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London Terror Attack; Details on FBI Probe; Health Care Insurance Bill. Aired 12-1a ET
Aired March 23, 2017 - 00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
 ISHA SESAY, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Isha Sesay in Los Angeles.
HANNAH VAUGHAN JONES, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Hannah Vaughan Jones here in London.
We begin this hour with chilling new video of the terror attack outside parliament just a couple hundred meters from where I'm standing. Four people have died, at least 40 others are wounded, some of them seriously.
But the video itself shows the attacker driving across Westminster Bridge, mowing down pedestrians on his way. You can see in the video one woman jumped from the bridge into the River Thames. She was later pulled from the water alive. But we understand she has been seriously injured.
The attacker then crashed his SUV vehicle into the gates just around parliament before fatally stabbing police officer Keith Palmer -- Keith Palmer, who you can see here in this photograph.
Well, the authorities think they know who the attacker was though they're not releasing his name to us just yet. They do, however, say the attack is likely Islamist-related terrorism.
CNN's Nic Robertson has more.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Terror unfolding by the minute in the shadow of Big Ben Wednesday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This house is now suspended --
ROBERTSON: The heart of London's government suddenly suspended. Parliament locked down just after 2:40 p.m. local time amid reports of an attack.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All I could hear is bang, bang, bang -- like loud.
ROBERTSON: At 2:52, parliamentarian Grant Shapps tweeted "Walking through Commons Cloisters to vote. Heard four shots. Police had members of Parliament at ground and crawled to cover." Officers moved swiftly to secure MPs indoors. According to the leader of the House of Commons at least one assailant entered the gates of London's iconic government building then stabbed and killed one police officer before being shot by police. One British lawmaker rushed to join first aid responders to aid the injured officer.
All of this as Prime Minister Theresa May was in the building making her weekly visit to the heart of British government. She was swiftly evacuated to a secure area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please go. We're moving back again, please.
ROBERTSON: Jut outside, possible clues to the assailant's path to Parliament.
MARK ROWLEY, ACTING DEPUTY COMM. METROPOLITAN POLICE: The attack started when a car was driven over Westminster Bridge, hitting and injuring a number of members of the public, also including three police officers. The car then crashed near to parliament.
ROBERTSON: A large SUV crumpled against the landmark's perimeter fence. Officials saying the armed attacker ran from the scene and through the gates.
Nearby on Westminster Bridge, another crime scene, multiple victims with catastrophic injuries were left lying on the pavement.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bodies -- literally. Ten -- ten bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At least ten to 12 bodies.
ROBERTSON: At least one female victim was pulled injured but alive from the Thames River. Former Polish foreign minister Rado Sikorski captured the immediate aftermath of the attack on his cell phone.
RADO SIKORSKI, FORMER POLISH FOREIGN MINISTER: I saw in all five people down, mowed down by a car including one person bleeding heavily from the head.
ROBERTSON: Many questions still unanswered as authorities begin searching through clues. The injured and affected still trying to make sense of it all.
Nic Robertson, CNN -- London.
JONES: Well, the whole area is still cordoned off though around me. This is of course, the heart of British political life.
I want to bring in our Isa Soares who's live for us now on White Hall at the moment. Isa -- the prime minister held a Cobra meeting yesterday. But what are we likely to see happen as light starts to dawn this morning?
ISA SOARES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Londoners for sure are trying to get on, Hannah, with their lives as usual -- getting on buses, getting on trains, you know.
Just in front of me you're seeing traffic at this time going on, live. But of course, behind me the heart of democracy right in the heart of London, if I move out of the way so you can see.
[00:04:54] This is White Hall. This leads to houses of parliament -- Hannah. That is still closed up, still locked down. We can't get in to 10 Downing Street or this area that leads to the Houses of Parliament off to the bridge where the assailant mowed down all those people. That is still very closely locked down.
Of course, as you clearly stated, we heard from Prime Minister Theresa May yesterday who gave a message of resilience basically saying London will not be cowed to any of these attacks. And she also went on to praise the bravery, the exceptional, Hannah -- those were her words, of the men and women who every day run to put their lives at risk for us, run to danger for us.
And she also -- we also know that the level -- the terror level is at a high -- it's at severe. That hasn't changed. But Londoners today, trying to pick up the pieces, remaining vigilant as they've been asked but pretty much as a city fighting on saying we will not be cowed down to any terror -- Hannah.
JONES: Yes. And defiance, of course, in the face of this threat. It's a long time since London has faced such a threat as this. I understand though that both houses of parliament, the House of Lords and the House of Commons are preparing to sit at the usual time as usual today, again in defiance of the threat that they're facing.
SOARES: Absolutely. Absolutely. They're not -- we've learned that yesterday. They will continue -- both houses will open, parliament will resume. They will go on to their work as we'd expect.
The only change we will see as you can see clearly here is the area cordoned off, the investigation still ongoing. There was one expected -- we were expecting to see the queen today to open a new wing of -- here in Scotland Yard. That has been postponed for obvious reasons -- security at high alert here.
But other than that, Londoners going about their daily business, pretty much very defiant in what has happened. This is horrific attack that had happened here right in the heart of London against democracy and the very values we all hold dear -- Hannah.
JONES: And Isa -- we are hoping to hear from Scotland Yard in the coming hours, of course, with the latest on the investigation. But London and the metropolitan police force which patrols London will be very well-versed in planning at least for these kinds of incidents.
I think it was just on the weekend that they had some sort of drill where they prepared for exactly this type of attack. So one would think, at least, that Scotland Yard backing itself in the way that it handled this terror atrocity so far.
SOARES: Yes, absolutely and quite rightly so. And many Londoners praising the services of pretty much the police, the armed forces, the ambulances here, people who have come to the scene.
Like you clearly stated, Hannah we are being told time and time again, this is a long-time coming. They've been preparing for this. Of course, this sort of attack which is (AUDIO GAP) -- a terrorist gunned down so many families (inaudible) no one saw that coming. That's so hard to prevent, isn't it -- Hannah?
But also coming on the same day of the Brussels attack -- that obviously hitting a nerve right here in the heart of London. But Scotland Yard clearly had been preparing for this and why this area has so many -- teeming really with police officers -- Hannah.
JONES: Isa -- thanks very much indeed. Isa Soares there live for us, nearly on White Hall. Of course, this whole area around me at the moment in Westminster has been cordoned off ever since that atrocity yesterday afternoon. It happened around half past two, closer to 3:00 local time here in London.
The latest we understand is that the assailant, they do -- the Scotland Yard do believe they know who the assailant is. The identity of this man has not been revealed yet but we may hear more throughout the course of the day.
Many questions still unanswered. Was he working alone? Was he a lone wolf? What was his motivation? As things stand no group has claimed responsibility for this attack although the Metropolitan police and the intelligence services have revealed that they do believe that this is an Islamist terror-related atrocity.
Plenty more from London, the heart of London and the heart of British political life throughout the morning. In the meantime, I'll toss back to Isha Sesay, my colleague in Los Angeles -- Isha.
SESAY: Thank you very much -- Hannah.
And back in Washington, we've got exclusive details about the FBI investigation on possible links between Trump campaign officials and Russia.
Also ahead President Trump's pledge to repeal and replace Obamacare faces its first major hurdle in Congress. Will have enough votes?
[00:09:55] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SESAY: Hello everyone.
We are following breaking news out of London -- a terror attack that killed four people including a police officer.
JONES: It struck here at the very seat of British power -- Parliament. Police say the attacker drove through a crowd of people on a bridge wounding dozens before then crashing into a fence near the Parliament Building. He then got out and stabbed an unarmed police officer.
We know that that officer was 48-year-old Keith Palmer, a 15-year veteran of the Metropolitan Police force here in London. Palmer died in that attack along with three other people.
SESAY: Turning now to events here in the United States -- developments in the FBI investigation. A possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia are emerging at a dizzying pace.
First, the House Intelligence Committee chairman Devin Nunes revealed communications between President Trump and his associates may have been intercepted by legal surveillance of foreign targets. Nunes, a Trump transition member briefed the President and spoke with reporters without sharing that information with his Democratic counterpart on the committee.
Adam Schiff blasted Nunes saying his actions cast doubt on how independent the committee's investigation really could be.
Then Pamela Brown and Evan Perez had this exclusive report with our own Anderson Cooper.
PAMELA BROWN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson -- the FBI has information that indicates associates of President Donald Trump communicated with suspected Russian operatives to possibly coordinate the release of information damaging to Hillary Clinton's campaign.
U.S. officials told us FBI director James Comey made this bombshell announcement, as you'll recall, Monday before Congress that the FBI is investigating the Trump campaign's ties to Russia.
So the FBI is now reviewing this information which includes human intelligence, travel, business and phone records as well as accounts of in person meetings, according to the officials we have spoken with.
And the information is raising the suspicions of FBI counter intelligence investigators that the coordination may have taken place though officials we have spoken with cautioned that this information was not conclusive and that this investigation is ongoing.
The FBI would not comment, nor would the White House though Trump officials have denied there is any evidence -- Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: So, I mean, Evan -- this gives more insight into what Director Comey knew when he spoke on Monday.
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right -- Anderson. If you recall, in addition to Comey saying that the investigation includes looking at connections of Trump associates, he also explained what it means that the investigation is actually being done.
Take a listen.
[00:14:58] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't you need some action or some information besides just attending a meeting having been paid to attend a conference that a picture was taken? Or that you traveled to a country before you're open to investigation for counter intelligence by the FBI?
JAMES COMEY, FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION DIRECTOR: The standard is -- I think there's a couple of different at play, a credible allegation of wrongdoing or reasonable basis to believe that an American maybe acting as an agent of a foreign power.
PEREZ: One law enforcement official said that the information in hand suggests quote, "people connected to the campaign were in contact" and it appeared that they were giving the thumbs' up to release information when it was ready. But other U.S. officials who we spoke to said it's premature to draw that inference from the information that they've gathered so far.
At this point it's largely circumstantial. The FBI cannot yet prove that collusion actually took place but the information suggesting collusion is now a large part of the focus of this investigation according to the officials we've talked to.
COOPER: And Pamela -- what sort of coordination is under investigation.
BROWN: So we're told mostly the FBI is focused on the stolen and published e-mails by WikiLeaks including the DNC and Clinton campaign's John Podesta.
Now U.S. officials said the information being investigated was not drawn from the leaked dossier of unverified information compiled by that former British intelligence official, compiled for Trump's political opponents.
Though the dossier also suggested coordination between Trump campaign associates and Russian operatives -- Anderson.
COOPER: So Evan -- do we know who is being investigated?
PEREZ: Well, the sources we talked to would not say who is connected -- these people who were connected to Trump that are being investigated here. But we do know that the FBI was already investigating four former Trump campaign associates -- Michael Flynn, Paul Manafort, Roger Stone and Carter Page -- for contacts with Russians known to U.S. intelligence. Now all four of those people have denied improper contacts.
Anderson -- one of the interesting things is that we have some obstacles now in the way of the FBI investigation. The FBI is facing the fact that, you know, in trying to find this conclusive evidence, they're facing the fact that communication between Trump's associates and these Russians have ceased in recent months given all the public focus on these Russia ties and the Trump campaign.
And then some of these Russian officials have also changed their methods of communications making monitoring that much more difficult according to the officials that we talked to.
(END VIDEOTAPE) SESAY: There is so much to get to, so much to dig into. Joining me now to do that -- radio talk show host Ethan Bearman and Jim Lacy. He's the author of "Taxifornia" and a Trump supporter.
Gentlemen -- welcome. God to have you with us.
ETHAN BEARMAN, RADIO HOST: Thank you.
SESAY: All right.
Well, let's remind everyone first off, of the announcement the FBI chief made on Monday during those hearings. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COMEY: The FBI as part of our counter intelligence mission is investigating the Russian government's efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election. And that includes investigating the nature of any links between individuals associated with the Trump campaign and the Russian government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SESAY: That was the bombshell that Comey dropped on Monday. After that the White House spokesman Sean Spicer said there is no evidence that suggested that any collusion took place.
James -- first to you, from the reporting that our Pam Brown and Evan Perez have shared with us it would appear that that isn't actually the case, that he wasn't actually being accurate.
JAMES LACY, TRUMP SUPPORTER: Well, I think that there is some inaccuracy in the report tonight with respect to Devin Nunes in not talking to Adam Schiff. You know, I want to take a step back and I want to frame the question a little different way.
What we heard about this morning from Congressman Devin Nunes, the head of the Intelligence Committee, relates to individuals' privacy rights. He reported that we had a situation where a private citizen, although associated with the Trump campaign was surveilled on information that had absolutely no foreign intelligence value. And that it was --
SESAY: Not to cut you off --
LACY: -- widely distributed --
SESAY: Not to cut you off, James, but specifically --
LACY: -- within the government.
SESAY: -- not to cut you off but specifically referring to what Evan Perez and our own Pam Brown shared earlier on about this new information that he had on the investigations of possible collusion within the Trump campaign. LACY: Well, it's curious but that information came just hours after Devin Nunes announced that there had been inappropriate surveillance and inappropriate dissemination of information.
SESAY: What are you suggesting?
LACY: Well, what I'm suggesting is, is that there is more than a coincidence that U.S. officials released information to CNN that would somehow step back on the initial information.
You know, look -- you know, what is the fruit of the poisonous tree? What is this investigation all about? This investigation is about whether or not the Trump campaign had links to Russians who hacked the DNC. And what did that hacking accomplish?
[00:20:01] It revealed that journalists, including journalists at CNN, cheated. That they went against their journalistic ethics and they gave information over to the Democrats to help Hillary Clinton. Now that's it.
SESAY: But what it revealed --
LACY: This is part of it.
SESAY: Ethan -- you jump in here.
BEARMAN: Classic example of attacking the messenger. The information -- the person who released the information as opposed to the information itself.
The information itself is extremely damaging and it's actually rather ironic that Republicans who typically would be the ones that will want to fight communist Russia and an autocrat like a Vladimir Putin -- they've been very strong about that in the past -- suddenly are passive about the fact that there are connections here. We have four officials who have lied about their contacts.
What makes this --
LACY: No, there's no evidence of that.
BEARMAN: Of course there is.
BEARMAN: They just were named in the report.
LACY: There's no evidence --
BEARMAN: Paul Manafort --
LACY: There no evidence. SESAY: Paul Manafort --
LACY: There's no evidence of that.
BEARMAN: Attorney General Sessions himself lied twice under oath.
BEARMAN: Lied under oath.
LACY: No, he did not.
BEARMAN: There were no contacts, he said.
LACY: Oh, wow.
SESAY: Let him finish the point.
BEARMAN: So the other aspect of this, that is rather ironic is when you talk about a foreign power interfering in U.S. elections that is non-partisan that an American citizen would want to get to the bottom of that.
And in this case, suddenly instead of trying to get to the bottom of it, it's misdirections attacking the messenger as opposed to the information.
SESAY: All right.
There's a lot to get to. So I also want to go to the point of Chairman Nunes' disclosures today about communications from the President and his associates getting swept up.
James, to you -- people have suggested that Chairman Nunes had political motivations by coming with this information now and was trying to provide some cover to the White House.
Do you think that was going on?
LACY: You have to look at what his office is. He is the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. He has legal responsibilities to the American people to oversee intelligence.
So what did he do? When he had the information, the first thing that he did, he didn't go to Trump. The first thing he did was he informed the Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan. He then called the CIA director and informed him. He then went to go see the President of the United States.
Why is it important that he should go see the President of the United States about this? Because the President of the United States enforces the intelligence laws of this nation. You know, there's a lot of Eric Snowden type issues involved with the revelation that Congressman Nunes made this morning that our government is surveilling people that they shouldn't be surveilling --
SESAY: Let's be absolutely accurate here for our viewers who maybe haven't been following this as closely as we have.
Chairman Nunes also said that "This is a normal incident of collection --
SESAY: -- based on what I could collect. This appears to be all legally collected foreign intelligence under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act."
LACY: And it was -- Isha. But the problem is, is that the information was disseminated. This is the issue that people are missing in the discussion. This information, even when the intelligence agencies would have known that there was absolutely no foreign intelligence value to it they still went forward and they still put it in reports and they widely disseminated it --
SESAY: We do not know if there was no value.
BEARMAN: No --
LACY: It's two separate issues.
BEARMAN: -- but that is the point.
LACY: You have the issue of Russia --
BEARMAN: Can I just finish on this?
LACY: -- and you have the issue of the leaks? So they're two separate issues.
SESAY: Let him finish his point.
LACY: Please let me finish on this point. That information should not have been disseminated widely within the intelligence community. There should have been a stop to it.
Now, that might be a policy issue but it's certainly something for our government to be looking into. It's certainly something for our Congress to be looking into. And it's certainly something that we should be afraid.
SESAY: All right.
LACY: I mean Big Brother is out there looking at us and this is an example of it.
SESAY: Very quickly -- let Ethan respond to that because the President now sees this as a gift and vindicating him of his wiretap tweet.
BEARMAN: Well, I think to Trump supporters, of course, they'll see it as vindication. And to everybody else who's looking at this rationally, trying to get to the bottom of what is actually happening here.
We need a full investigation. We also need the chairman to follow protocol and involve the entire Intelligence Committee not just the President and the CIA.
SESAY: All right. There's a lot to get to and we'll continue this conversation in the next hour.
But I do want to turn our attention to health care. It could be the beginning of the end for Obamacare. Republican-backed legislation to roll back the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare, is up for a vote in the U.S. House Thursday.
Republicans need at least 216 votes. And so far dozens of them have signaled they will vote against it. To win more support, House leaders now want to eliminate an Obamacare provision that requires insurers to cover maternity care, mental health treatment and prescription drugs.
The bill would eliminate the individual mandate that requires everyone to have health insurance or pay a fine. It would dramatically restructure Medicare, the U.S. government health program for the elderly and disabled.
But we have to point out some popular parts of Obamacare would stay including coverage for pre-existing conditions and allowing children to remain on their parents' health plan up to the age of 26.
[00:25:03] Well, some data for you. According to the Congressional Budget Office, 24 million Americans would lose their health care under the Republican plan.
Let's go back to our guests who are still with me. They haven't strangled each other yet.
Listen, Ethan -- you know, the bottom line is the White House needs this. The White House needs this win. They're whipping up the votes as are the folks on Capitol Hill, trying to get everyone in line. Who needs this win more? Speaker Ryan or President Trump?
BEARMAN: Well, in this case, that's probably Speaker Ryan because if he fails at this, I think that there's a real chance for rebellion. And it's the House Freedom Caucus, the conservative side of the Republican Party, who is fighting this.
Remember they don't need a single Democratic vote as long as they can get Republican votes. And if the House Freedom Caucus -- now the number has changed during the day from 25 to 24 to 23 who are still opposed to it. If it gets to 21, the bill will pass. But if it -- if it fails, that shows that the conservative wing won and Paul Ryan could be in trouble.
SESAY: All right. Well, the White House spokesman Sean Spicer was asked about what comes next if the bill fails. Listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEAN SPICER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There is no plan. I mean this is -- there's Plan A and Plan A. We're going to get this done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SESAY: All right. James -- is this really the end of the line if this dies on the floor on Thursday?
LACY: Well, I don't think it's going to die on the floor on Thursday. But you know --
SESAY: That sounds confident.
LACY: -- seven years ago this month, Obamacare was enacted and you know how many votes they got on the floor? 219 -- they got two more votes than they needed. So we're sort of seeing a repeat here in the repeal and reform of Obamacare.
Look, Obamacare is in a death spiral. It's been really bad for our country. And it was based on false premises by Obama, you know, sort of the first fake news that you could keep your doctor.
SESAY: Are you really going down that road?
LACY: That you could keep -- yes, I am -- you could keep your doctor -- because it's true. You could keep your doctor. You could keep your health plan. And that premiums are going to be lower. None of that came in to being and in fact it's become a huge tax burden. It's got $1 trillion of tax burden if it's not repealed between now and 2020.
And do you know how many people get --
SESAY: All right.
LACY: -- free health care in California now as a result of Obamacare and Medicaid -- free? One-third of the state, 13.5 million -- somebody's got to pay for them.
SESAY: I have to tell you though, as you celebrate the possible passing of this replacement -- repeal and replacement act -- there are those who have a warning for President Trump if indeed that does happen.
Take a listen to Republican Congressman Thomas Massie had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R), KENTUCKY: We're afraid he's a one-term president if this passes. We are trying to save him. The phone calls to my office are running 275 against versus four. Only four votes from my constituents are in favor of this. So this electoral lead voting for this is bad today. And it's going to be really bad in two or three years when the changes start kicking in. And health insurance prices are going through the roof.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SESAY: Ethan -- is Congressman Massie right?
BEARMAN: Yes. I mean it was so fascinating. Again -- Paul Ryan did what was -- I consider to be impossible. He upset everybody. He upset the left. He upset the right. He appeased a few people including President Trump. That's why we can call this Trumpcare.
The problem ultimately with Trumpcare is this. For as much as some Republicans are supporting it, what it never does is ever address the cost side. Why is health care 20 percent of our GDP now? They have failed miserably in addressing the underlying causes.
If I was advising President Trump, I would say please focus on the underlying issues of health, nutrition, diet, exercise. That is why health care is 20 percent and the pharmaceutical industry we have so many issues here that aren't being addressed. And this bill doesn't do anything to solve it.
SESAY: All right. Gentlemen -- James I'll give you a chance to respond to that in the next hour. I want to thank you for the conversation at this point. Thank you.
We're going to toss it back to my colleague, Hannah, who's in London with the latest on that terror attack a few hours ago -- Hannah.
JONES: Isha -- thanks very much. Indeed, yes London is starting to whirl back into life again this morning. It's just coming up to half past four in the morning, local time this Thursday.
Behind me though, as you can see, very little happening. The whole of Parliament is still on lockdown after that terror attack from yesterday.
Coming up we'll have a look at what police and security forces can do to stop vehicle attacks like this one.
[00:29:30] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ISHA SESAY, CNN HOST, NEWSROOM: I'm Isha Sesay in Los Angeles.
HANNAH VAUGHAN JONES, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSROOM: And I'm Hannah Vaughan Jones in London.
British police say they think they know the identity of the man behind that deadly terror attack from yesterday, Wednesday afternoon. But the Metropolitan Police, Scotland Yard are not naming him yet.
The front pages, though, of British newspapers, as you'd imagine, are plastered with headlines about the attack, which, of course, left four people dead and at least 40 others wounded. Many of the wounded still being treated in hospitals in and around the city and we'll update you as soon as we have any more details on their condition.
The Prime Minister Theresa May called the attack sick and depraved and says, "we will never allow evil to drive us apart."
Well, with that in mind, joining me now from Williamsburg, Virginia, former Scotland Yard officer Carlton King; from Tokyo, International Security Director for the Asia-Pacific Foundation, Sajjan Gohel; and from Los Angeles, CNN law enforcement contributor, Steve Moore. Gentlemen, welcome to you all. Thanks for joining us on the program.
Carlton, if I can come to you first with your unique perspective, of course, of knowing the ins and outs of Scotland Yard and the Metropolitan Police force. This is a force which has lost one of its own in this terror attack.
But given the fact that they were on the scene very quickly in the immediate aftermath, how do you gauge the response from the police in London?
CARLTON KING, FORMER SCOTLAND YARD OFFICER: First and foremost, I'd like to say that I'm sorry to hear the death of a colleague and, of course, the individuals who also died or have been injured.
I think that the Met, obviously, have statutory posts there, so officers are stationed all the time, and especially on the entry point. So, in that sense, obviously, as you say, officers were there very, very quickly.
The one problem is, however, is that we still have the situation whereby we have a lot of unarmed officers. In fact, 93% of Metropolitan Police officers and probably about 96% of officers throughout the United Kingdom, with the exception of Northern Kingdom where every officer is armed, are unarmed in our country. And that is a problem, especially when trying to deal with this self-sacrifice terrorism that's going on.
[00:35:11] So, yes, they were on the scene, but unfortunately were unable to carry out any action by themselves. It just happened to be that two officers from the Protection Unit, of which I used to be a part, who were protecting individuals there, happen to be on scene and dealt with the incident. But that shouldn't be the case really.
JONES: Yes. Yes. Carl, interesting you say that about the firearms, of course, because one of the reasons you could argue that there haven't been more incidents like this in London or in the UK is we do have different firearms laws over here than, say, in the United States, for example.
But I want to bring in now Sajjan Gohel, who is in Tokyo for us. Sajjan, the international response has been very quick. We heart in the short term from Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish First Minister, we've also heard from President Trump, and from the French Prime Minister as well.
Lots of words of resolve, of support. But when do those words turn into action and what might that action be from the international community?
SAJJAN GOHEL, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY DIRECTOR FOR THE ASIA-PACIFIC FOUNDATION: Well, one of the problems is the type of attack. You're looking at the fourth incident in eight months where a vehicle has been turned into a lethal weapon to mow down people. It started with the Bastille Day attacks in Nice last year. There was the incident at Ohio State University, followed by the attack at the Christmas marketplace in Berlin, and now tragically London.
This is a tactic that unfortunately terrorists are utilizing. It is very difficult to stop or disrupt. There's very little intelligence to preempt something like this. And what is worrying is that it keeps being used by terrorists that may not even have traveled abroad, but they're getting inspiration online. And it makes the job all that much harder.
The British authorities and the Metropolitan Police especially did everything possible to contain and minimize this and they really must be congratulated for this incident not being bigger than it potentially could have been.
But I'm afraid, we're going to have to accept the reality that incidents like this are becoming like the new normal. It's becoming harder to stop, even though there may be greater will or cooperation.
JONES: Steve Moore, do you agree with that that this attack was almost inevitable, but this is the new normal?
STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: This is a new normal. We've made air travel so secure that it's now prohibitively risky for Al Qaeda or ISIS to attack airliners. So, they're going to the next easiest target.
And, frankly, the world has to change. You can't anymore say that because we have strict gun laws, the police shouldn't have gun laws because you don't have strict knife laws, you don't have strict - you don't have ways to stop - police our vehicles.
And the Metropolitan Police, by the way, are phenomenal at this. They've come up with this plan called - a way to fight marauding attacks. And marauding attacks are these type of things where the first incident is not going to be last incident. And you're going to hear a lot about marauding attacks in the future. And you've got to be willing to assault them with deadly force when it happens.
JONES: This is the problem, though, isn't it? There could be copycat attacks. Perhaps this attack in London was actually a copy of what we saw in Nice, what we saw in Berlin as well.
How do the police actually stop is? Because everyone potentially could have a vehicle and everyone can drive around London and our Parliament here in London happens to be right at the very center of the city and it is very accessible to the public, as it should be. It is a Parliament of the people, for the people.
MOORE: Right. You, obviously, know that, on Westminster Bridge, there's probably a six-inch curb that separates the pedestrian traffic from the traffic lanes. That's going to change. You're going to have steel fencing there soon.
These are the things that are going to change. And in areas where you have high target possibilities, large numbers of people, you're going to have to change your world unfortunately. Just like 20 years ago, you could get on an airliner a lot easier than you can now, you're not going to be able to move through the city in the same way, in any city, the way you used to.
JONES: Right. Carlton King, I wonder if I can bring you back in to talk about Scotland Yard as well. They understand that - they know who the assailant is, his identity, they haven't yet revealed that to us. And does it suggest, though, to you that this man has perhaps been monitored or been under some sort of surveillance for some time?
KING: Yes. Hannah, the situation is, is that the Met and the security service MI5 are probably one of the best in the world at surveilling and observing individuals who are involved or potentially involved in terrorism. The problem is that - are the numbers of individuals who are potentially involved. So, that's the first thing.
[00:40:08] And the capacity to stop attacks before they take place, i.e. to disrupt them, is excellent. However, one attack is going to get through.
So, where we've got a great capacity with surveillance cameras, we've got great capacity with automatic number plate readers and a whole host of technology, when it comes down to it, in the final moments, you have to deal, as the gentleman said before, with the issue of the actual attack and that's - fire has got to be met with fire.
Now, before that, one of the main things that has to take place is we have to make sure that there is no splitting of any part of the society in the United Kingdom. You cannot have people taking into their own hands some activity against Islamic individuals or persons of that faith because that is what the terrorist is looking for.
As for the investigation now, this is another area where the Met is amongst the best in the world. They will investigate this calmly and with great professionalism. About that, there is no doubt. And I would imagine that the -
JONES: And no doubt about that.
KING: - identity is known about already.
JONES: Carlton King, we do have to leave it there. But as you say, we know that the Metropolitan Police will be investigating this with a huge amount of integrity and delicacy as well, especially given the fact that they have lost one of their own officers in this tragedy.
My thanks to all of my guests, Carlton King, Sajjan Gohel, and Steve Moore. Gentlemen, thank you very much indeed.
Well, our special coverage of this London terror attack continues in just a moment. Of course, with the Prime Minister's show of resolve as well.
But, first, here's how London's mayor responded to the attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADIQ KHAN, LONDON MAYOR: Our city remains one of the safest in the world. London is the greatest city in the world and we stand together in the face of those who seek to harm us and destroy our way of life. We always have and we always will. Londoners will never be cowed by terrorism.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[00:45:13] JONES: Hello and welcome back. A warm welcome from a very cold and a blustery London. This is springtime, would you believe it?
We are, of course, following developments here in the center of this capital city from Wednesday's terror attack, just outside the Houses of Parliament, which is just a couple of hundred meters down the road from where I'm standing right now.
Investigators say the assault that killed four people was Islamist inspired. Police believe they do know the identity of the attacker, but so far, they're not releasing those details to us.
US President Donald Trump tweeted this, "Spoke to UK Prime Minister Theresa May today to offer condolences on the terrorist attack in London. She is strong and doing very well."
For her part, Ms. May called the attack "sick and depraved," but she's encouraging Londoners to get back to business as usual.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THERESA MAY, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: Tomorrow morning, Parliament will meet as normal. We will come together as normal and Londoners and others from around the world who have come here to visit this great city will get up and go about their day as normal.
They will board their trains, they will leave their hotels, they will walk these streets, they will live their lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: British Prime Minister there. Well, the Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson, who was in Washington on Wednesday, taking part in a meeting of ministers working to fight ISIS. He was notably absent when a group photograph was taken, although it's not yet clear whether the reason Boris Johnson was out of that photograph was because he left early since because he was being briefed on the terror attack unfolding in London.
Boris Johnson, though, did post this message on Twitter. He said, "Heartbreaking. This is not the first attack on London or our Parliament and won't be the last. But our values will prevail."
And Nigel Farage, the former leader of the UK Independence Party, he's also taken to Twitter to say, "Very upset and depressed by the terrorist attack in Westminster. But, unfortunately, not surprised."
Let's bring in Dominic Thomas now who is Los Angeles for us. Dominic is the chair of the UCLA's Department of French and Francophone Studies. Dominic, one of the reasons why this would be so significant for you, of course, is the fact that we understand there were a number of French students who were struck by that vehicle as it was heading down Westminster Bridge.
What's the latest that you know, if anything, on the well-being of those French students.
DOMINIC THOMAS, CHAIR, UCLA DEPARTMENT OF FRENCH AND FRANCOPHONE STUDIES: Right. Of course, the very nature of the attack and the site at which it took place fits in, of course, with some of these recent attacks and the symbolism of that too.
This is an area that is heavily frequented by tourists and the fact that there were young people there from France, from Romania and from other areas of the world is not surprising.
Of course, in France, there's been tremendous attention on this after the attacks over the last couple of years from the Bataclan attack, the Charlie Hebdo attacks, the Nice attacks and so on. These are really issues that the French people have been thinking about a lot and certainly been talking about a lot in the lead up to the elections in a few weeks' time.
I think what people are finding really striking is the increasing symbolism of these attacks. The Charlie Hebdo attacks, of course, on the satirical newspaper were an attack on sort of questions of freedom of expression.
The 14 July Nice celebration attacks were also highly problematic. And even the Berlin market attack back in December hit to the heart of German society in the way that this attack on Westminster is so highly symbolic and highly symbolic, of course, that young people were there visiting these sites and these institutions.
JONES: Yes. Symbolic as well, of course, because the attack itself happened a year to the day since the Brussels airport attack as well. And it was a Wednesday. It's a very busy time in parliament, aside from the usual tourism traffic, of course, because there is Prime Minister's questions in the Commons. And so, Westminster would have been very, very busy indeed. What do you make, though, of the copycat attacks and the likelihood that this may have been inspired somehow by what we saw happen in Nice?
THOMAS: Right. It's interesting because, of course, since the 9/11 attacks, the Madrid attacks, both in the United Kingdom and also at the European Union level, you have organizations, for example, the European Union after the Madrid bombings of 2004, appointed a counterterrorism coordinator in a model that's very close to contest the counterterrorism strategy organization in the United Kingdom, organized around these four pillars of protection and prevention and also pursuing and responding to these kind of attacks.
[00:50:21] But in this particular case, as much as the intelligence services and the counterterrorism organizations have been working, what we're seeing are either lone individuals engaging in these kinds of operations, who are willing to die in the process, using vehicles.
We saw this in Nice, we saw this in Berlin and we're seeing this now in London. It's very difficult to prevent these kinds of attacks from happening.
JONES: Dominic, we do have to leave it there. Dominic Thomas there live for us in Los Angeles. It's just coming up to 10 PM your time. Just coming up to 5 AM here with me in London.
After the break, you'll hear from people who witnessed the deadly attack near the Houses of Parliament.
KATE RILEY, CNN ANCHOR, SPORT NOW: I'm Kate Riley with your CNN world sport headlines. With the Premier League taking a break, it was the turn of the international football fixtures to take center stage.
Germany hosting England in a friendly endowment. These two have always had an intense rivalry over the years. Adam Lallana came closest to breaking the deadlock in the first half by hitting the woodwork with his strike, but man of the moment Lukas Podolski scored a brilliant 25-yard strike in his final international match. One-nil, it ends on the night.
Meanwhile, it was a poignant night in Germany as the country said goodbye to the former Arsenal striker Podolski by naming him captain. Podolski finishes with 131 caps, 49 goals, he's also a World Cup Champion, winning the Brazil tournament in 2014. Next season, he's off to play in Japan for Vissel Kobe.
It may still be over a year away, but Brazil now could book their place at next year's Russia World Cup this week, with victory over Uruguay. Tite's side are leading the way in the South American qualifying group after six straight wins, in which they scored 17 goals, but conceded just one.
They'll be missing Manchester City's injured striker Gabriel Jesus, but Uruguay will be without the services of Luis Suarez. And that's the look at all the sports headlines. I'm Kate Riley.
JONES: Welcome back to us here live in the heart of London where, of course, we are reporting on that terror atrocity from yesterday where we saw people mowed down on Westminster Bridge, one of the most iconic central bridges in London.
[00:55:10] And then, of course, a police officer was killed whilst trying to protect the Houses of Parliament. The investigation is ongoing, of course.
And London now waking up - starting to wake up. It's just coming up to 5 o'clock in the morning local time, with this atrocity really just starting to dawn on people, of course. And, of course, the impact that that will have across the world, particularly in Europe and on the Mainland Europe where these sort of atrocities have been all too frequent in recent years.
Well, the streets around the Houses of Parliament would have, at the time, been teeming with people. It's because they were politicians, obviously, around Parliament itself, it was Prime Minister's question time, which would have happened just a couple of hours before the attack. Journalists would've been teeming around. And, of course, tourists. It is one of the most popular sites, the Houses of Parliament, Big Ben and the like, all so popular on the tourist trail for those who come to London.
And many, of course, those people who did come to London to visit the Houses of Parliament in Westminster would have been eyewitnesses to this atrocity. And here are few of their stories.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIR GERALD HOWARTH, BRITISH MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT (voice-over): Well, the situation here is that, the House of Commons was in the business of voting. So, most members of Parliament were here. The setting was suspended. It is suspended. We are locked in as we get reports of what is going on.
Obviously, it's very, very serious indeed. It's (INAUDIBLE) just what is going on (INAUDIBLE) when we face this kind of terrorism and we have to live with it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were really crawling around the pitch. It was bodies literally - must have been about 10 bodies.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At least, 10, 12 bodies, (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In different places along the pitch.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) shot, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It must have been terrifying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was horrendous.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely horrendous.
CHARLIE COOPER, UK REPORTER, POLITICO (voice-over): We actually saw both of those incidents from our office windows. We were just shaken up by that, as you can imagine. And our thoughts are with the police officer who has been stabbed and anyone else who's been hurt in this horrible incident. The entire parliamentary press gallery is up here on lockdown. We're not allowed to move from our offices.
ALAN PARRY, EYEWITNESS: The next thing, of course, was chaos. Tourists, who frequent that area, of course, were panicking and people shouting, Oh my God, and running in all directions. And then the police arrived, including armed policemen as well, and telling everyone to clear away, clear away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I walked past about 9 -
(END VIDEO CLIP)