulsa Officer Charged in Fatal Shooting; Huge Stakes As Clinton, Trump Debate Looms; Hillary Clinton Postponing Visit to Charlotte; Anthony Bourdain Eats with Obama in Vietnam on "Parts Unknown". Aired 9-10p ET
Aired September 23, 2016 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:00] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: -- dash cam and body cam video to be released in the fatal shooting of Keith Scott in Charlotte, North Carolina. Scott's family does want that video to be made public, so do many of the protesters. You're looking at live pictures from Charlotte right now.
Today Hillary Clinton called for the video to be released. She's scheduled to go to Charlotte on Sunday. The mayor of Charlotte, Jennifer Roberts, also says she believes the video should be released. The question is about the timing. I'll speak with Mayor Roberts in just a moment.
First, I want to show you video that has been released, not by the police, but by Keith Scott's family. It's a cell phone video that Scott's wife took Tuesday afternoon when her life changed right in front of her eyes. Tom Foreman tonight has details. Tom?
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Anderson, the video starts with her basic call to the police, "Don't shoot him," as he is unseen in the white vehicle farthest away from the camera. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAKEYIA SCOTT, KEITH SCOTT'S WIFE: Don't shoot him. Don't shoot him. He has no weapon. He has no weapon. Don't shoot him. Don't shoot him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: It is difficult to hear the police, but maybe you can in the background there around 15 seconds, you can hear them shouting that he has a gun and saying, "Drop the gun."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT: Don't shoot him. He didn't do anything.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: Now, she insists they're wrong and says that he does not have a gun and he does have a brain injury.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun.
SCOTT: He doesn't have a gun. He has a TBI. He's not going to do anything to you guys. He just took his medicine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: At this point, about a half minute after the video begins, she changes tactics. Like the police, she begins shouting at her husband, Keith, warning him to get out of the vehicle and not to do something. What, we don't know. Don't let them break the window, don't resist, we just don't know.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT: Keith, don't let them break the windows. Come on out the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun.
SCOTT: Keith. Don't do it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Drop the gun.
SCOTT: Keith, get out the car. Keith, Keith, don't you do it. Don't you do it. Keith.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: You can hear the increased urgency there and for the first time, 18 seconds after she starts saying that, you see him come into view right here, moments after that comes the gunfire.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT: Keith, Keith don't you do it. Did you shoot him? Did you shoot him? Did you shoot him? He better not be dead. He better not be dead. I know that much. I know that much. He better not be dead. I'm not going to come near you. I'm going to record you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOREMAN: And then she moves much closer. In all, in that single minute she says, "Don't shoot him" five times, "He has no gun or weapon" three times, "He didn't do anything" two times, "He has a brain injury" one time and "Keith" or something to him nine times. And of course the police were yelling the whole time too. We hear all of this because she is holding the phone. Whether the police could clearly hear her and what looks like 20 or 30 or 40 feet or maybe even 30 yards, 40 yards while they're shouting at this man, we don't know.
And based on this video, we also cannot tell what if anything he has in his hands and even objects like the one thing pointed out by one station, they're seeing on the ground, there's no real indication of what that might be. Anderson?
COOPER: All right, Tom. Tom, thanks very much.
Joining me now is Charlotte mayor, Jennifer Roberts. Mayor, thanks very much for being with us again.
First of all, I want to get your reaction to the video being released by Mr. Scott's family. Does it give you any better idea of what happened leading up to him being shot because I know you've actually seen the police videos as well?
MAYOR JENNIFER ROBERTS, CHARLOTTE, NORTH CAROLINA: It's a very difficult video. It's a very painful video. And I think as with the police videos that I have seen, it is inconclusive. It doesn't paint the whole picture. And that's why we have asked the State Bureau of Investigation that currently is handling the case to finish their investigation as soon as possible with all the facts, with the complete picture, so they can fill in those gaps and have some sense of integrity of a whole story of what happened in that incident.
COOPER: And as you know, a lot of the protesters are certainly calling for all the videos to be released as soon as possible to be released right now, frankly, many of the protesters want, the family wants that as well.
I know the counter argument, which is, you want the investigation, the witnesses to be interviewed and perhaps re-interviewed if there's no, you know, being their testimony being affected by what the video shows. When do you think the videos could be released soonest or should be released?
ROBERTS: Well, it's really up to our state. The State Bureau of Investigation has a control over that now.
[21:04:59] I have urged them to do so with all possible speed, to devote as many resources they need to conclude that investigation, to get a complete picture of what happened and to release the information as soon as possible.
COOPER: The -- in turns of tonight and what you're seeing on the streets, are you concerned at all that the video that the family released could in any way affect the protest tonight? They were largely peaceful last night. It seems like tonight, so far, they are much calmer.
ROBERTS: Well, so far it does seem calmer, the last night was calmer. I know that there is just a lot of uncertainty and we just want to urge peaceful protests. It's a great for demonstrator to be heard in a peaceful manner. We hope that it stays that way tonight. We appreciate all the resources we have here, appreciate our men and women in uniform who are helping. And also our community leaders, who are actually out on the streets tonight, some faith leaders, folks from 100 black men, folks from -- just regular volunteers from different faith traditions helping to spread that word of peace. I think until we have some sense of closure on the investigation, it's going to be hard for people to feel like they can move forward.
COOPER: The city issued a midnight curfew last night, which seems to be enforced when it came to protesters. The police chief said today, he can use discretion when deciding when and where to enforce it. Will that continue tonight?
ROBERTS: Yes, the curfew is still in place from midnight until 6:00 a.m. and again, the police have discretion. If there is a peaceful demonstration that doesn't seem to be causing any harm or blocking anything, they have discretion to allow that to continue. We're asking folks who have, you know, trips they don't need to make and that sort of thing, to not be out after midnight, and we're trying to, you know, help our city remain calm and peaceful.
COOPER: Secretary Clinton, who's obviously a fellow Democrat, said to come to Charlotte on Sunday. Donald Trump might be making a trip down later in the week after the debate. A few hours ago, you said you would prefer if the candidates delayed those visits. Can you explain why? Is it a question of a distraction of resources? What is it?
ROBERTS: Well, we appreciate the fact that both candidates are following what's going on, they care about what's happening in Charlotte, and I certainly look forward to further conversations about how we can work toward reducing disparities in our country. And appreciate the candidates' interest.
We do have, you know, resources that are deployed. Sunday, we have a sporting event here. And we just want to be thoughtful and careful and we can handle, you know, whatever they decide to do, but I wanted to, you know, be open about that, that we know that it is -- it's still a developing situation.
COOPER: Have you talked to either campaign to tell them you want the visits delayed or you're just sort of saying it publicly now?
ROBERTS: We have not been contacted directly, but I am just again helping to create that complete picture of how we feel. And again, we appreciate so much the interest and concern. I have talked to Secretary Clinton about what's going on. She did call me before this visit was in question. She called me to offer support and say that she's thinking of Charlotte and we appreciate that.
COOPER: Mayor Roberts, we're thinking of Charlotte certainly, and we wish you the best. Thank you very much.
ROBERTS: Thank you.
COOPER: There are peaceful protests tonight in Atlanta as well, as well as in Charlotte. We'll check in -- in fact, let's check in with Brian Todd right who's on the streets in Charlotte. Brian?
BRIAN TOD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah Anderson. The protesters have just moved on to Interstate 277, which is where they were last night and that's where they last night when the police dispersed them and at certain point to use tear gas. We're going to see what the police reaction here is but this is one of the things that the police and the mayor did not want to have happen for them to start blocking streets and intersections like this.
Streets and intersections downtown, they tolerated just fine, but coming on to the interstate is where they've had a bit of a problem and police have interceded.
Again, a big theme tonight, Anderson, they have been calling for those videotapes to be released. The police dash cam and body cam videos of Keith Lamont Scott being killed.
If you can hear this back here, there's a police cruiser honking at them. I think they're trying to move. Yeah, they're trying to move the demonstrators off the highway. They're cheering. So, we're going to see how this crowd proceeds from here and where the police may intercede.
[21:10:02] COOPER: OK. Brian, appreciate that. We'll also check in with our Boris Sanchez, who is also in Charlotte. He joins me now. Boris, explain now where you are and what you're seeing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, how you doing, sir?
COOPER: Boris, if you can hear me, how are things going where you are?
BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Anderson. We're actually walking on Highway 277 right now. There are several hundred protesters here walking on the highway. I'm alongside, a member of the Charlotte-Mecklenburg Police Department. Sir, did you expect them to get on the highway today?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, once they started to move this way when we certainly suspected it, but unfortunate that we couldn't just continue the peaceful march on the streets.
SANCHEZ: Well, so far this march appears to be peaceful, doesn't it? I mean, nobody's throwing anything, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is, but we really wanted to stay off the interstate. It's dangerous on interstate. It requires a lot of resources to kind of shut that down. But it looks like we're in good shape now, making good choices, heading back to the streets.
SANCHEZ: Are you concerned at all about people coming from out of town and coming here to incite violence considering what we've seen over the past few nights?
SANCHEZ: I was just asking you if you were concerned that other people were going to be coming from out of town to incite violence considering what we've seen in the past few days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We expect people to come from out of town, but it doesn't necessarily mean their going to be violent. They're just going to come here and support what was going on.
SANCHEZ: How do you feel about the response from the past few days? Has it been adequate?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's been great. Yeah, I think we are out, it's been peaceful -- they've been peaceful. Because a lot of resources inside the group that are doing the line share of the work and help them keep this move along in a peaceful manner. So we can take credit for that.
SANCHEZ: So Anderson, as you heard, Charlotte police had to mobilize very quickly to take care of these folks that got on the highway. I should also mention, I just talked about people coming from out of town, I heard someone in the crowd mention that there was contingent of people here from Ferguson, Missouri. They're coming -- there are about 20 people here, very spirited, marching on the highway, yelling slogans and again, walking further and further away from downtown.
I'm not sure if this is a planned strategy to keep the protest continuous, but we saw this last night, as well. And I think that's part of the reason that there was a -- there wasn't a conflict with police, there wasn't a big line of police in riot gear, for them to confront directly. So it appears that things continue to be peaceful right now. We're going to keep monitoring this, Anderson, and send it back to you.
COOPER: All right, Boris, appreciate that. Thanks very much.
Back with me, criminologists and former LAPD officer, David Klinger, CNN law enforcement analyst, Cedric Alexander, CNN political commentator, Van Jones, and former federal prosecutor, Laura Coates.
David, the Mayor has asked for this investigation to be completed as soon as possible. Says that she doesn't want the integrity of the investigation compromised that goes to what you've talked about earlier. At what point do you think an investigation crosses the threshold? Reaches the point at which the release of a video like this or videos can be done?
DAVID KLINGER, LAPD OFFICER: Once all of the relevant witnesses who have been identified have been interviewed and as I indicated, perhaps re-interviewed, and that may take a few days, maybe a week or two whatever the case might be. But unless they are saying, the Mayor is saying that there are witnesses they have not yet been able to interview, it doesn't make sense to hang on to the videos any longer. My concern as I keep emphasizing is that the integrity of those interviews be protected. Once that's squared away, go ahead and release those videos.
COOPER: Cedric, I mean given the release of this new video by the family that's also certainly inconclusive, certainly raises questions, I'm not sure how many questions actually it answers, would you be surprised if we saw the police video sooner rather than later? CEDRIC ALEXANDER, DEKALB COUNTY, GA PUBLIC SAFETY DIRECTOR: Well, I would hope that we would, because that's what the community is asking for. But I think it is important, very important, that the integrity of this investigation is protected so that it is fair and balanced for everyone involved.
But they need to, as best as they can, to expedite and get those videos out to the public so they can share and they can get that put aside, because that is critically important to the lot of the emotions and feelings in this whole peace of transparency, just continuing to bubble up. Because people don't feel that they can trust the police. That's historic.
And in this particular case, which is a very visible one, and one in which we need to get information out to the community as quickly as we can, as to here is this footage so that people can make their own assessment.
It's not going to be judged in the street. It's going to be judged in a court of law. But it's important that people see as best they can what occurred and they're going to see a variety of different things.
COOPER: Yeah. You know, Van, we are focusing, obviously, on this most recent incident with Mr. Scott. But for many of these protesters and it's a point Boyce Watkins raised in the last hour and I think it's an important one. This isn't just about this latest incident. This is not something that has happened in a vacuum. This is about history and I'm not talking about long-ago history, I'm talking about recent history and relations between police and communities of color.
[21:15:07] VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the dangers for a protest movement is to focus on demanding things you're going to get eventually anyway. They're demanding to see the videos. They're going to see these videos tomorrow, in a week, in a month. In a moment like this, you've got to expand what you're asking for. This is probably going to turn out to be, in part, a case of a mental health issue being escalated to a point where someone loses their life.
A whole series of things they could be asking for in terms of retraining, in terms of -- there are ways to handle people who are just noncompliant, nonresponsive, not because they're dangerous, not because they have a gun, they're going to shoot you, because sometimes people mentally cannot process a series of verbal commands. People always, you know, say, well, if you just do what the police say, you'll be OK. Everyone doesn't have that capacity and police need to be a trained to deal with people, to recognize when people are not mentally able to respond to escalating verbal commands. That should be a part of the demands here.
And so, part of what's going on right now is, people are so upset and rightfully so and you have this one issue which is present show me the video, when you see the video then what's going to happen? We've got to get to a better understanding of the whole series of reforms that can lessen the violence, not just focus on something you're going to get anyway. COOPER: You know, Laura, one thing we also hear from the police is that they are shouting commands to put down the gun, multiple commands. I'm not sure the actual count in that video that that family has released. We also hear Scott's wife to shout at her husband, well shout, "Keith, don't do it." It's not clear whether she's saying, "Keith" to her husband, "Keith, don't do it." or "Keith, dot, dot, dot, don't do it" because there are other times when she says, "Keith" and then she says, "Don't do it" to police. So, I'm not -- I don't know that when I first heard her, I assumed she was saying "Keith, don't do it," and he was about to do something but it could very well a Keith and then she stops and says to police, "Don't do it" what she said multiple times already.
What she meant by that I guess is also a pertinent to this Keith?
LAURA COATES, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. Because again, I know that this is -- this case is much bigger than just one incident, right? We're talking about the national domino affect of this police distract. But for the prosecutor, it's about the specific facts in this case. Not about making an example of an officer or of the victim himself. And so what they have to focus on is, was there a moment in time when this man provoked the officers to use lethal force? We don't know that.
And that is why videos that may be inconclusive to deal with that particular fact, patting them out in the open and among the community is not going to undermine an investigation. And we're trying to find out if there was provocation, if there was a justifiable use the force.
We're talking about now, Anderson, is form over substance. We already know the substance of the police dash cam video according to the officers. Now let us see it in its form.
COPPER: Stick around, everyone. There's a lot more to talk about ahead including the police shooting that rocked Charlotte three years ago. I'll talk to the family of the Jonathan Pharrell, a former college football player who was killed while he was trying to get help after a car crash. The outrage over his killing has been in many ways renewed this week.
Plus, the latest on the other police shooting that sparked widespread outrage this week. The Tulsa officer who opened fire on Terence Crutcher has been charged with first-degree manslaughter. The victim's family sharing new details about his health.
[21:20:42] COOPER: Well, the anger that's boiled over in Charlotte this week comes almost exactly three years after another fatal police shooting rocked the city. 24-year-old Jonathan Ferrell, a former college football player was unarmed, presumably shaken when he knocked on a stranger's door seeking help. He had just been in a car crash, a pretty serious one, as you can see from the wreckage of the vehicle. But instead of helping, the owner of the house called 911 and reported that someone was trying to break in. The dash cam captured what happened next.
One of the responding officer shot Ferrell nine times in the chest as he ran toward them. The officer was charged with voluntary man slaughtered but the jury dead lock and the charge was dropped. The city settled a wrongful death suit with the family.
Now earlier, I spoke to Georgia and Willy Ferrell, Jonathan's mom and brother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Georgia, first of all, I'm so sorry for the loss of your son. I know last week marked three years since he was killed. A lot of people who have been protesting have said that anger that they have is not only because of Mr. Scott's death, but also because of your son's death in 2013. I'm wondering when you hear that and see everything that's happening right now in Charlotte, what goes through your mind?
GEORGIA FERRELL, JONATHAN FERRELL'S MOTHER: I could understand everyone being angry, because we are not getting any justice. We need justice. People are looking for justice. We are losing faith in our justice system.
COOPER: Willy, what do you think? I mean does this anger that we see from the community, does part of it, stamped from the fact that a lot of people there believed that justice was not done in your brother's case?
WILLY FERRELL, JONATHAN FERRELL'S BROTHER: Of course, you know, and not just in my brother case, not just the guy who was murdered at state or the guy who was murdered in Charlotte, I think yesterday or few days ago. There are so many different cases that are going on around the country that a lot of people are really upset and a lot of people are fed up. You know, and I think we have to call it with more solutions and really put things to action whenever it comes to this situation. We must understand how to handle this situation without tearing down cities, without doing harmful things to one another, because at the end of the day, all of us are humans.
COOPER: Georgia, I'm wondering, you know, Mr. Scott's wife released her video today. Police have still not released the video they have, the body cam, the dash cam video of the incident. Do you think they should release those videos and do it quickly?
G. FERRELL: Yes, I do, because the video can tell a whole lot. They release the video, if they have nothing to hide, release the video. And let the people see what's going on. And it could bring back peace.
COOPER: That -- you think that might actually help calm things down?
G. FERRELL: Yes, it will. I believe it will.
COOPER: Willy, in your brother's case, video of the incident was not released until the officer was actually on trial. Do you think that was a mistake and should police release the videos they have now? W. FERRELL: See, honestly, I'm glad that you mentioned that. When -- during my brother's situation the video was not released like you say until trial started. And then I think that a lot of people were not able to see the video beforehand. So the jury, they did not really get the full effect. You can see the video, then you hear the testimonies from the defense team.
When you're a jury member and you're not able to see the video before trial, you have -- you can get persuaded to think a certain way. They already paint the picture -- they painted a picture of my brother, stern away before the video was released before the trial even started. So, if the video is released -- and it's good that the wife released the video today.
COOPER: Georgia, you -- I know you have family members who are in law enforcement and you've actually kept in touch with the Charlotte Police Department since your son's death. You say you don't actually blame law enforcement as a whole for his death. I'm wondering what in your opinion needs to change.
G. FERRELL: The trainings need to be changed. To go from zero to deathly with an unarmed man, it needs to be changed. Because I truly believe, if they had been any other person, Jonathan probably would be here today. They've got to change it.
COOPER: And Georgia, what do you want people to know about Jonathan?
G. FERRELL: Jonathan was a very kind-hearted person. He loved everyone. He did not see color. And I often think to myself, I never say this to anyone, but if Kerrick could have really met Jonathan, he probably would have been one of Jonathan's close friends because Jonathan just loved people. He loved people. Jonathan, he didn't have a mean or hateful bone in his body. And he was a truly, truly loving person.
Some may say he was a mama's boy, but he loved his fiancee. He just was a good person, all-around American young man.
COOPER: Oh, OK, again, I'm so sorry for your loss, but I do appreciate you coming in and talking with us tonight.
W.FERRELL: Definitely. Thank you, guys, for having us always.
COOPER: Just ahead, the latest on the other police shooting that sparked outrage in this week. In Tulsa, an officer has been charged with first-degree manslaughter just days after police released videos of the shooting.
COOPER: Protesters are marching tonight in Charlotte and Atlanta. I want to check in with Martin Savidge, who is in Atlanta, Georgia. Martin?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the crowd continues to be organized and orderly. It's several hundred people. Their goal tonight was to get to the King Center. They've done that already. They've covered about two miles, moving through the streets of downtown.
They have organizers who move ahead, block traffic, and then allow the crowd to move through. It's been very peaceful, it's been very loud.
This is a protest that is supposed to be statewide and will continue through midnight Eastern Time, because they say the symbolism is, it is midnight in America. Given what is taking place this past week and with other police-involved shooting.
So, this crowd is made up of a very diverse group of people, both by race and by age.
And again, the organizers were just stressing, as they moved to what is now being called an undisclosed location, to remain in line and above all to remain peaceful.
And that has been the way this evening has progressed so far. No arrests, no incidents, moving orderly through the streets of downtown Atlanta, disrupting traffic, but then moving on. Anderson?
[21:30:06] COOPER: All right. Martin Savidge, we'll continue checking with you and all our other correspondents in Charlotte and elsewhere.
While Charlotte has been rocked by protest and unrest this week, Tulsa served us a counterpoint. Terence Crutcher was shot and killed Friday night in Tulsa after his SUV broke down. He was 40 years old.
The Tulsa Police Department released videos of the shooting on Monday. The images sparked intense by peaceful protests, calling for charges against Betty Shelby, the officer who opened fire now that has happened. Sara Sidner has the latest.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SARA SIDNER, CNN INTERNATIONALCORRESPONDENT: An officer turned suspect in Tulsa. Officer Betty Shelby turned herself into authorities. She was booked and bonded out.
The district's attorney is charging her with first-degree manslaughter, a charge that means a minimum of four years in prison, a maximum of life in prison if a jury convicts.
Shelby's attorney told CNN by phone, the DA's decision to charge her was a rush to judgment. But the family of Terence Crutcher, a father of four, seen here in this police helicopter video, sees it much differently.
Is this a rush to judgment, as he says?
TIFFANY CRUTCHER, SISTER OF TERENCE CRUTCHER: Well, if it was turned around and if it was you or I or anybody else that would have shot a police officer, then it wouldn't have been a rush to judgment. Get them, we need to get them, throw away the key.
But because it's average blow jaw, my brother, you know, a bad dude, oh, there's a rush to judgment. He shouldn't have been shot down. It's not a rush to judgment at all.
SIDNER: The reference to "Bad dude," from someone in a police helicopter on the day of the shooting.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That looks like a bad dude.
SIDNER: Officer Shelby's attorney says his client didn't hear that comment, but feared for her life.
SCOTT WOOD, ATTORNEY FOR TULSA OFFICER BETTY SHELBY: Based on her passed experience in training, this person posed an immediate threat of harm to him or to her and everyone present. And she thought if she didn't take action right then, everyone would be in peril of serious bodily harm or death.
SIDNER: Officer Shelby's attorney says she thought Crutcher was reaching into his vehicle, while refusing to comply with her orders to get on the ground.
The Crutcher's attorney says he couldn't have reached into the vehicle because the window was closed.
The district attorney's lead investigator says Shelby had already cleared that vehicle without finding a weapon.
Court papers say she approached the vehicle and cleared the driver's side front and then proceeded towards the passenger side of the vehicle.
And Crutcher's sister now telling CNN something that has not been revealed publicly before.
CRUTCHER: We clearly saw how slowly he was moving and people don't know this about my brother. My brother was disabled. My brother had a prosthetic eye. My brother had hearing loss. You know, we have to ask Terence, Terence, over and over again, because he can't hear.
SIDNER: Bad eyesight, poor hearing, and Crutcher said he was simply doing what he was taught to do by his father, attempting to put his hands on the car and wait for police. Instead, he was killed. He had just left school.
CRUTCHER: He wanted to make us proud. He wanted to do something bigger. He wanted to grow. He wanted to become a better person. He wanted to be better. And he didn't want this. He didn't ask for this. And so, that's what I think about. Sorry. I'm going to miss him.
SIDNER: Sara Sidner, CNN, Tulsa, Oklahoma.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: A lot to discuss with the panel. Joining me again, David Klinger, Cedric Alexander, Van Jones and Laura Coates.
Laura, the affidavit in Officer Shelby's manslaughter charged said that she, "Reacted unreasonably by escalating the situation." And if she became, "Emotionally involved to the point that she overreacting," were you surprised that a charge came so quickly less than a week after the shooting?
COATES: I wasn't surprised that a charge came so quickly nor the actual charge that it was. Because I would have been surprised had they charged her with first-degree murder or homicide, a much higher charge. That would have shown there was some type of premeditation and not kind of a deference to officers who don't intend necessarily to go in their daily tasks and commit murder.
This was looked at as a lapse of judgment, a rush to judgment, ironically, as was discussed in the pre-video here.
The person being judged for the rush to judgment was actually Ms. Shelby, and that is why she was charged.
And think about Tulsa, this is an area where we already have a record where there's a proactive prosecutor involved in Oklahoma and Tulsa, specifically where you had volunteer officer baits just a year ago ...
COATES: ... who was tried and convicted for the same charge for mistaking his gun for a teaser. So, I'm not surprised that we have a proactive prosecutor here.
COOPER: David, it also says the charge that she was, "In fear of her life and thought that Mr. Crutcher was going to kill her," couldn't that be used to justify deadly force?
[21:35:00] KLINGER: She can raise that claim, but as I've said on other CNN shows, this is a stinker. It doesn't make sense.
Now, there may be something that we're not seeing, because when the helicopter loops and you've got the vehicle in between the helicopter and where the shooting goes down, there could have been something happening. But there was nothing on that video that I saw that made much sense to me from the way that the officers approached to the way that they were treated. It just -- I'm befuddled.
COOPER: What do you mean it's a stinker, it doesn't make sense? You mean, it doesn't make sense that she shot?
KLINGER: It doesn't make sense to me. You should be able to handle something like this where -- it's not a dynamic situation where someone's moving towards you. The person is in fact moving away, the arms are up. You should be able to figure out some way, unless he did something at that door or he's actually reaching in and arming himself, that would be an appropriate time to use deadly force.
But short of that, it doesn't make any sense to me. COOPER: Cedric, what Crutcher's family told Sara Sidner about him, that he only had one eye and had a poor hearing, does that factor into the case against Officer Shelby?
ALEXANDER: Well, she didn't know that coming up on him, of course. There was no way for her to know that.
But, you know, this particular case, if she was indicted this quickly, I'm going to make the assumption that there was just clear evidence and probable cause very early on to suggest that this officer violated the law. I don't think it's going to be considered a rush to judgment.
What I think it's going to be is not a delay in judgment where the facts are there, it is clear, and I'm going to be confident enough that that district attorney made a decision based on the evidence that was presented to him and it was whole and it was done in a manner and a timeframe in which they felt was appropriate.
COOPER: And Van, as far as community reaction, just three days after the shooting, Tulsa authorities released the chopper video, the dash cam video from three different cop cars, audio of police radio traffic, 911 calls. I mean, we even hear that in the chopper, you know, somebody saying that that guy looks like a bad dude or words, those effect. The officer has been charged.
Obviously, you don't want to bring charges just to mitigate a potentially bad reaction from protesters, but the differences between Charlotte and Tulsa do seem pretty stark?
JONES: Well, very stark. And again, you have to give some lenience here. I do think that because there's -- there are many, many more -- it looks like many more officers involved. You may want to hold that videotape back a little bit to get a better outcome.
Let me say a couple of things. One, both of these cases, they have something in common now, which is this idea of disability. It's apparently, in one shooting, you have someone with a brain injury who can't comply. Another one, someone is hearing impaired, they can't comply.
If you are black and disabled, another or somebody is days after a car crash, maybe they can't comply. If you are African-American and you cannot comply, deadly force will be applied against you, because the assumption is always, you're a bad dude. That looks like a bad dude.
So that is something I think we've got to start taking more seriously, how these factors come together.
I also just want to -- there's an elephant in the room here. This is a female police officer. And I just want to point out that sometimes you have a clash of stereotypes. You have the bad dude and the panicked woman.
And I just want to make sure that we do wait to get all the facts in here, because it could be that some officers are willing to throw another officer under the bus because she's a woman. I'm not saying I believe that, I just want to make sure that we're looking at all the facts here. There could be a clash of stereotypes. Nothing I saw justified that shooting.
I think probably the other officers said it wasn't justified, that's why you got discharge, but you could have a clash of stereo types.
COOPER: Yeah. It's good to look at every angle. Thanks everyone. I appreciate it.
Just ahead, we're going to shift gears, look ahead to Monday's presidential debate. What are Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump doing to prepare for their first face-off? What should they be doing? We'll talk to some experts, ahead.
[21:42:18] COOPER: Protest continuing for the fourth night in Charlotte. We're seeing them in Atlanta, as well. As we reported earlier, Secretary Clinton is planning a visit to Charlotte on Sunday. Donald Trump is planning to visit as well. A visit to Charlotte would take them away from their debate prep for the big even on Monday night. Both candidates are said to be preparing in markedly different ways.
Mr. Trump is said to be strategizing with key advisers while maintaining an active campaign travel schedule, while Secretary Clinton has been largely out of sight, prepping at her home in Chappaqua, New York.
The expectations are certainly high and we wanted to know what should both candidates be doing over the next few days.
I'm joined by former Jeb Bush campaign spokesman, Tim Miller, Democratic Campaign Veteran, Bob Shrum, who advised John Kerry and Al Gore. Also with us, former U.S. Senator Judd Gregg, who played a crucial role in debate preparations for George W. Bush and Eli Attie, former Chief Speechwriter for the Gore campaign.
Senator Gregg, I want to begin with you. You actually played both Al Gore and John Kerry in debate preparations with George W. Bush. Can you explain the contingencies that you run through during these final days and what you expect the Clinton and Trump campaigns are doing or should be doing tonight?
JUDD GREGG, FORMER U.S. SENATOR: We did everything. I mean, there was virtually no stone left unturned relative to what we thought Al Gore would say, how we thought he would deal with an issue, how we thought he would try to go on the offensive against the then-Governor Bush, and he, of course, was a very aggressive debater.
You know, basically, I studied for months what he said, how he said it, and tried to replicate that and not ad lib it, because it was -- basically I wanted to repeat what Gore was saying, so that the then- governor could hear what Gore was saying in the right context.
COOPER: And Tim, I mean, you saw firsthand what Donald Trump did to your candidate, Jeb Bush, on the debate stage.
TIM MILLER, FORMER JEB BUSH CAMPAIGN SPOKESMAN: Yeah.
COOPER: Is that the Donald Trump you expect to show up against Hillary Clinton?
MILLER: I don't for two reasons. One, I think the worst moments of his primary debate was when he took on Carly Fiorina. The different animal trying to bully around a woman, you can come off as demeaning and misogynistic. And when Trump tried that against Fiorina in the primary debates, it didn't work.
What I bet Roger Ailes in his debate prep folks are telling him is, come off as surprisingly gracious and seemed presidential. The question is whether he's going to be able to pull that off, I'm skeptical.
COOPER: Bob, then if you're advising Hillary Clinton, do you -- and Donald Trump is trying to come off as presidential, do you try to kind of poke him? I mean, not physically, obviously, but sort of try to get him riled up?
BOB SHRUM, ADVISED GORE, KERRY CAMPAIGN: But not in an obvious way. If you're obvious about it, I think you'll pay a price. I think you can bother him by almost -- you can say something perfectly reasonable that gets under his skin and he has a really bad reaction.
[21:04:59] But I think instead of spending all their time on that, I hope that what they're doing is thinking about the moments they want to create, thinking about the strategy, and thinking about something that most people don't necessarily understand, which is that framing the debate on your terms is more important than anything else.
COOPER: What do you mean?
SHRUM: Well, JFK in his opening statement in 1960 framed the debate. And Nixon, who had won the coin toss and chose to go second foolishly did nothing but rebut what Kennedy had said, and in the process, repeat it. So what you want to do is get your message frame out there.
COOPER: Eli, you say that if you combined Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump into one candidate they'd be the perfect debater. What do you mean by that?
ELI ATTIE, FORMER GORE SPEECHWRITER: I think that's right. I think that, you know, Hillary really is good government and Donald Trump is good television. You know, and I think her goal in the debate should be all about style, because she's really been preparing her whole life for this moment. She knows the issues. She has enormous experience. She knows how to talk about anything related to policy. It's about her affect. It's about whether she can connect. Whereas Trump, I don't think he's preparing for the debate now. I mean, that's the thing. He's kind of prep-resistant. I was reading this morning that his advisers can't even get him to stand at a lectern and they're worried about his ability to listen for 90 minutes. MILLER: That sounds like sin to me. I think -- yeah, I think ...
MILLER: ... lowering the bars. Yeah, lowering the bars at the floor.
SHRUM: Huge amount of spin in here. I think Trump has been prepping. I think they've been doing it in a serious way, just as I think it spin when the Clinton people won't tell us who's playing Donald Trump. They picked a Donald Trump three months ago.
COOPER: Right. Senator Gregg, I think I talked to Stuart Stevens a while back. And I want to ask you about something that he said. Because that famous moment in 2000, when Al Gore kind of invaded George W. Bush's personal space walking across the stage to him. I understand that you actually -- when you were Gore, and as you said, you'd watched a lot of his debating, he was an aggressive debater, you'd actually run through that possibility in rehearsals. How did you -- I mean was it just from watching past debates, you knew he might do that?
GREGG: Well, I knew Al and I'd also watched his debate style. And he was always on the offensive. And not to be too denigrating, but Al really thought he was superior to George W. Bush. And one of the ways he felt he could express it was to physically get in his space and look down on him because he was bigger than he was and try to help him of an answer. So, I thought he would do that, and we did practice that actually in debate prep. But we only did it once, because the Governor's reaction, soon to become president, was the exact same as on the stage, which was he looked at me as if I was, you know, with a bemused smile then moved on to the answer.
My experience in these debates, the person who wins is the person who establishes himself with the American people toward the audience, this can be a huge audience, as being one reasonably likable. And in this case, that's going to be a very big hurdle, because both are fairly disliked.
And secondly, one who shows that they're willing to lead this country in a positive direction and people sense that about them. If you win on those two accounts, if you're more likable than your opponent and you show that you're a leader who wants to lead the country in a positive direction, you're going to win the debate, you probably going to win the election. And that's -- that I think is where people have to focus their energies when they're getting ready for these debate. How do you project that?
In Hillary's case, it's a big issue, because of her -- because of the challenges that she has on the ethical side. In Trump's case, it's a big issue, because he's so erratic.
COOPER: You know, Eli, I talked to, I think with James Follows from The Atlantic the other night who just wrote this long article about debates and looking back debates. And one of the things he said is you can actually watch debates and perhaps they're best watched with a sound down. And a lot of it has to do with how people respond to things. And it goes to the Senator's point about how Governor Bush responded to Al Gore approaching him, just kind of laughing it off. Ronald Reagan saying, you know, there you go again and kind of, you know, kind of confidently brushing off Jimmy Carter, and Jimmy Carter kind of looking peeved about it. Do you think there's something to that that sort of body language and how people respond to stuff? Is it almost as important as what they say?
ATTIE: Well, I think it's certainly as important. You know, this is, to some degree, for voters who are deciding who to vote for, it's a bit of an audition. Who do you want to invite into your home every night for the next four years as a kind of -- voting for president is a very personal choice. It's a bit like choosing a new T.V. character in your life. And I think that, you know, while Trump has a kind of a raw authenticity, I don't think he radiates -- I don't think he puts people at ease. I think the people who want to hurl a Molotov cocktail into the White House, he's got their support already. And I think for him to transcend that and to expand his vote, he's got to reach out. He's got to seem more presidential. He's got to seem more temperamentally fit.
I actually think that the bar is so incredibly low for Hillary Clinton right now, unfairly low, but, you know, if she doesn't come across as a dissembling robot with circuit boards kind of spilling out of her, I think she'll cross that bar. I mean, she is a warm person and a smart person and a genuine person. I've worked around her. And I just think that she doesn't come across the way she's been caricatured.
[21:05:01] COOPER: Gentlemen, thank you for casting (ph) discussion. Tim and Bob, thank you.
SHRUM: Thank you.
COOPER: Appreciate it. Senator and Eli, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
Earlier, we reported that Hillary Clinton was planning to go Charlotte this Sunday, we just got word that she has postpone that trip after speaking with community leaders. The mayor on this program had also asked that the trip be postponed.
Clinton has now tentatively planning to go to Charlotte next Sunday instead.
Coming up, in the season premiere of "Parts Unknown" this weekend, Anthony Bourdain slurps noodles with President Obama in Vietnam. Anthony and I sit down and talked about the new season. We're going to slurp some food, maybe some noodles too in this segment, coming up. I tried liver for the first time actually. That's next.
COOPER: Anthony Bourdain is back, Sunday, with the new season of "Parts Unknown". In the first episode, he travels to the capital of Vietnam and has a meal there with President Obama. Anthony and I recently sat down at the Takashi, an amazing restaurant here in New York to talk about it. (BEGIN VIDEO)
COOPER: And so, this upcoming episode is in one of my favorite cities in Hanoi. I went to school in Hanoi. I went to the University of Hanoi for six months back in the last six months of the U.S. embargo, basically in '91. There were no cars in the city.
ANTHONY BOURDAIN, "PARTS UNKNOWN" HOST: Right.
COOPER: It's completely changed now.
BOURDAIN: You know, Hanoi has changed, but the bones are still there. I mean, the things that you probably loved about the place are still there, the French architecture and the boulevards, the smell of Vietnam that grabs you and keeps you forever.
COOPER: And although like the food stands on the streets.
BOURDAIN: The food stands, the sweet culture, the sensibility, the colors.
COOPER: And you sat down with President Obama. You went on to a meal with President Obama.
[21:05:02] How cool was that?
BOURDAIN: We've been seeing -- really planning this for sometime, colluding. No one knew. Rich (ph) didn't know. The camera people didn't know. Very few people outside of the small group of the White House knew. We knew we're going to do something and when we heard that the President was planning ...
COOPER: Whose idea was it? Was it your idea?
BOURDAIN: The White House called.
COOPER: Really? They're like, we like the show and we'd love to have President do something with you?
BOURDAIN: I don't know the exact wording.
BOURDAIN: But for whatever reason, they seemed to -- he seemed willing to play and my feeling was, if we're going to do this, we should do it right. I mean we shouldn't be sitting at a banquet room in the Hilton. We should do what we do. We'll just hang out in some working-class place.
COOPER: So, did people in the restaurant know he's about to pop in?
BOURDAIN: No one knew ever that, you know, in five minutes the President is going to -- the President of the United States is going to roll up.
COOPER: So, did people flip out? BOURDAIN: They flipped. And really one of the great -- one of the great things that came out of it was the reaction of ordinary Vietnamese, some people -- are you not loving your liver? But it's good for your, like my mother used to say as she approaches to something terrible (ph).
COOPER: I've never had liver before. I didn't know the taste.
BOURDAIN: No. But this covers no surprise.
COOPER: I don't know what that liver is (ph). I know people -- yeah -- I love the tartar. Oh, that's incredible.
BOURDAIN: I've never seen a guy enjoy a cold beer in a little plastic stool more than President Obama, by the way.
COOPER: I can't wait to see that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: It's going to be a great episode. Tune in for "Parts Unknown", Sunday 9:00 here on CNN.
We'll also be here Sunday night for a live edition of "360" at 8:00, looking ahead to the next, to Monday's presidential debate. I hope you join us for that. We'll be right back.